Should I go for it...

[rasputin]

I have a chance to buy a Canon 450D with 18-55mm lense relatively cheap.

I'm a newbie - enjoyed taking photos for years, but only recently started using manual controls on my Canon A640.

I'd like an SLR to develop my skills with (I learn quickly by practice - slow by text )

Thing is, I'm a bit concerned about the cost of lenses. I really don't want to spend much to start with, but I am a big fan of "macro" photography - so as far as I understand:
The 18-55mm lense provided will manage with photos of people/car/scenery
and I'll need to buy a macro lense

What worries me is that even the cheapest lenses aren't cheap (the included lense is about £150 on its own), and would these cheap ones perform worse than the A640?

The camera bundle is cheap enough that I could re-sell it on eBay for a very small (if any) loss. But if I find I'm in need of money rather than cameras, I don't want to be left with an expensive macro (and/or other) lenses and no camera!

So... Advice?
Will the included lense give decent quality for general photography?
How much for a macro lense that won't be useless?
Will I need any others?

Edited by rasputin on Monday 25th May 16:42

[jon-]

I would expect the kit 18-52 could be bought on ebay for less than £50 and produce better results than the a640. It's a fine lens to learn an SLR with.

As for macro photography. I expect 4hero will be along any second, but if you want to take it seriously a SLR is the only option. The bad news is budget around £1000 for the lens and another £800 for lighting. I'd love to do what 4hero does, I just can't afford it

[rasputin]

Jon - thanks for that! But I was wrong, the camera is actually a bundle with an 18-55mm lense.

[jon-]

I'd go for it! You could spend the next year with the kit lens and still be learning.

If you really want to get into photography you'll get frustrated very quickly with your existing camera.

[SamHH]

The basic lens that usually comes with that camera will cost £30 second hand off eBay. The performance won't be the best, but it will be better than the lens on your A640.

A dedicated macro lens will cost >£300 new, somewhat less second hand. However, you can get various bits of kit that will allow a normal lens to focus closer (this is what makes a macro lens a macro lens) for between £15 and £100. You may find that the normal lens on its own will allow you to get close enough.

You may also find that you want a telephoto lens, a basic one costing between £100 and £200 new.

Unfortunately photographic equipment isn't cheap but you don't have to have super-duper equipment to be able to take good photos.

Edited by SamHH on Monday 25th May 16:59

[rasputin]

SamHH said:

Unfortunately photographic equipment isn't cheap but you don't have to have super-duper equipment to be able to take good photos.

That's the thing - I doubt my abilities are as good as what the A640 is capable of.

I'm not scared of having to learn to use all of the controls of an SLR - as long as I can replicate the same range of shots that the A640 is capable of.

So when I say "macro", the quote marks are the key ! I don't expect this ()... But maybe something like this (my rusty spark plug)

What are the macro adapters?

[SamHH]

rasputin said:

That's the thing - I doubt my abilities are as good as what the A640 is capable of.

I'm not scared of having to learn to use all of the controls of an SLR - as long as I can replicate the same range of shots that the A640 is capable of.

The main thing is that an SLR gives you the level of control to be able to experiment and find out more about what makes good photos and what doesn't (not because it's an SLR, it just happens that that design of camera has become the most popular in high-end consumer cameras). On the other hand, modern SLRs can be set to do everything automatically if you just want to get the photo and aren't bothered about the artistic elements.

rasputin said:

What are the macro adapters?

- Reverse mounts: these literally allow you to put the lens on back-to-front, allowing you to focus much closer. No auto-focussing or aperture control.

- Close-up lenses that screw onto the front of the lens

- Extension tubes: hollow tubes that go between the lens and the camera. They come in with and without the electrical contacts that give auto-focussing and aperture control.

Lack of auto-focussing isn't a problem as auto-focus is pretty ineffective when you're that close anyway. Aperture control is nice to have. With any of these adapters fitted, the lens will only be usable for macro; it won't focus on distant subject whereas most dedicated macro lenses can do this. Also, the image quality won't be as good with a dedicated macro lens but I've used extension tubes and close-up lenses and found the quality is plenty good enough.

[RobDickinson]

rasputin said:

Jon - thanks for that! But I was wrong, the camera is actually a bundle with an 18-55mm lense.

Which 18-55? The new IS one or the old non IS? The new one which should have come with that camera whe new is pretty damned good. Though either should waste a P&S.

As for macro, you can do it cheaply with reverse mount or extension tubes or buy a dedicated lens , the tamron 90f2.8 is top candidate.

[VxDuncan]

If you want to take better photos, a simple swap to a 450D will be a massive jump in quality. I know you can take good images with a compact, but the simple factor of a bigger better sensor and glass with be a massive leap over the compact. You can then start to learn the manual controls of the DSLR over time. THere's a lot to learn, but the 450D would keep you busy for a long time. Macro solutions, as said are available at fairly low cost of variable quality. One of the best things to do would be to buy a Sigma 70-300mm F5.6 APO for around £150 This would give you all the range you'll need (ca. 7x zoom inc the std lens I guess), reach for nature/sports stuff, and a really good 1:2 "macro" (better than a compact).

[Yellabelly]

jon- said:

I would expect the kit 18-52 could be bought on ebay for less than £50 and produce better results than the a640. It's a fine lens to learn an SLR with.

As for macro photography. I expect 4hero will be along any second, but if you want to take it seriously a SLR is the only option. The bad news is budget around £1000 for the lens and another £800 for lighting. I'd love to do what 4hero does, I just can't afford it

That's a qick way to turn someone off going to a DSLR

Tamron 90mm SP f2.8 Di Macro £335 new at Warehouse Express less for a s/h example on ebay.
Maruma Ring flash £100 perfectly adequate for starters.

The results it produces will satify most needs apart from 4hero :¬))) It will also perform superbly as a mid range telephoto and as an exellent portrait lens
Cross ballpoint pen - you can see the ringflash in the reflection.



this is the set up with extension tubes on a geared slider and Manfrotto 190XproB tripod

[Simpo Two]

As usual it all depends what kind of macro you want to do and how serious you want to get. A close-up lens screwed to the front of your normal lens, and decent ambient light, might be all you need and get you home for £20. At the other end of the spectrum is 4hero's setup - and there are many points in-bewteen. I use a Micro Nikkor 105mm f2.8 (non-VR version, which I got s/h for the equivalent of about £220) and either ambient or studio light.

rasputin said:

What worries me is that even the cheapest lenses aren't cheap (the included lense is about £150 on its own), and would these cheap ones perform worse than the A640?

But how much does the lens in an A640 cost? Not nearly as much as £150 I suspect. So a £150 DSLR lens ought to trump it - but equally importantly, you've got the far bigger sensor and all the controls.

What are the shortcomings of a 'cheap' DSLR lens? I guess:

1) Build quality - no doubt plastic - but that's fine for normal use.

2) Slow maximum aperture - may or may not be an issue for you.

3) Edge and corner quality - expect visible chromatic aberration and image degradation at edges and especially corners. But keep this in perspective - not many images are viewed at 100%. If one day you become dissatisfied with the quality of a 'cheap' lens, then you can always sell and upgrade. And second-hand lenses are a great way to get the quality at much lower cost.

Edited by Simpo Two on Tuesday 26th May 09:44

[Kermit power]

jon- said:

The bad news is budget around £1000 for the lens and another £800 for lighting. I'd love to do what 4hero does, I just can't afford it

How much??

The shot below was taken with a 450D, using a Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro lens and a Canon MR14-EX ring flash on a Manfrotto 190 XPROB tripod. The whole lot could be had for less than £1,000 on Ebay, and any failings in the shot are mine, not the equipment's. What more would you expect to get spending a grand on the lens alone, and nearly as much again on the lighting?

[jon-]

Kermit power said:

What more would you expect to get spending a grand on the lens alone, and nearly as much again on the lighting?

This:



I'm kind of obsessed with 4heros macro setup though

[rasputin]

Ah so all I need is a lens inverter and I'll be taking fly shots like that or better!





I popped into Jessops for a "test drive", as I haven't handled many DSLRs before. I wanted to get a feel of them.
They didn't have a 450D in stock () - so I tried the 500D which as far as I could tell looked the same (even though the Jessops monkey kept calling it a "5000" )...

Can't say I was a big fan. It felt a wee bit too cheap and plasticky. And I didn't especially like the menu system. Maybe if I spent more time with one (and if Jessops let me try one with a memory card ) I would have been happier with it. It was fine, but... didn't blow me away at all.

I also asked to try a Sony A300 as they have them for £300 with lense, which seems like a decent price. Again none in stock so I tried the A350... Much better ! Still a bit plasticky and I would like it to be heavier but it just felt better in my hand and the menu system was (IMO) better layed out. Also it (sort of) replicates the swivel-LCD of my A640 which is fantastic for some funny-angled shots!

So, right now, I'm thinking (other than 'Jessops are poo') that I may pass up the 450D and I'm leaning towards the A300...

Edited by rasputin on Tuesday 26th May 14:12

[Kermit power]

I love my 450D, but if it's not for you, then I'd certainly be thinking Nikon before Sony, as you'd have a far wider choice of lenses and accessories at more reasonable prices.

[jon-]

Kermit power said:

I love my 450D, but if it's not for you, then I'd certainly be thinking Nikon before Sony, as you'd have a far wider choice of lenses and accessories at more reasonable prices.

I'd second that. Slightly out of your price range but I was super impressed with the D90 when my friend brought it round. Made my 400d feel quite average.

[Simpo Two]

4 x in one post is pretty impressive!

If you thought the Canon and Sony were plasticky (bearing in mind you're talking entry level DSLRs) then Nikon is the obvious place you haven't looked yet.

I don't know the prices of every make/model but what's £50 here or there if it means you'll get a camera you like, rather than one you don't?

[rasputin]

Simpo Two said:

4 x in one post is pretty impressive!

The Jessops monkey was unimpressive enough to warrant it! To be fair, all the other staff did seem pretty knowledgeable from what I (over)heard... But there was only one salesman left who very reluctantly showed me the cameras and was less than helpful.

I will have a look at the Nikon D60. It was the lack of live-view that put me off. I doubt it'll bother me too much, but there are some shots where I'd rather have the option.

Edited by rasputin on Tuesday 26th May 15:17

[muppetdave]

jon- said:

I'm kind of obsessed with 4heros macro setup though

I have noticed your 4hero-worship on flickr....

I'd go for it, I'm no macro expert, but just with the ability to learn how to control your camera more, the 450D setup you're talking about will certainly give you enough to go at until such time you can get a dedicated macro lens.

I was going to try and start learning more about general photography but very quickly realised it was really a non-started using a PAS. Go for it!!!

[Simpo Two]

rasputin said:

I will have a look at the Nikon D60. It was the lack of live-view that put me off. I doubt it'll bother me too much, but there are some shots where I'd rather have the option.

Uncle Simpo says: 'You don't need live view'. Unless you want to pretend it's a compact of course