Stainless steel outriggers
Discussion
Hello All,
New to the list.
I'm working on my S1.5 (body off) and I'm about to restore the outriggers. I'm thinking about replacing them with stainless steel tubing (38mm outer diam)
Any thoughts on that? Experiences? I have not seen anybody do that, so there must be a catch....or not??
Follow my work at olavbergman.nl The latest pictures of the sandblasted chassis will be on there soon.
Olav Bergman from Holland
New to the list.
I'm working on my S1.5 (body off) and I'm about to restore the outriggers. I'm thinking about replacing them with stainless steel tubing (38mm outer diam)
Any thoughts on that? Experiences? I have not seen anybody do that, so there must be a catch....or not??
Follow my work at olavbergman.nl The latest pictures of the sandblasted chassis will be on there soon.
Olav Bergman from Holland
Edited by Olav Bergman on Wednesday 4th April 13:05
personally i can see no problem welding in stainless outriggers - they might crack at the weld but i doubt it
i've welded umpteen things like mild to stainless exhausts,bits of motorcycle frame etc
i always imagine there will be some sort of issue but there never is.
The out riggers aren't really structural so the chassis won't fold in half if the welds fail
you could build a whole new chassis out of stainless if you want but you would need someone who had a really good working knowledge of stainless fabrication , heat treatments etc due to both the different spring properties and the old work hardening problem that all stainless fabricators are familiar with
i saw a hot rod once which had a full space frame in 2" stainless tube - nice job but i dread to think of the cost
reb
i've welded umpteen things like mild to stainless exhausts,bits of motorcycle frame etc
i always imagine there will be some sort of issue but there never is.
The out riggers aren't really structural so the chassis won't fold in half if the welds fail
you could build a whole new chassis out of stainless if you want but you would need someone who had a really good working knowledge of stainless fabrication , heat treatments etc due to both the different spring properties and the old work hardening problem that all stainless fabricators are familiar with
i saw a hot rod once which had a full space frame in 2" stainless tube - nice job but i dread to think of the cost
reb
Hi Jagman.
the good news is, your new ss parts will be protected electrochemically by the existing carbon steel parts.
It will perform better than an all ss chassis.
The bad news is, the corrosion of the existing carbon steel will be accelerated by the new ss parts.
So I would not. Given a bit of care the new cs tubes will probably outlast the existing chassisparts.
mvg Boudewijn
the good news is, your new ss parts will be protected electrochemically by the existing carbon steel parts.
It will perform better than an all ss chassis.
The bad news is, the corrosion of the existing carbon steel will be accelerated by the new ss parts.
So I would not. Given a bit of care the new cs tubes will probably outlast the existing chassisparts.
mvg Boudewijn
ijbd said:
The bad news is, the corrosion of the existing carbon steel will be accelerated by the new ss parts.
Not if you weld a mild steel flange onto the existing chassis and bolt on the s/s tube with a gasket.
ijbd said:
So I would not. Given a bit of care the new cs tubes will probably outlast the existing chassisparts.
Yes, this is the most practicle way. Then paint with epoxy mastic.
Hello again.
Thanks for all the advise. The outriggers where in repairable shape so I started welding them back together.
But i noticed that my welding bended one of them slightly. Bummer!
I decided yesterday...I AM GOING TO DO IT; The outriggers will be STAINLES STEEL. Both sides including the v-shaped connection in front. I will have to make a rig as a reference before grinding them off.
It will be a lot of extra work (#$$@#$ I want to finally drive this car, wheeh) but It should look superb!
I'll be using 38 mm diameter SS welded tubes with a 2mm thickness.
I will be welding it myself (....) having heard 100% argon should be used but all I have is 85% argon 15% CO2
Is that a big problem?
Any tipps or how to's usefull in welding on a chassis??
Thanks for all the advise. The outriggers where in repairable shape so I started welding them back together.
But i noticed that my welding bended one of them slightly. Bummer!
I decided yesterday...I AM GOING TO DO IT; The outriggers will be STAINLES STEEL. Both sides including the v-shaped connection in front. I will have to make a rig as a reference before grinding them off.
It will be a lot of extra work (#$$@#$ I want to finally drive this car, wheeh) but It should look superb!
I'll be using 38 mm diameter SS welded tubes with a 2mm thickness.
I will be welding it myself (....) having heard 100% argon should be used but all I have is 85% argon 15% CO2
Is that a big problem?
Any tipps or how to's usefull in welding on a chassis??
Edited by Olav Bergman on Wednesday 10th January 11:23
as track car said you can weld stainless to mild or cromo no problem
i'd use argoshield rather than co2 if you have it as co2 chills the weld and gives more porosity
but you aren't doing coded work here ! so it really wont matter
tips for welding ? use a decent mig ( tig is pointless for heavy stuff like this) and as much power as you have skill
in other words use as much power and wire speed as you can without ending up melting through or dipping beads
weld in 1 inch bursts and weld oposite sides at a time
just my opinion as i'm a mech eng not a coded welder !
i'd use argoshield rather than co2 if you have it as co2 chills the weld and gives more porosity
but you aren't doing coded work here ! so it really wont matter
tips for welding ? use a decent mig ( tig is pointless for heavy stuff like this) and as much power as you have skill
in other words use as much power and wire speed as you can without ending up melting through or dipping beads
weld in 1 inch bursts and weld oposite sides at a time
just my opinion as i'm a mech eng not a coded welder !
Hello All, (message from "jagman2" -> now "Olav Bergman"
An update: All welding is done. I replaced the outriggers with brushed Stainless steel and as much other small parts as possible (like brakeline-, and other brackets)
I welded with normal mig machine with inox wire and 15% Argon 85% Co2.(=Standard mix)
It was really no problem at all. It welded very good.
By now chassis is painted. and I'm preparing to build up the suspension parts (incl all round discbrakeconversion)
I sprayed the chassis with hammerite using spraygun and compressor. I added about 5-10% hammerite-thinner to the can then 5x(spray-dry-sand-spray)=nice result!!!
Short: Welding stainless steel parts to chassis is no problem!
Regards
Olav Bergman
An update: All welding is done. I replaced the outriggers with brushed Stainless steel and as much other small parts as possible (like brakeline-, and other brackets)
I welded with normal mig machine with inox wire and 15% Argon 85% Co2.(=Standard mix)
It was really no problem at all. It welded very good.
By now chassis is painted. and I'm preparing to build up the suspension parts (incl all round discbrakeconversion)
I sprayed the chassis with hammerite using spraygun and compressor. I added about 5-10% hammerite-thinner to the can then 5x(spray-dry-sand-spray)=nice result!!!
Short: Welding stainless steel parts to chassis is no problem!
Regards
Olav Bergman
Edited by Olav Bergman on Wednesday 10th January 11:25
Hi Wildfire,
I have loads of pictures! They used to be on olavbergman.nl but the site is temporarily down.
I expect the site to be up and running again end of next week. I'll reply here again when pics can be viewed.
A body off job is a lot of work but since it all starts looking like new it's a really fun job (I'm a bit meticulous in cleaning and painting everything though) The Idea was get the car on the road quick but the better it gets the more rewarding I find it to be...and the more reluctant I will going te be to drive the car.
Anyway...pictures soon.
Cheers
Olav
I have loads of pictures! They used to be on olavbergman.nl but the site is temporarily down.
I expect the site to be up and running again end of next week. I'll reply here again when pics can be viewed.
A body off job is a lot of work but since it all starts looking like new it's a really fun job (I'm a bit meticulous in cleaning and painting everything though) The Idea was get the car on the road quick but the better it gets the more rewarding I find it to be...and the more reluctant I will going te be to drive the car.
Anyway...pictures soon.
Cheers
Olav
arent you afraid about the fact that you "produced" now a galvanic-element by welding stainless together with normal steel and so force further corrosion?
same as using zinced bolts in aluminium.
the easiest thing during a body off restoration would be getting rid of this stupid plastic coating and galvanize the chassis....and you will never have any corrosion problems.
lotus did that from beginning of the 80´s and i never heard something negative .
same as using zinced bolts in aluminium.
the easiest thing during a body off restoration would be getting rid of this stupid plastic coating and galvanize the chassis....and you will never have any corrosion problems.
lotus did that from beginning of the 80´s and i never heard something negative .
Hi Micha,
I'm not a 100% sure but fairly confident.
1) I think that, for the redox reaction you refer to, the two parts(S/s and carbon steel) have to be in contact through water. If there is no water or no contact through the water nothing will happen. Ofcourse there is water in the real world on the road, but by using hammerite and fett/wax there will hardly be contact. So no more rust than usual.
That's the theory as I remember from the chemistry classes I had..uh..20 years ago.
I recall that there has to be a sollution (water) in the equation for the reaction to take place. (the sacrifial lead blocks bolted to the hull of a ship only work when under the waterline. Those blocks are fitted with the same redox principle in mind)
Using zinc bolts on aluminium goes wrong when the aluminium is bare and water creeps in between the zinc bolt and aluminium and so making contact though the water.
Water: something to do with a medium for the electrons to travel..or whatever. Welding together is contact too you might say...no medium needed! Well yes...uh...well...it's like this....uh....mmmmm...that just...uh doesn't matter
2) I had the chassis sandblasted and after the welding it has been sitting there for quite a while before the hammerite could be applied (I first had to treat the inside with "mike sanders" fett/wax.that meant drilling a lot of holes welding closed again). With bare carbon metal and the S/S welded to it I noticed no surface rust that seemed accellerated. There where only small aereas of surface rust developing normaly.
I trust....and hope...that I'm right about this :-) Is there a real expert on this in this forum who can comment on my theory??
cheers
Olav
I'm not a 100% sure but fairly confident.
1) I think that, for the redox reaction you refer to, the two parts(S/s and carbon steel) have to be in contact through water. If there is no water or no contact through the water nothing will happen. Ofcourse there is water in the real world on the road, but by using hammerite and fett/wax there will hardly be contact. So no more rust than usual.
That's the theory as I remember from the chemistry classes I had..uh..20 years ago.
I recall that there has to be a sollution (water) in the equation for the reaction to take place. (the sacrifial lead blocks bolted to the hull of a ship only work when under the waterline. Those blocks are fitted with the same redox principle in mind)
Using zinc bolts on aluminium goes wrong when the aluminium is bare and water creeps in between the zinc bolt and aluminium and so making contact though the water.
Water: something to do with a medium for the electrons to travel..or whatever. Welding together is contact too you might say...no medium needed! Well yes...uh...well...it's like this....uh....mmmmm...that just...uh doesn't matter
2) I had the chassis sandblasted and after the welding it has been sitting there for quite a while before the hammerite could be applied (I first had to treat the inside with "mike sanders" fett/wax.that meant drilling a lot of holes welding closed again). With bare carbon metal and the S/S welded to it I noticed no surface rust that seemed accellerated. There where only small aereas of surface rust developing normaly.
I trust....and hope...that I'm right about this :-) Is there a real expert on this in this forum who can comment on my theory??
cheers
Olav
Edited by Olav Bergman on Saturday 13th January 16:30
when you weld normal steel tubes to a ss-tube the welding and the ss-tube near the welding will rust in same way as normal steel. this for sure, as you will always will have some hummidity.
to prevent that you need, as you already did, to wax the insides of the chassis tubes and paint the outsides.
i still prefer the galvanizing-version...or a really good plastic coating....not the shit that tvr used....hehe...
to prevent that you need, as you already did, to wax the insides of the chassis tubes and paint the outsides.
i still prefer the galvanizing-version...or a really good plastic coating....not the shit that tvr used....hehe...
GreenV8S said:
micha said:
really good plastic coating....not the shit that tvr used....hehe...
Most of my chassis still seems fine under the powder coating, some parts it's lifted and gone rusty underneath but most of it is still shiny. Not bad for 14 years and 160k miles of all year use, imo.
Last time i saw your car Peter I could barely tell the colour,have you now started to polish it
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