Anyone in the printing business?
Discussion
Probably not the correct forum but possibly the closest on the subject.
What is the general rule with regards to printing black text (posters, magazines, etc)?
When sending files as PDF to printers (CMYK) we more often than not end up with four colour black, which sometimes can look rather crap. This is despite whether the text was 100% black in the app it was created (Photoshop, Illustrator, Corel, etc) or if all the text is converted to curves.
So what's the solution to this? I do all the printers suggest and we still have these problems from time to time and I'm starting to think it's an excuse used by printers to palm us off.
From what I've read on the internet this is a common problem printers face when receiving artwork from clients but a problem that can be eliminated with software such as Pitstop Pro. So are we just using lazy printers?
Any suggestions?
What is the general rule with regards to printing black text (posters, magazines, etc)?
When sending files as PDF to printers (CMYK) we more often than not end up with four colour black, which sometimes can look rather crap. This is despite whether the text was 100% black in the app it was created (Photoshop, Illustrator, Corel, etc) or if all the text is converted to curves.
So what's the solution to this? I do all the printers suggest and we still have these problems from time to time and I'm starting to think it's an excuse used by printers to palm us off.
From what I've read on the internet this is a common problem printers face when receiving artwork from clients but a problem that can be eliminated with software such as Pitstop Pro. So are we just using lazy printers?
Any suggestions?
GetCarter said:
If you specify your black as dark pissy brown green, you'll probably get perfect photo black. 
I've had this problem in the past - and I'm sure someone will turn up with a good solution.
I've had this problem in the past - and I'm sure someone will turn up with a good solution.
To be honest, it's really starting to piss me off because we'll send a magazine to print and it'll come back, the boss will take a look at it and say "the black on page 10 (or whatever) looks crap, why?" so the printing rep will go away, speak to the printer and then they'll come back and say "it's because it's four colour black". And this isn't just the one printer, whenever we do have this issue and confront them about it they all say this and I really do think it's just an attempt of baffling the management with jargon and trying to lay the problem on us, the designers.
As you know though, printing isn't simple, what I see on my screen may differ to what they see on their screen despite best attempts at colour matching. Not only that but their proof looked fine, with the black looking perfect, yet still when the final product arrives and the black is off, typical response "it's because the black in your files is four colour".
What I read though is that if the printer was to use Pitstop Pro then this will convert RGB and CMYK blacks to 100% black and eliminate the problem we frequently see.
It's unlikely to be the printer as they're not going to want to piss off a customer, particularly if it's a regular publication. Business like that, that is scheduled and good for cash flow, is manna from heaven for these guys.
I've asked the designer in the print house we use for our magazine and he's not actually come across the problem directly, but is aware that CMYK could affect it, so he's asking the repro guys if they've got any info. I'll update when he phones back
I've asked the designer in the print house we use for our magazine and he's not actually come across the problem directly, but is aware that CMYK could affect it, so he's asking the repro guys if they've got any info. I'll update when he phones back
If you're printing a 4 colour page, then they will of course make up the black from 4 colours rather than a spot colour. You can get around this though by asking for a 5th colour (as a spot) but it's expensive and probably not worth it for black. If most of the mag looks great but one page looks awful then you need to be looking at your artwork to see what the differences in the pages are that could cause it.
There is a particular makeup on the 4 colours which produces a lovely deep black but I can't remember it off the top of my head.
There is a particular makeup on the 4 colours which produces a lovely deep black but I can't remember it off the top of my head.
Am a designer myself, so I have the same viewpoint as you - as virtually every printer in the land will, at some time or another, used the get-out-of-jail card you describe. However, I do also have experience of the print trade & potential pitfalls associated with supplying artwork.
Basically, Just black on its own can look very flat & a four colour black can A) be too much ink for the press, so your printers may be performing some in-RIP shenanagans to reduce the overall ink limit and b) could possibly yield a colour-cast. You'll probably have noticed that if you generate a mono black (i.e. 100% K, zero CMY) that once imported into Photoshop it becomes a four-colour mix. This can be changed in the preferences, somewhat, but just keep an eye on the total ink limit as unless you specifically ask (i.e. pay!) the printer to check, they will simply state 'we printed what you supplied, guv'nor! A rough rule of thumb is that total ink limit should not be more than 280% (max = 400% = 100% of each of the four colours). Finally, C) a four colour black will require absolutely PERFECT registration, as any minute movement will make the text/image blurred.
The solution? Generally known as a ' black shiner' - again, a rough rule of thumb is 100% K & 50% cyan will give you a rich deep black, it will not be too much ink for the press to handle & cause set-off & it isn't too tricky to print.
Hope that helps, a bit!
Basically, Just black on its own can look very flat & a four colour black can A) be too much ink for the press, so your printers may be performing some in-RIP shenanagans to reduce the overall ink limit and b) could possibly yield a colour-cast. You'll probably have noticed that if you generate a mono black (i.e. 100% K, zero CMY) that once imported into Photoshop it becomes a four-colour mix. This can be changed in the preferences, somewhat, but just keep an eye on the total ink limit as unless you specifically ask (i.e. pay!) the printer to check, they will simply state 'we printed what you supplied, guv'nor! A rough rule of thumb is that total ink limit should not be more than 280% (max = 400% = 100% of each of the four colours). Finally, C) a four colour black will require absolutely PERFECT registration, as any minute movement will make the text/image blurred.
The solution? Generally known as a ' black shiner' - again, a rough rule of thumb is 100% K & 50% cyan will give you a rich deep black, it will not be too much ink for the press to handle & cause set-off & it isn't too tricky to print.
Hope that helps, a bit!
timal said:
Finally, C) a four colour black will require absolutely PERFECT registration, as any minute movement will make the text/image blurred.
The solution? Generally known as a ' black shiner' - again, a rough rule of thumb is 100% K & 50% cyan will give you a rich deep black, it will not be too much ink for the press to handle & cause set-off & it isn't too tricky to print.
Hope that helps, a bit!
The solution? Generally known as a ' black shiner' - again, a rough rule of thumb is 100% K & 50% cyan will give you a rich deep black, it will not be too much ink for the press to handle & cause set-off & it isn't too tricky to print.
Hope that helps, a bit!
This is what I believe to be the problem. A four colour black means it's printed over 4 times with each clour (C, M, Y, K) and thus the movement is what causes the crap look that sometime occurs. At which point the Print Rep will say it's because we used 'four colour black and not 100% black". Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely if we're using four colours (CMYK) then the black is bound to be four colours (because what might be 100%black in my app might not be 100% black when they import it into whatever application they use)?
So the actual issue is not that we're using four colours but that their registration isn't perfect?
Or alternatively they can use Pitstop Pro to convert CMYK / RGB blacks to 100% black?
I'll give the 50% Cyan and 100% K a try and see how that goes.
Well, the issue is *kind of* the fact that you're using four colours - as it is a bitch to print & as designers we should be aware of the limitations of the press - well, perhaps more importantly, the minder! No point in making a job harder to print than it needs to be. I, for one, never supply four-colour black as I know it may give less than perfect results. I guess it's a mute point as to whether the printer or the designer should be using Pitstop Pro, but I do know the printer can always use the joker about printing what was supplied & a four-colour black is best avoided. Imagine a four-colour 6pt 'e' - pretty tricky.
Bear in mind that there is as much leeway in colours & ink on paper as there is when manipulating images in Photoshop or, come to that, photographic printing.
Bear in mind that there is as much leeway in colours & ink on paper as there is when manipulating images in Photoshop or, come to that, photographic printing.
timal said:
Well, the issue is *kind of* the fact that you're using four colours - as it is a bitch to print & as designers we should be aware of the limitations of the press - well, perhaps more importantly, the minder! No point in making a job harder to print than it needs to be. I, for one, never supply four-colour black as I know it may give less than perfect results. I guess it's a mute point as to whether the printer or the designer should be using Pitstop Pro, but I do know the printer can always use the joker about printing what was supplied & a four-colour black is best avoided. Imagine a four-colour 6pt 'e' - pretty tricky.
Bear in mind that there is as much leeway in colours & ink on paper as there is when manipulating images in Photoshop or, come to that, photographic printing.
Bear in mind that there is as much leeway in colours & ink on paper as there is when manipulating images in Photoshop or, come to that, photographic printing.
That seems to be the problem though, what is supposedly 100%k in one app ends up as something else when imported to another. Me and one of the printers tested this with a few files and the result was always the same, 4 colour black. I think I've found what ideal settings I need to get best results when going litho though, still need to work on things for the pritner who prints digital.
Cheers for all the replies.
I think you're thinking about it far too much - just tell your printer that he's doing a shit job and if he doesn't sort it out, you'll be finding someone else! We print stuff 4/4 all the time and i've NEVER had a problem with the blacks. You can use the 2 colour mentioned above which does give a deeper black but if you've got one page that looks different to the rest then the printer is doing something wrong - and if it's noticeable by a layman then there's definately something wrong!
Mad Dave said:
I think you're thinking about it far too much - just tell your printer that he's doing a shit job and if he doesn't sort it out, you'll be finding someone else! We print stuff 4/4 all the time and i've NEVER had a problem with the blacks. You can use the 2 colour mentioned above which does give a deeper black but if you've got one page that looks different to the rest then the printer is doing something wrong - and if it's noticeable by a layman then there's definately something wrong!
You're probably right. The problem is as someone mentioned above: the text ends up blurry / combination of red and black / etc where it's all gone out of alignment and it can be very noticeable on some pages.
I think I'll just go tell them to
themselves in future and do the job properly 
Oakey said:
Mad Dave said:
I think you're thinking about it far too much - just tell your printer that he's doing a shit job and if he doesn't sort it out, you'll be finding someone else! We print stuff 4/4 all the time and i've NEVER had a problem with the blacks. You can use the 2 colour mentioned above which does give a deeper black but if you've got one page that looks different to the rest then the printer is doing something wrong - and if it's noticeable by a layman then there's definately something wrong!
You're probably right. The problem is as someone mentioned above: the text ends up blurry / combination of red and black / etc where it's all gone out of alignment and it can be very noticeable on some pages.
I think I'll just go tell them to
themselves in future and do the job properly Where are you based?
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