Injector Broken/Stuck In Head

[themee]

I have the rare V8s with diesel injectors fitted and one has broken off in the head. Any ideas on how to tackle it now without removing the head? or does anyone know of any of those specialist mobile broken/injector removal companys within travelling distance to Ross On Wye?

Edited by themee on Saturday 12th January 21:19

[phillpot]

Are you sure this is your S

Will cranking the engine over blow it out, or at least loosen it so you can pull it out with a magnet?


Although I guess the remains of it are pretty well stuck if they broke off like that as you tried to remove it?

[v8s4me]

Those look nothing like the injectors on my car. I'm assuming it's only held in by the rubber 'O' ring so try Phillpot's suggestion of blowing it out using the engine compression.

[themee]

Cheers both but, as Mike says it is properly stuck in there, soaked for over a week, slide hammer then eventually getting it to turn forward and backwards mm by mm.....thought I had it when it came out and then....... the little movement I had was actually breaking the head off. No rubber washers. Just a bloody tight fit and then clamped down onto a copper washer. Will try turning it over though, ta

[GreenV8S]

I've never done it myself but diesel injector replacement seems to routinely lead to seized snapped injectors. Since it is such a common problem, I'm sure that if you ask around you'll find an engineer locally with the tools and expertise to extract the remains. If you can remove the head and take it to them the job will probably be much easier and cheaper.

[themee]

Cheers, seem to be a few companys in and around London advertising for Renault, Vauxhall, Merc but none are local and none of them mention the removal of of my 2.5 TDI S Series injectors, obviously they have a jig for the makes mentioned. Will have a phone around tomorrow. Ta

[Steve_D]

Also google 'thread doctor' etc.
The guys who remove broken bolts usually do injectors as well.
Also try diesel independent garages/mechanics...if they don't do it they will know the best local guy to go to.

Steve

[v8s4me]

There's information on Wikipedia about how BL looked into developing a diesel version of the V8. Here's a short extract..."Project Iceberg - In the late 1970s, British Leyland became aware of the increasing importance of diesel engined cars to the British, European and (especially) North American markets in the wake of the 1979 energy crisis. It was decided that a new series of diesel engines powerful, refined and economical enough for use in BL cars was needed. However, with development funding tight, it was necessary to use existing BL petrol engines as a base. This included a diesel version of the 3.5-litre V8, the development project for which was code-named 'Iceberg'.[6] BL collaborated with Perkins Engines of Peterborough to develop the engine. Both naturally aspirated and turbocharged versions were produced, both using a Stanadyne rotary mechanical fuel injection system. Power outputs of around 100 (naturally aspirated) and 150 (turbocharged) horsepower were achieved. The Iceberg engine was slated for fitment in the Range Rover, Rover SD1 and the Jaguar XJ but the project encountered problems with failure of the alloy cylinder heads and internal cooling. They were limited by the need to use the same basic block casting as the petrol engine to allow the Iceberg engine to be produced on the same production line to reduce costs. Whilst these problems could have been overcome, the project ran into financial and logistical problems caused by the reorganisation of BL and specifically the splitting of Land Rover and Rover into separate divisions. Land Rover took over production of the V8 engine in 1982, moving it from the main BL engine plant at Acock's Green into a new, much lower-capacity production line in the Solihull works, where it was built alongside the other Land Rover engines. This meant that there was no spare capacity to build diesel versions of the engine. Coupled to this, it was clear that the market for large diesel engined cars in North America had not developed as expected. BL finally pulled out of the project in 1983."

Chris - is your engine fitted with diesel heads then? Maybe you could source a pair of "normal" heads and fit these.

[themee]

Chris - is your engine fitted with diesel heads then? Maybe you could source a pair of "normal" heads and fit these.
[/quote]


Im quite happy with the "Iceberg". Rang round a few places today, Best I found is in Bristol, not mobile (may) be able to get it out in situ, but will cost £100+ to trailer each way. Turned over without running and inner nozzle bit and a spring came out, so I now have a small hole in the centre

[Buzzlt]

Well if you have a hole in the middle now you could try an Screw extractor to try and turn it - tentatively otherwise you will end up with something even harder to get out stuck in the middle. They are cheap as chips and even sold in Screwfix but I would spend a bit more on a decent set probably. Sometimes called easy outs.

Same engine in the 4.3 Griff I think.

[Stigproducts]

Alright I just read your post properly. REmoved my post about copper washers...BUT

The prescence of the copper washer gives you something that protects the head should you try and screw extractor it out. If you dril a hole in it and you start getting copper swarf, stop....

Edited by Stigproducts on Tuesday 15th January 20:00

[v8s4me]

Do the diesel heads give a higher compression ratio?
Chris - why not take the head off and see what capacity you have? Maybe you have one of the mythical 4.3 V8S's

[Kitchski]

We need to see a picture of this engine! I can't get my head around how that's even been adapted to run petrol.

[v8s4me]

The things Chris thought were spark plugs are in fact glow-plugs. Let's not spoil his day by telling him that instead of the super rare 4.3 he thinks he has, he does in fact have the even more rare Massey Ferguson upgrade pack

Edited by v8s4me on Wednesday 16th January 16:06

[Kitchski]

v8s4me said:

The things Chris though were spark plugs are in fact glow-plugs. Let's not spoil his day by telling him that instead of the super rare 4.3 he thinks he has, he does in fact have the even more rare Massey Ferguson upgrade pack

Well, it doesn't look very Rover V8 to me, and the amount of shiny black ste all over the place makes it look more like a diesel engine. That said, I've never seen the diesel RV8 'Iceberg' heads up close, and I also don't know if you can fit them to a normal petrol block (although it was the blocks in the diesel concept that was strengthened).

And yes I agree, that's a plug of the glowing variety, rather than the sparking variety.

[themee]

Sorry to mislead anyone,(I actually thought you would all know what I was up to) But I thought post may be removed if I said it was actually on my VW T4, 2.5 TDI obviously I have asked on T4 forums but I think the knowledge of some of the S guys on here is far superior to those VW boys. Anyway I was thinking of tapping into it myself as suggested but It seems that the bit that now has a hole in it is just a very thin piece of metal so would just tear up with any force applied. Rang everyone that is within reasonable distance to me and none of them say they can remove it without removing the head...(I think I could remove it myself if the head was off) I do most things myself on the S and the Van but not sure if head removal is a bit out of my depth.....I know its just nuts and bolts but its getting the timing or something wrong that could lead to catastrophic failure that scares me. And after "having a go" at this injector replacement I may just leave everything to the pros from now on! Any other Ideas before I either completely break it (expensive) or just pay someone to do it (expensive) its the trailering to garage that will bump price up by a fair bit, How long do you think its wise to run on 4 of the 5 cylinders if at all? What damage can be done? would obviously have no unburned fuel going in, which I know is a bad thing. but what else? could maybe attach the new injector to pipework and put into a container of some sort. Thanks all, and this post will now probably be removed

[Steve_D]

If it is now just thin metal then weld a self tapping screw to the end of a piece of rod (or a slide hammer) and try pulling it out with that.
If it strips out go up a screw size or two. Also looking at the new injector as a guide there must be something more substantial below the bit of tin that you could get a bite into with the right size screw.
It has to be worth giving it a good go before taking the head off.

Steve

[themee]

Steve_D said:

If it is now just thin metal then weld a self tapping screw to the end of a piece of rod (or a slide hammer) and try pulling it out with that.
If it strips out go up a screw size or two. Also looking at the new injector as a guide there must be something more substantial below the bit of tin that you could get a bite into with the right size screw.
It has to be worth giving it a good go before taking the head off.

Steve

Thinking the same but the force I gave it with the slide hammer and 1/2" ratchet before it broke hadn't moved it at all so really don't think the thin piece would hold up. Also been thinking about tapping/drilling into the bit below but concerned about pieces getting into cylinder....suppose if heads got to come off anyway then there's nothing to lose if they do.......But would a powerful magnet or vacuum through injector hole get them out? would any really really tiny pieces just be burned/blown out?.......... This could also end up being expensive and why I should be leaving it to the professionals.

[v8s4me]

themee said:

.......... This could also end up being expensive and why I should be leaving it to the professionals.

Assuming they do it properly! How difficult is it to take the head off? Is it OHC or push rod? Or is it an access issue?

[scottritter1982]

I really did not find much of anything on a google search about getting an injector out except this thread. While this thread gave me hope it quickly dissipated to more anxiety as I did not read about a method of successful extraction. Yes, I did have the special injector extractor/installer tool. cylinder 3 gave me a hard time coming out and I noted corrosion. I knew cylinder 5 was requiring too much torque but I was hoping it would finally break loose like cylinder 3. It broke loose alright, right off at the head.

So, here is what I did. PB blaster around the injector as I simultaneously wiggled the injector with a pair of needle nose pliers. I started by wiggling the injector out with pliers, no luck. I drilled the hole where the head snapped off to perfect the hole so I could tap it. The drill bit ended up breaking off 1/2" deep. My luck keeps getting better..... After many more drill bits I established the hole enough to run a tap down. This time the tap actually snapped off in the predrilled hole. Well with that hard of steel in the hole I burned through dozens of drill bits and was never able to establish a hole to get a screw in. Out of desperation I pried, pulled and wiggled that thing for hours with no luck. I let it sit overnight (PB blaster) and kept trying to find a solution. I actually took a flat head screwdriver grabbed some map gas and heated up the tip enough to put a small 90 degree angle at the bottom. I then took that screwdriver and heated it up again red hot and put it down next to the injector where it meets the block. I intentionally melted the plastic away to create a notch. I used that same screwdriver (cooled off now) as a tool to put in the notch and pull up. I really think this method would work for most stuck injectors but my injector was next level stuck. I think if I had a really long screw driver I could have used the slide hammer right on the bar of the screwdriver.
I had all but given up and was accepting the fact that I would have to tear down the motor to get it out. As I was walking in and out of my garage for tools a set of vice grips caught my attention. Brand new straight jaw with pristine teeth. I put the vice grip on the injector and set it hard enough that I needed lock jaw pliers to leverage the best grip possible to lock on. After that I used a second set of lock jaw pliers on the screw part of the handle of the lock jaw that was on the injector. I grabbed a bull hammer and started beating on it like it didn't matter, because it didn't. I had already accepted the engine tear down. When it finally popped I had assumed the grip of the pliers came off of the injector or that I had snapped it off down further on the injector. To my surprise the stuck injector had come fully in tact! This is a victory I will soon not forget. It looked to me that the teflon on the end was just cemented in and the the end of the injector was covered in carbon build up. In all I spent about 7 hours total between 2 days before it finally came out. I will try to post a few pictures for reference. Best of luck to the next guy stuck in this situation. Hopefully, something here in the thread will help you.