Motor sport newby advice please
Discussion
Whilst I am not new to photography I have focused mainly on people, brand, events and landscapes. I want to try something new and as I live about 2 miles from a Go Kart track that presents a great opportunity to pick up new skills, mainly panning.
First visit I used a 70+200 and fast shutter speeds I got the karts going round a corner and along a twisty section of the track. Ok shots but look static so the next visit I tried panning, again with the 70-200. I
My position was on the home straight (Red Cross on map) and I was able to see the middle straight (yellow arrow pointing right) no problem and the zoom got me quite close in.
Anyway I got some shots but not perfect.
Today I went to the home straight and used a 50 as the zoom lens was too long, shooting karts travelling right to left in front of me( yellow arrow pointing left).
None of the shots turned out as I was either panning too quickly and everything was blurred or simply couldn’t turn fast enough and they were there and gone in a flash. I managed to get them approaching me but that’s not really what I want.
As far as I know public are not allowed anywhere other than the area at the bottom of the map.
So my questions:
Where up is the best position to get good panning shots is it a straight or should I look for a long swooping bend if the track as one?
Was I trying the impossible panning on the straight I was standing next too as the karts were going too fast to get a lock and pan and shoot before they were past me. Or is there a trick to it?
?
What would be the best shutter speed to use to pan karts on the middle straight and make sure I capture the motion?
Any other advice please?
First visit I used a 70+200 and fast shutter speeds I got the karts going round a corner and along a twisty section of the track. Ok shots but look static so the next visit I tried panning, again with the 70-200. I
My position was on the home straight (Red Cross on map) and I was able to see the middle straight (yellow arrow pointing right) no problem and the zoom got me quite close in.
Anyway I got some shots but not perfect.
Today I went to the home straight and used a 50 as the zoom lens was too long, shooting karts travelling right to left in front of me( yellow arrow pointing left).
None of the shots turned out as I was either panning too quickly and everything was blurred or simply couldn’t turn fast enough and they were there and gone in a flash. I managed to get them approaching me but that’s not really what I want.
As far as I know public are not allowed anywhere other than the area at the bottom of the map.
So my questions:
Where up is the best position to get good panning shots is it a straight or should I look for a long swooping bend if the track as one?
Was I trying the impossible panning on the straight I was standing next too as the karts were going too fast to get a lock and pan and shoot before they were past me. Or is there a trick to it?
?
What would be the best shutter speed to use to pan karts on the middle straight and make sure I capture the motion?
Any other advice please?
Edited by steveatesh on Sunday 13th October 23:30
steveatesh said:
...
So my questions:
Where up is the best position to get good panning shots is it a straight or should I look for a long swooping bend if the track as one?
I prefer on a bend to capture some attitude, especially sliding etc - but I haven't done any kart photography just cars (mostly rally in recent times) and occasionally motorcycle racing. On a straight will probably be easier while you are learning though, unless you can get on the inside of a bend so the focus distance stays more constant.So my questions:
Where up is the best position to get good panning shots is it a straight or should I look for a long swooping bend if the track as one?
steveatesh said:
Was I trying the impossible panning on the straight I was standing next too as the karts were going too fast to get a lock and pan and shoot before they were past me. Or is there a trick to it?
You may have just been too close to the track to pan at the speed they were doing, but a couple of things you can try that may help:- rapid-fire shutter mode if you haven't been using that already, clickclickclickclickclick as they come past, then review later and only keep the good ones.
- pre-focussing where they will be when you shoot instead of trying to lock focus onto the moving kart
steveatesh said:
What would be the best shutter speed to use to pan karts on the middle straight and make sure I capture the motion?
Hard to advise specifics without knowing the speed etc, for most motorsport panning I start around 1/160 and adjust faster or slower from there depending on the speed, lens length and movement of the cars. A bit of trial and error will help you figure out what works for you there.steveatesh said:
Any other advice please?
Don't be discouraged by taking heaps of photos and only having a few good enough to keep, especially when you are fairly new to it - your 'hit rate' will improve with practise but there is always some unpredictability with the movement, no matter how good you get there will still be some shots that are only worthy of the delete button.Panning is about trial and error. As GravelBen says, select continuous shooting and keep the shutter pressed as you pan.
There's a couple of things to keep in mind, though.
In all forms of racing, the car/kart is either accelerating or slowing. Knowing this and knowing what it's doing at any one point on the circuit will help you to frame and follow with greater accuracy.
Being so close to the track, you'll not get a shot where the kart is pin sharp in its entirety with a blurred back ground. For that, you need to be further back with a longer lens, and perhaps a monopod to remove up and down movement. This need not be a problem because a shot where the peripheries of the kart are streaked can give a pleasing sense of speed. Again, trial and error to see what you get.
And you also need to know about something called rolling-shutter. Unless you have the new Sony A9 (which has a global shutter), the sensor processes the light from the top down so the pixels at the bottom process the light later than those at the top. This happens as a very fast rate and 99% of the time causes no issue but when you're panning on a fast moving subject, it can result in some odd distortion effects.
Beyond panning, personally, I like to see shots taken from below the eye-line of the driver. I rarely see a photo I've taken looking down onto a car that I like. This means finding some creative locations and getting down and dirty on the ground.
HTH - best advice is to just keep shooting and try different stuff.
There's a couple of things to keep in mind, though.
In all forms of racing, the car/kart is either accelerating or slowing. Knowing this and knowing what it's doing at any one point on the circuit will help you to frame and follow with greater accuracy.
Being so close to the track, you'll not get a shot where the kart is pin sharp in its entirety with a blurred back ground. For that, you need to be further back with a longer lens, and perhaps a monopod to remove up and down movement. This need not be a problem because a shot where the peripheries of the kart are streaked can give a pleasing sense of speed. Again, trial and error to see what you get.
And you also need to know about something called rolling-shutter. Unless you have the new Sony A9 (which has a global shutter), the sensor processes the light from the top down so the pixels at the bottom process the light later than those at the top. This happens as a very fast rate and 99% of the time causes no issue but when you're panning on a fast moving subject, it can result in some odd distortion effects.
Beyond panning, personally, I like to see shots taken from below the eye-line of the driver. I rarely see a photo I've taken looking down onto a car that I like. This means finding some creative locations and getting down and dirty on the ground.
HTH - best advice is to just keep shooting and try different stuff.
Great advice thanks guys.
I think my attempt yesterday was too ambitious being so close to to the karts, I got some sharp ones as they drove towards me but the it all went tits up as they passed me and
Every shot was full of motion blur as I turned (or attempted to). to keep up with them.
Il go back next time and look for a better location, hopefully I will be allowed to somewhere near a fast bend and use the 70-200. All my lens are Sony GM so good quality and fast to focus.
I’m using high speed drive so click click click , I play with the various focus types but think I’ve got that one narrowed down. Yes using Sony, just the A7iii though so I turn the front e shutter off.
I’ll play with the shutter speed more when I find a better location, but I doubt I’ll get below eye level of them as non of the track is raised and there’s the usual array of old tyres and barriers up to waist height of course.
Been great fun up to now, I appreciate the advice, cheers.
I think my attempt yesterday was too ambitious being so close to to the karts, I got some sharp ones as they drove towards me but the it all went tits up as they passed me and
Every shot was full of motion blur as I turned (or attempted to). to keep up with them.
Il go back next time and look for a better location, hopefully I will be allowed to somewhere near a fast bend and use the 70-200. All my lens are Sony GM so good quality and fast to focus.
I’m using high speed drive so click click click , I play with the various focus types but think I’ve got that one narrowed down. Yes using Sony, just the A7iii though so I turn the front e shutter off.
I’ll play with the shutter speed more when I find a better location, but I doubt I’ll get below eye level of them as non of the track is raised and there’s the usual array of old tyres and barriers up to waist height of course.
Been great fun up to now, I appreciate the advice, cheers.
Top tip:
Some pro photographers do their panning shots in the pit lane when the subject is going quite slowly. Much easier to do, so maybe practice there ‘if’ you’re allowed anywhere that gives you that view.
I used to do it a lot (I’m no pro!) in the pit lane at Brands. As long as you keep out of the way of everyone and everything, you’re usually fine.
Some pro photographers do their panning shots in the pit lane when the subject is going quite slowly. Much easier to do, so maybe practice there ‘if’ you’re allowed anywhere that gives you that view.
I used to do it a lot (I’m no pro!) in the pit lane at Brands. As long as you keep out of the way of everyone and everything, you’re usually fine.
Bear in mind also that at very low shutter speeds you will never get the whole vehicle sharp due to parallax because It's travelling towards you whilst the shutter is open.
You can only get the whole vehicle sharp if you are travelling along side it and parallel to it if that makes sense.
You can only get the whole vehicle sharp if you are travelling along side it and parallel to it if that makes sense.
Benzinaio said:
Bear in mind also that at very low shutter speeds you will never get the whole vehicle sharp due to parallax because It's travelling towards you whilst the shutter is open.
You can only get the whole vehicle sharp if you are travelling along side it and parallel to it if that makes sense.
Yes, definitely although it just has to be ‘acceptable’ or the imperfections can add to the image. You can only get the whole vehicle sharp if you are travelling along side it and parallel to it if that makes sense.
Tiff Needell, Thundersports, support race for British Grand Prix, Brands, 1986. I think 1/30th sec.
Benzinaio said:
Bear in mind also that at very low shutter speeds you will never get the whole vehicle sharp due to parallax because It's travelling towards you whilst the shutter is open.
You can only get the whole vehicle sharp if you are travelling along side it and parallel to it if that makes sense.
Or you take the shot when it's exactly level with you. Even then one or both ends can be out, and extra DOF won't help 'cos it's motion blur.You can only get the whole vehicle sharp if you are travelling along side it and parallel to it if that makes sense.
Nice pic. Not as easy back then in the days of film.
I see your 1/30 and raise you a 1/25 shot.
Fittipaldi F5A by Jayson Cork, on Flickr
I see your 1/30 and raise you a 1/25 shot.
Fittipaldi F5A by Jayson Cork, on FlickrBenzinaio said:
Nice pic. Not as easy back then in the days of film.
I see your 1/30 and raise you a 1/25 shot.
Fittipaldi F5A by Jayson Cork, on Flickr
Naaa, my 35mm beats any digital shot I see your 1/30 and raise you a 1/25 shot.
Fittipaldi F5A by Jayson Cork, on Flickr
And mine has been ‘liked’ by Tiff, so…
Back to the OP,
Basics.
Set your camera to single shot.
Autofocus onto the piece of track that the karts are likely to be on, the switch to manual focus.
Stand with you feet a shoulders width apart, so that the karts will be in focus when directly in front of you.
Try to use an aperture of f8 ish so you’ve reasonable depth of field.
As the karts come in to view, follow the chosen kart with your camera and sweep with it and follow through. Just like in snooker and golf, don’t stop swinging as soon as you press the shutter button.
By taking just one shot, you can concentrate on perfecting that, rather than perfecting three shots taken at different times. ‘Machinegunning’ isn’t a good look or sound!
When you arrive at the track, forget everything. smile
Basics.
Set your camera to single shot.
Autofocus onto the piece of track that the karts are likely to be on, the switch to manual focus.
Stand with you feet a shoulders width apart, so that the karts will be in focus when directly in front of you.
Try to use an aperture of f8 ish so you’ve reasonable depth of field.
As the karts come in to view, follow the chosen kart with your camera and sweep with it and follow through. Just like in snooker and golf, don’t stop swinging as soon as you press the shutter button.
By taking just one shot, you can concentrate on perfecting that, rather than perfecting three shots taken at different times. ‘Machinegunning’ isn’t a good look or sound!
When you arrive at the track, forget everything. smile
Edited by Tony1963 on Monday 14th October 15:08
steveatesh said:
More great help, thanks everybody.
Bloody hell those shtte speeds are much less that what I was trying to use (1/125) !
Tony, I'll try that too cheers!
Steve
A pleasure. Just remember, when I was trying this out with my Olympus 35mm, not only did I have to wait a few days to see if I’d taken any decent photos, but it wasn’t exactly cheap either. Bloody hell those shtte speeds are much less that what I was trying to use (1/125) !
Tony, I'll try that too cheers!
Steve
Many people going on holiday would only take a roll of 24 for the whole week… or two!
Some great advice here, and ultimately it’s just hard! Getting a half decent composition, the car in focus, the background blurred and the wheels still turning takes some trial and error, which changes every time you move about the track or reposition.
Here’s a couple I took at spa earlier this year. Probably 10% hit ratio on the day whilst I’m still learning this new kit.
Here’s a couple I took at spa earlier this year. Probably 10% hit ratio on the day whilst I’m still learning this new kit.
Tony1963 said:
Benzinaio said:
Nice pic. Not as easy back then in the days of film.
I see your 1/30 and raise you a 1/25 shot.
Fittipaldi F5A by Jayson Cork, on Flickr
Naaa, my 35mm beats any digital shot I see your 1/30 and raise you a 1/25 shot.
Fittipaldi F5A by Jayson Cork, on FlickrAnd mine has been ‘liked’ by Tiff, so…
Edited by Derek Smith on Thursday 17th October 18:46
steveatesh said:
More great help, thanks everybody.
Bloody hell those shtte speeds are much less that what I was trying to use (1/125) !
Tony, I'll try that too cheers!
Steve
1/125th is a good starting point, then slow down the shutter speed as you get better.Bloody hell those shtte speeds are much less that what I was trying to use (1/125) !
Tony, I'll try that too cheers!
Steve
I find that the best place to be for panning in on the inside of a corner, so that the subject is following the same arc as your camera when you pan round - obviously this is easier said that done in the real world.
I love motorsport photography, but I also struggle with panning technique and low shutter speeds.
This one from LeMans is at 1/640. Enough to get some blur, but I found that anything less made the image soft
Ford GT #69 by Nigel Ogram, on Flickr
Because of my lack of skill, I tend to take more head-on shots, like these:
Ford GT V Porsche 911 RSR by Nigel Ogram, on Flickr
Jackson, Cole and Jackson by Nigel Ogram, on Flickr
They aren’t as good as a great panning shot, but there’s still some atmosphere to them.
This one from LeMans is at 1/640. Enough to get some blur, but I found that anything less made the image soft
Ford GT #69 by Nigel Ogram, on FlickrBecause of my lack of skill, I tend to take more head-on shots, like these:
Ford GT V Porsche 911 RSR by Nigel Ogram, on FlickrJackson, Cole and Jackson by Nigel Ogram, on FlickrThey aren’t as good as a great panning shot, but there’s still some atmosphere to them.
The key with panning is to practice, practice, practice, and the key is more in posture than settings on the camera. Pick up the vehicle early, smoothly turn your body, squeeze, but not jab at it the shutter button, and follow through the body motion after you've fired your shot. Repeat for next car. The best panners will be deleting lots of shots.
You are using the viewfinder and not using the rear screen I presume?
You are using the viewfinder and not using the rear screen I presume?
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