Type N Gearbox Question

[mhibbins]

I have lost syncromesh on 4th on my s3 which has a type N 5 speed gearbox. I am planning on taking the box out over the next few weeks as I've put up with it for ages and I've now got the chance to do the job. I don't really want to go through the hassle of getting a box from a scrappers fitted just in case it fails in short order. I'm pretty confident I can do the job so I've been reading through the appropriate haynes manual and have a couple of questions... My first question, is it the synchroniser ring on 4th that will have worn out rather than the synchroniser units as I've only lost synchromesh on 4th (all other gears are fine)? Secondly, as I've got the thing apart what should I replace as a matter of course (aside from looking for bits of bearing and chipped teeth)? I was thinking about all the synchroniser rings and the oil seals. Finally, given the appropriate gearbox number (which I assume is stamped on the casing somewhere) can I simply order these individual gearbox components from a ford garage or is there someone more specialised I need to go to? Thanks, -- Mark Edited by mhibbins on Wednesday 3rd October 08:37

[johno]

Mhibbins, I can't answer your questions on the gearbox other than to say that by the time you have bought the bits, spent the time stripping the box you may aswell by a reconned unit unless you are going to check tolerances on all thother components and change if unsatisfactory. I really have a question for you though. Are you taking the whole engine out or are you doing the mods to the box and chassis to get the gearbox out on its own ? This is what Tower View reckoned tome about getting the box out without the engine. The other thing to change with the gearbox out would be the clutch unless it's got plenty on it.

[mhibbins]

quote:I can't answer your questions on the gearbox other than to say that by the time you have bought the bits, spent the time stripping the box you may aswell by a reconned unit unless you are going to check tolerances on all thother components and change if unsatisfactory.

The cost of a recon box is roughly 350 pounds. Given that I would have to spend the time getting the car jacked up, removing the exhaust, getting the box out and refitting it anyway then the additional time spent doing the box itself isn't going to add much of an overhead. It can't take me more than half a day to get the box apart and order the bits and then another half a day to put it back together. I've got 3 months off work soon (new baby due) and this is one of those things I'll be filling my time with with a bit of luck. However, If anyone (LeeBee?) can provide me with a quote for doing the whole job drive in/drive out and it comes to a reasonable price then I'd be pleased to entertain the idea but the prices I've got so far just for the gearbox added to what I suspect would be the labour rates are pretty high.

quote:I really have a question for you though. Are you taking the whole engine out or are you doing the mods to the box and chassis to get the gearbox out on its own ? This is what Tower View reckoned tome about getting the box out without the engine.

From what I understand from the 'bible' the chassis does not have to be cut - that is only required for the v8. My idea was to get the whole car up on axle stands and drop the box out of the bottom with the aid of a mate. If it turns out that I do need to cut the chassis then I'll remove the bonnet and take the engine and gearbox out of the front but I really don't believe this is required.

quote:The other thing to change with the gearbox out would be the clutch unless it's got plenty on it.

That was something else I was definitely going to do. I was going to get an AP clutch for it (180 pounds ish). -- Mark Edited by mhibbins on Wednesday 3rd October 11:03

[JSG]

quote: I've got 3 months off work soon (new baby due) and this is one of those things I'll be filling my time with with a bit of luck.

Is this your baby ? I can imagine the response I would have got if I'd suggested playing with the car during paternity leave. Oh the joys of night time feeds, nappies, cooing visitors, sterilising bottles etc... Thank god for whisky. Good luck.

[mhibbins]

quote:Is this your baby ? I can imagine the response I would have got if I'd suggested playing with the car during paternity leave. Oh the joys of night time feeds, nappies, cooing visitors,

"Your mother is here - I'll be in the garage"

quote: sterilising bottles etc... Thank god for whisky.

From what I understand they don't do much in the first few months - more of a wriggling teddy bear. My wife is well primed for the fact that I'm intending to make the most of my time off (assuming I'm not too knackered) while being there to help out rather than being at work. I can't just sit there for 3 months and stare at it... I've got a land rover and a tvr to fix

quote:Good luck.

Cheers. -- Mark Edited by mhibbins on Wednesday 3rd October 11:38

[LeeBee]

No time to do it at the moment (cars cars and more cars, then there is the fact that this is a part time business at the moment and I also work about 45 hours a week).I would personally take the engine and box out as in the long run it will be easier (be warned those gearboxes are VERY heavy, I know this because I had one fall on my toe! ) you can then give then engine a bit of a clean whilst it's out.Give me a shout if you need any advice etc Cheers LeeBee

[mhibbins]

quote:No time to do it at the moment (cars cars and more cars, then there is the fact that this is a part time business at the moment and I also work about 45 hours a week).

No problem - I'm quite looking forward to doing it anyway

quote:I would personally take the engine and box out as in the long run it will be easier (be warned those gearboxes are VERY heavy, I know this because I had one fall on my toe! ) you can then give then engine a bit of a clean whilst it's out.Give me a shout if you need any advice etc

Thanks for the advice. I was planning on removing the roof and the transmission cover and then supporting the gearbox with an engine hoist (if possible) while undoing the bolts and then lowering it to the floor. If I already have an engine hoist though I may as well take the whole lot out of the front - I can always do the clutch in comfort, have a clean around (as you suggest), waxoil the chassis, align the bonnet after my little bump and do the bushes at the same time - phew! A quick question though - I was about to buy an engine hoist from Frost Auto Restoration which is a 500Kg lift for 215 quid - is that a high enough rating for an engine hoist for this job? I'll only be using it for this, my landrover engine and an mgb I'll be pulling apart soon. Or can you recommend somewhere else to go and get one... thanks. -- Mark

[LeeBee]

500kgs should be fine, I have lifted a 2.8i engine and 4x4 front diff using a 217kg hoist (about 3 feet off the ground).I usually go to Machine Mart for lifting gear as they have quite a good selection Cheers LeeBee

[tvrmark]

[quote]Mhibbins,


I really have a question for you though. Are you taking the whole engine out or are you doing the mods to the box and chassis to get the gearbox out on its own ? This is what Tower View reckoned tome about getting the box out without the engine.
[/quote]

I believe sometime during the S3 production there was a factory mod and the offending cross member was made removable.

Mark

Edited by tvrmark on Friday 5th October 22:28

[350matt]

I've had my rover box apart a couple of times and it sounds like you'll get away with replacing just eh snycro ring on 4th but while you've got the box apart you might as well do all of them. Check for chipped gear teeth and cracks. However most of the cost of a gearbox replacement is in the time taken to get the damn thing out (3.5 hours best time so far for a wedge) and you'll probably find that pressing / hammering bearings off shafts is a lot of hassle. I have to say with my own adventures in gearbox land I'd remove the box myself then had it over to a repair / re-con shop. As a indication for mine , bearings replaced, all snychros replaced, new 2nd gear and new seals etc it was only 140 quid inc. a years warrenty and they did it in a day.

[mhibbins]

Just out of interest, say I took of the old box and fished around for a second hand one... is there a particular ford that would have the appropriate type 9/N gearbox tvr used?

--
Mark

[Dave_H]

---

I may as well take the whole lot out of the front - I can always do the clutch in comfort, have a clean around (as you suggest), waxoil the chassis, align the bonnet after my little bump and do the bushes at the same time - phew!

---

Mark, Sounds like my list to do at the momment. All started on Saturday with wanting to just change the oil pump to a high pressure one, and now I'm looking at doing the very same list of things any tip swapping might be a good thing here.

Lee's dead right though about taking the 'box and engine out together. We really struggled trying to get the 'box out alone on Sunday,we gave up in the end and are taking the whole lot out next weekend.

Cheers,

Dave.

[mhibbins]

quote:Mark, Sounds like my list to do at the momment. All started on Saturday with wanting to just change the oil pump to a high pressure one, and now I'm looking at doing the very same list of things any tip swapping might be a good thing here.

I've been asked not to start mine until after our baby is born just in case we need to use it. When I start, I'll let you know how I'm getting on. I'm currently planning on getting the box out, having a look around it and, if possible, just changing the synchro stuff but if it all looks knackerd then getting it reconditioned. I'll be putting a new clutch in at the same time and over-hauling the clutch master and slave cylinders.

quote:Lee's dead right though about taking the 'box and engine out together. We really struggled trying to get the 'box out alone on Sunday,we gave up in the end and are taking the whole lot out next weekend.

I'll get mysef an engine hoist and take the whole lot out then.

Thanks for the advice.

--
Mark

[Dave_H]

Mark, I'm also replacing the two UJs in the prop whilst that's out as well. As the propshaft is a pig to get out on it's own. The bible says it can be done, but I think every ounce of patience left me yesterday

Cheers,
Dave.

Good luck with the new family member!

[mhibbins]

quote:Mark, I'm also replacing the two UJs in the prop whilst that's out as well. As the propshaft is a pig to get out on it's own. The bible says it can be done, but I think every ounce of patience left me yesterday

Crikey, you're really going to town! I'll check for play and bear it in mind when I get it all apart.

quote:Good luck with the new family member!

Cheers, I hope it's good with a spanner, I've got a landrover a kx500 and an old mgb gt to fix yet

--
Mark

[johno]

To replace the prop shaft UJ's you need to undo the diff cradle and lower it at the front and manouvre the prop shaft over the top of the diff to remove from car. Awkward but I've done it with assistance from a friend we managed to change mine in around 8 hours, drive in and drive out.

It does have to come down quite a way and we supported it using a trolley jack.

Be very careful not to damage the finger rollers on the new UJ's as you put them together and make sure you buy the Hardy Spicer UJ's as they are the only ones available with grease nipples.

The bolts connecting the prop shaft drive plate onto the diff drive are lock tited and are very hard to undo.

[Dave_H]

Cheers Johno,

We kinda worked out the diff would have to move but as the 'box and engine is coming out anyway I didnt bother.

I'm doing all this as I've got a clonky drive, I've already replaced the driveshaft CV joints which have helped, but the prop had play also. I've gone through all this route with my MG (except had to rebuild the diff as well) and it's so nicer to drive afterwards with no knocks and clonks.

I'm hoping all this effort under the car this winter, will mean spending time in it next year!!

Wishful thinking eh?

Only bummer is my S3 wont be there for november 18th now