Air Quality Consultation - Help to keep Classics in London

[stephendell]

EDIT THE SECOND CONSULATION IS NOW ONLINE

TO SAVE NEW VISITORS TO THIS THREAD HAVING TO READ THROUGH TO THE END

Well this is getting more serious now.

The second consultation is on line and the proposal is to extend the ULEZ to the North & South circular roads and bring it in early.

Well apparently 7/10 Londoners are in favour of this!! They obviously all want to buy new cars. I cannot believe this is representative of those that actually live in the proposed new zone as even the western extension of the existing congestion charge was strongly opposed.

If you still want to be able to drive an older pre-2007 petrol or pre-2016 diesel within the North & South Circular roads please complete this survey and oppose the ULEZ extension now.

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/environment/air-q...

---

ORIGINAL POST BELOW

If you are not impressed with the new Mayors Ultra Low Emission Zone proposals for London, for example you might live within the North and South circular roads and are worried about the proposed ULEZ extension or you would still like the opportunity to drive your classic car (or indeed any petrol car pre-2006) within central London you only have until 29th July 2016 to give your opinion.

This consultation has not been widely publicised. You will find the link here:

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/environment/ulez/...

There are a few questions at the start of the consultation which would appear to be designed to add weight to how seriously your opinion is taken depending on how informed you are.

To help you give more informed answers:

If you would like to know what the air quality is like in your area visit this link: http://www.londonair.org.uk/london/asp/PublicEpiso...

If you would like to know the breakdown of pollution sources for central London please look here: http://cleanerairforlondon.org.uk/londons-air/air-...

Edited by stephendell on Tuesday 19th July 18:01

Edited by stephendell on Tuesday 18th October 00:59

[TooMany2cvs]

stephendell said:

or you would still like the opportunity to drive your classic car (or indeed any petrol car pre-2006) within central London you only have until 29th July 2016 to give your opinion.

Bearing in mind it's pretty much a given that historic-free-tax vehicles will be allowed in, this is arguing about a fairly narrow range of ages, which - let's be honest - are largely their prime target.

[stephendell]

A spokesman for the Mayors office says there are NO plans for exemption for classics but they are prepared to listen to feedback from the classic car industry.

In any event the current rolling 40 years only allows pre 1976 and post 2006 petrol so that's a whole heap of modern classics and other performance cars that will not be allowed without penalty.

[TooMany2cvs]

stephendell said:

A spokesman for the Mayors office says there are NO plans for exemption for classics

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/check-your-vehicle?intcmp=32646
[quote]Historic vehicles

All vehicles that have a 'historic' vehicle tax class will be exempt from the ULEZ. This tax class excludes any vehicle used commercially. Read the eligibility criteria for the historic vehicle exemption on Gov.uk.

Vehicles built before 1 January 1973 will also be exempt from ULEZ. These vehicles were built
before emissions standards came into force and are exempted because of their unsuitability for
engine conversion or replacement.

[quote]In any event the current rolling 40 years only allows pre 1976 and post 2006 petrol so that's a whole heap of modern classics and other performance cars that will not be allowed without penalty.

By the time the ULEZ comes in, the rolling 40 cutoff'll be 1980, of course. And since restricting access to higher-polluting vehicles is kinda the whole point of the ULEZ...

[ZX10R NIN]

So your modern classic is a dead stick so your MK2 Golf 635csi etc are not going to be exempt great.

[roscobbc]

Travelling by car (or truck) has been continuously affected by ex-mayor Boris and previous incumbents. They all seem to listen to supposed experts in traffic management who only to be able to advise reducing dual carriageways to single carriageways - reducing lane widths - blocking 'rat runs' for those trying to avoid congestion and then, adding insult to injury put in place bike routes that are complicated for the bike riders (with potentially dangerous crossing points) on the assumption that everyone will use a bike instead of a car (or public transport) - such flawed thinking, expecting A. riders to adhere to bike routes B. that everyone will want (or be able) to use a bike. Talk to black cab drivers about the effect the new cycle routes have had on their ability to traverse London - take a ride in central London in the evening and see how many Prius's and other hybrids on are travelling around - they totally outnumber black cabs. Note how the drivers are only able to follow their SatNavs directions rather than the actual carriageways. East/West and West/East travel from Dockland to Parliament Square late evenings/early mornings was always just about OK (excepting some of the stupid unpublicised road works and closures) - now the congestion in the early hours is much the same as is was during the day. Aldgate is now a total joke. London will never ever meet international emission standards - not due to vehicles emissions in the true sense, no - it is due to too many vehicles forced into an ever diminishing road space - result is - ever lower road speeds - and due to vehicles not travelling at emission-efficient speeds ever increasing pollution. Mark my works - within 20 years use of private vehicles within London will all but banned. Don't even think about an electric vehicle - can you imagine HMG allowing the loss of so much tax revenue to go un-challenged? - no you will pay an addition tax or levy to charge your car at home (assuming of course that you are able to park the car on or outside your property AND it is able to have a charge point) - your 'new' electric vehicle will be pollution linked to the National grid. (Assuming of course that we don't have a really bad winter with its subsequent high energy demands creating power shortages and 'blackouts') I do not hold with 'conspiracy theories' - but here we have a real one - Being 'sitting targets' HMG/Local Authorities will 'fleece' us all for all they can - and then when you do your 'green' thing and source a energy efficient vehicle at great cost they will then 'move the goalposts' so you fall foul of some new tax they'll conjure-up.

[roscobbc]

stephendell said:

If you are not impressed with the new Mayors Ultra Low Emission Zone proposals for London, for example you might live within the North and South circular roads and are worried about the proposed ULEZ extension or you would still like the opportunity to drive your classic car (or indeed any petrol car pre-2006) within central London you only have until 29th July 2016 to give your opinion.

This consultation has not been widely publicised. You will find the link here:

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/environment/ulez/...

There are a few questions at the start of the consultation which would appear to be designed to add weight to how seriously your opinion is taken depending on how informed you are.

To help you give more informed answers:

If you would like to know what the air quality is like in your area visit this link: http://www.londonair.org.uk/london/asp/PublicEpiso...

If you would like to know the breakdown of pollution sources for central London please look here: http://cleanerairforlondon.org.uk/londons-air/air-...

Edited by stephendell on Tuesday 19th July 18:01

Wouldn't take any notice of this - like the (then) proposed Cycle Super Highway Mayor for London was 'obliged' to allow public consultation and views of people affected - BUT, (and this is a big BUT) the mayor was not obliged to consider or act upon any mass input of objections - Boris (and presumably the new Major) were/are just carrying out their 'legal obligations', no more. Its a 'done deal' they will not take any notice of public comment 'cos they don't have to. We really need a referendum on these matters - perhaps then they'll be forced to take notice.

[stephendell]

TooMany2cvs said:

stephendell said:

A spokesman for the Mayors office says there are NO plans for exemption for classics

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/check-your-vehicle?intcmp=32646
[quote]Historic vehicles

All vehicles that have a 'historic' vehicle tax class will be exempt from the ULEZ. This tax class excludes any vehicle used commercially. Read the eligibility criteria for the historic vehicle exemption on Gov.uk.

Vehicles built before 1 January 1973 will also be exempt from ULEZ. These vehicles were built
before emissions standards came into force and are exempted because of their unsuitability for
engine conversion or replacement.

In any event the current rolling 40 years only allows pre 1976 and post 2006 petrol so that's a whole heap of modern classics and other performance cars that will not be allowed without penalty.

By the time the ULEZ comes in, the rolling 40 cutoff'll be 1980, of course. And since restricting access to higher-polluting vehicles is kinda the whole point of the ULEZ...

Problem is the Mayor is talking about introducing a "T" charge as well as broadening the ULEZ area. They are not the same and it's all quite confusing until you go through the consultation. There is no exemption for classics of any age for the "T" charge which is planned to be introduced as early as 2017. I believe T is for Toxicity. It will be charged in addition to the Congestion Charge.

Edited by stephendell on Friday 22 July 15:19

[stephendell]

roscobbc said:

Wouldn't take any notice of this - like the (then) proposed Cycle Super Highway Mayor for London was 'obliged' to allow public consultation and views of people affected - BUT, (and this is a big BUT) the mayor was not obliged to consider or act upon any mass input of objections - Boris (and presumably the new Major) were/are just carrying out their 'legal obligations', no more. Its a 'done deal' they will not take any notice of public comment 'cos they don't have to. We really need a referendum on these matters - perhaps then they'll be forced to take notice.

2020 ULEZ is a done deal but 2017 "T" Charge and ULEZ boundary extensions are not so have your say before it's too late.

[roscobbc]

The point I was making was that whilst general public are allowed to make comment on any 'proposals' - its just that - "making comment" - no legal obligation to read or act upon any such comments! - just doing the 'legal' whitewash thing. Ever tried talking to one of these 'supposed' experts on transport? - totally blinkered as to other alternatives. We all curse and hate the West Way elevated roadway - reality is that if it was completed as originally intended (and other similar E/W, N/S limited access high speed roadways) we wouldn't have the problems we are experiencing now. A bit radical perhaps, but I say rip-up the Cycle Super Highways and replace with hi-speed red-line car/truck routes.

[anonymous-user]

stephendell said:

roscobbc said:

Wouldn't take any notice of this - like the (then) proposed Cycle Super Highway Mayor for London was 'obliged' to allow public consultation and views of people affected - BUT, (and this is a big BUT) the mayor was not obliged to consider or act upon any mass input of objections - Boris (and presumably the new Major) were/are just carrying out their 'legal obligations', no more. Its a 'done deal' they will not take any notice of public comment 'cos they don't have to. We really need a referendum on these matters - perhaps then they'll be forced to take notice.

2020 ULEZ is a done deal but 2017 "T" Charge and ULEZ boundary extensions are not so have your say before it's too late.

From this link, it seems the Emission Surcharge is only from whenever in 2017 until the ULEZ comes into force in either 2019 or 2020, then ULEZ rules take over.

TFL dont give a flying fk about what Joe Public (except cyclists) want imho, the proposed enlargement of the ULEZ will be a real fker for me and I cant afford to just go out and buy a new car when TFL demand...sorry, I mean "encourage" me to do so.

Edited by djstevec on Friday 29th July 16:08

[roscobbc]

djstevec said:

From this link, it seems the Emission Surcharge is only from whenever in 2017 until the ULEZ comes into force in either 2019 or 2020, then ULEZ rules take over.

TFL dont give a flying fk about what Joe Public (except cyclists) want imho, the proposed enlargement of the ULEZ will be a real fker for me and I cant afford to just go out and buy a new car when TFL demand...sorry, I mean "encourage" me to do so.

Edited by djstevec on Friday 29th July 16:08

Talk to London truck and van drivers - who were 'persuaded' to sell-off their vehicles for next to nothing and replace with new and (then) 'emission clean' vehicles - only for Government, TFL etc to 'move goalposts' only a few years later making these vehicles non-compliant!

[anonymous-user]

roscobbc said:

Talk to London truck and van drivers - who were 'persuaded' to sell-off their vehicles for next to nothing and replace with new and (then) 'emission clean' vehicles - only for Government, TFL etc to 'move goalposts' only a few years later making these vehicles non-compliant!

Yup heard it all from one of my neighbours....he hates TFL with an almost evangelist-like passion!

Edited by djstevec on Friday 29th July 17:56

[ZX10R NIN]

Mr Kahn & Tax For Londoners won't listen because what we're saying isn't what they want to hear due to the fact he harbours leadership aspirations which don't fit with the role of actually doing something proactive & getting London moving, instead they'd rather add a Tax & do nothing.

The problem with all of this is it's short term political grandstanding which is exactly how we got here in the first place.

Anyone concerned about the environment as a whole wouldn't be advocating EV's the damage that is being made in countries where the Lithium is being mined as well as the obvious generating of electricity does not make them anywhere near as green as they're made out to be, now I'm not saying that they're not an alternative because I believe like they are just the same as Diesel & Petrol powered vehicles have their place so do EV's but they're no greener than the other two.

What's needed is a proper infrastructure policy that takes all the different aspects of what London needs into account so for once those in charge actually come up with a policy that gets London moving rather than policies that are decided by opinion polls.

Power Stations should be worked on first because if you want to EV's to be a true green alternative you need to clean up the way their energy is made as well as deal with the damage caused by mining the Lithium in the first place, also London needs a power station built & soon it'll probably have to be Nuclear but so be it, as energy demands grow especially as more people start using EV's.

Remove the number of traffic lights in Central London I think it works out to one every 800 yards in Central London.

All these planes that are stacked over London could be tackled by making all freight flights from Stansted Gatwick & Heathrow land at Manston this would free up a lot of slots as well as pulling freight traffic away from London & a large part of the M25 along with the expansion of City Airport these thing will have a true effect on air quality without costing Londoners as well as those travelling into London a penny more.

As a byproduct of this you'd make some very affordable housing stock available to those working for UPS DHL etc which would make it easier to get on the property ladder (in other words those on an average wage) as well as giving employment opportunities to areas that could do with some regeneration Margate/Ramsgate etc, if the second crossing ever gets the go ahead then it will tie up with Tilbury & the new Super docks as well as quick access to ferries & ports on the Kent coast which would all add up to make a great freight hub.

TFL have made roads worse with the reduction of road space to private & goods vehicles by 1/3 since we've had an elected Mayor/TFL, reducing the speed limit to 20mph (when all vehicles are at their most inefficient) has not helped neither have speed humps the shutting the cut throughs is another problem so rather than having traffic spread across an area we have it bunched up on the main roads that can't cope, this is a problem made by those in charge not the motorist.

100,00+ new apartments in Central London that need skilled tradesmen to visit them to carry out works & of course service them, now most of these trades people live outside the capital, so they have to drive in they won't do that in a petrol car as they'd burn to much fuel public transport isn't an option when you need tools, also those building the apartments don't contribute to the infrastructure in anyway but draw great profits from them all of which go to their shareholders.

Also when the scrappage scheme came in petrol cars were very inefficient compared to a diesel at the time as well as producing high CO2 levels, now due to a new generation of Petrol engines that actually owe a lot to diesel engine design & this has lead to the advance in Petrol efficiency now most people that do under 12,000 miles per year are already jumping into petrol versions without any incentive from the government & it'll continue to swing that way but for those that do more than 12,000 a year then a diesel will continue to be what they need.

Also why are the main arterial roads out of London now reduced to 50mph surely as the A13 clears Canning Town it should be 70mph (I have no problem with a 50mph limit as you come into London) same with the A2 it should be 70mph once you clear the Kidbrooke interchange.

Mr Kahn & Tax For Londoners should be starting from the top with these environmental policies but Mr Khan & his kind won't do that as it may mean doing something radical which could cost them Votes/Money or a chance at leadership of their respective party so instead they'll fudge it & introduce another tax on the motorist rather than doing what needs to be done which is GET LONDON MOVING.

Does he not think if someone is driving round in a car made before 2005 it's maybe because they're not able to buy a new one.

What Mr Khan should be doing is sorting out the following before taxing the motorist is:

Start with Power Stations first & the rubbish that's pouring out of them.

The number of Traffic Lights in Central London

The Planes stacking over London's skies.

Raise the speed limit back up to 30mph reopen some of the cut throughs raise the speed limit from 50mph to 70mph (as they were before) on arterial roads remove a large number of traffic lights.

Get those building large buildings to contribute to the infrastructure, for example whoever is responsible for building an apartment block in the middle of Lewisham roundabout should be paying towards the road network & a fine for the traffic chaos that it's caused.

Once he's done that then & only then should he start to look at the motorist because the truth of the matter is that the person driving the car is a victim of numerous failures by Tax For Londoners & it's Mayors to actually address the true issues of congestion in Central London.

Rather than do any of the above what they'll do is introduce this TAX collect their salaries & still do nothing about the congestion but Tax For Londoners bank account will be a lot fatter!!

Rant over

Not that it'll make a difference because the consultation is lip service he'll do it no matter how logical the arguments against it are!!

[roscobbc]

Nice to see another person on a 'rant'. Watching TV news tonight and it seems that the joggers are now taking over the cycle routes in some areas at certain times of the day. No one mentions that in the early hours of the morning you can count the number of cyclists on one hand!

[stephendell]

Well this is getting more serious now.

The second consultation is on line and the proposal is to extend the ULEZ to the North & South circular roads and bring it in early.

Well apparently 7/10 Londoners are in favour of this!! They obviously all want to buy new cars. I cannot believe this is representative of those that actually live in the proposed new zone as even the western extension of the existing congestion charge was strongly opposed.

If you still want to be able to drive an older pre-2007 petrol or pre-2016 diesel within the North & South Circular roads please complete this survey and oppose the ULEZ extension now.

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/environment/air-q...

[TooMany2cvs]

stephendell said:

Well apparently 7/10 Londoners are in favour of this!! They obviously all want to buy new cars.

Or perhaps they put their health as a higher priority than your "right" to drive an older car in the middle of a highly congested city?

[ZX10R NIN]

TooMany2cvs said:

Or perhaps they put their health as a higher priority than your "right" to drive an older car in the middle of a highly congested city?

Remember he's trying to spread this out further than the central London now.

If they value their health so much why haven't they also been pushing for:

1) The reduction in the number of traffic lights

2) Reopening Manston Airport to Freight thus reducing the number of planes stacked above London

3) Raising the speed limit back to 30mph rather than 20mph (all car makers say cars are more inefficient/less polluting at 20mph rather than 30mph)

4) Raise the Speed Limit back to 70mph on Major Trunk roads out of London keeping the avg Cameras

5) Reopening of some cut throughs thus spreading traffic rather than corralling traffic

6) Make those building new apartments pay for infrastructure changes (if you saw how many apartments are being built in Lewisham alone with no new schools creches doctors surgeries etc (without those things people have to get in their cars to take their children/themselves to those places) as well as the roads you can't just keep on adding more people to areas without there being a knock on effect.

So if they are so concerned about their environment why are they not pushing for the above as these will have an impact on Air Quality without hurting those that can't afford to change, then after doing the above then come back & then revisit this policy of taxing people when they've carried out the above or are they just saying they're worried about the environment/health because the above will be more effective than a tax.

The problem with the above is it's a long term policy which so goes against modern politics it's all short term policies which is how we ended up here!

Have you been pressing your MP on these issues?

[TooMany2cvs]

ZX10R NIN said:

TooMany2cvs said:

Or perhaps they put their health as a higher priority than your "right" to drive an older car in the middle of a highly congested city?

Remember he's trying to spread this out further than the central London now.

North/South circular are pretty damn "central London" on a national scale.

[ZX10R NIN]

TooMany2cvs said:

North/South circular are pretty damn "central London" on a national scale.

Again I say have you & others been who are worried about your health been pressing MP's on these other issues that affect your health or are you just like your MP's & only interested in imposing another tax on people that can least afford it.