The death of fixed lens cameras?
Discussion
https://www.statista.com/chart/15524/worldwide-cam...
Non-interchangeable lens camera shipments have dropped from 109 million in 2010 to 1.7 million in 20203.
My rather lovely Panasonic TZ has just developed a fault. It was the family hack and has travelled extensively, just returning from the far east where, evidence suggests, it was dropped onto something hard. It was 18 years old, and replaced a previous compact.
I will not replace it. I have three M43 Panasonic G cameras. I will not be getting another compact, so I'll be without a small, fixed-lens camera for the first time since my early teens. I will replace my aging mobile phone with one with a better camera. I'm part of the problem.
Non-interchangeable lens camera shipments have dropped from 109 million in 2010 to 1.7 million in 20203.
My rather lovely Panasonic TZ has just developed a fault. It was the family hack and has travelled extensively, just returning from the far east where, evidence suggests, it was dropped onto something hard. It was 18 years old, and replaced a previous compact.
I will not replace it. I have three M43 Panasonic G cameras. I will not be getting another compact, so I'll be without a small, fixed-lens camera for the first time since my early teens. I will replace my aging mobile phone with one with a better camera. I'm part of the problem.
Derek Smith said:
I'm part of the problem.
You're not part of the problem, you're a late comer to a party that started in about 2010 or maybe earlier. A fixed lens camera or interchangeable lens camera can take lovely images but they are stuck on the memory card until you get them off and manually push them somewhere. A mobile phone camera has many apps running which can consume the images you take within seconds and publish them to the world, or your friends, or a doctor and upload to backup storage within minutes or a few hours, whatever you choose.
I don't think mobile phone images are better than camera images - they can be exceptionally good, but it's the accessibility that wins people over.
I remember being horrified at the treatment and killing of George Floyd during lockdown, I watched it on TikToc and at that moment I remember realising that news reporting had changed forever too. I could watch a video of an atrocity in the US just a few minutes after it happened, in the UK, unedited, without political comment or editorial control. Later on we have images from Ukraine and Gaza, horrific images and video showing what's happening again without editorial control or political 'adjustment'. (Hence why in places of conflict, the aggressor now seeks to destroy public comms infrastructure where it can.)
The mobile phone isn't just changing photography, that was just the tip of the iceberg - it's enabling societal change on a scale we've not seen before. And it's only just started.
Tony1963 said:
I can transfer images from my Canon R3 to my iPhone very easily. The images obviously leave my iPhone’s images looking rather pathetic.
Professional reporters have always had pro camera kit but they report through an editor and an agency and various people with political and editorial control. And as a reporter you have to know where to go, there's only a handful of you.The revolution is that Mr Average with no professional experience can hold a phone in the street in USA and beam an atrocity to the world, as it happens. The image or video won't be as good as from your R3 of course, but pro kit costs a lot, and in some streets would get the user mugged or killed, but a phone does the job and can be discrete.
The fact that Miss Average can also share photos and video immediately of her and her friends in Benidorm, is the other end of the fixed lens decline.
I still use a Ricoh GR3 regularly (fixed 28mm, f2.8 lens, with APC-C sensor) and it produces images that are magnitudes better than my iPhone 14. The size, detail, and sharpness in the images is absolutely sensational.
I think the images produced by camera phones are extremely impressive, mostly due to the heavy processing, but for getting the best out of your RAW files, and especially for printing at a larger scale, a camera phone will (for the foreseeable future anyway) always be beaten by a decent fixed lens compact camera or anything interchangeable lens. You can't change the laws of physics, and at the moment, bigger lenses and bigger sensors still win.
The death of the fixed lens camera will continue, as will the death of other forms of cameras, but I believe there will always be a couple of manufacturers who will step up to serve the enthusiast market who want a great pocket camera.
95% of my photography is done on my iPhone, as it is only just family snaps and other things like that, but if I'm going on holiday or just fancy doing a bit of street photography, then I always still reach for my Ricoh.
I think the images produced by camera phones are extremely impressive, mostly due to the heavy processing, but for getting the best out of your RAW files, and especially for printing at a larger scale, a camera phone will (for the foreseeable future anyway) always be beaten by a decent fixed lens compact camera or anything interchangeable lens. You can't change the laws of physics, and at the moment, bigger lenses and bigger sensors still win.
The death of the fixed lens camera will continue, as will the death of other forms of cameras, but I believe there will always be a couple of manufacturers who will step up to serve the enthusiast market who want a great pocket camera.
95% of my photography is done on my iPhone, as it is only just family snaps and other things like that, but if I'm going on holiday or just fancy doing a bit of street photography, then I always still reach for my Ricoh.
SteveKTMer said:
The mobile phone isn't just changing photography, that was just the tip of the iceberg - it's enabling societal change on a scale we've not seen before. And it's only just started.
I hold the rise of the smartphone responsible for the rise of mental health issues among children. I would make them adult-only.SteveKTMer said:
Professional reporters have always had pro camera kit but they report through an editor and an agency and various people with political and editorial control. And as a reporter you have to know where to go, there's only a handful of you.
The revolution is that Mr Average with no professional experience can hold a phone in the street in USA and beam an atrocity to the world, as it happens. The image or video won't be as good as from your R3 of course, but pro kit costs a lot, and in some streets would get the user mugged or killed, but a phone does the job and can be discrete.
The fact that Miss Average can also share photos and video immediately of her and her friends in Benidorm, is the other end of the fixed lens decline.
I’m not a reporter! The revolution is that Mr Average with no professional experience can hold a phone in the street in USA and beam an atrocity to the world, as it happens. The image or video won't be as good as from your R3 of course, but pro kit costs a lot, and in some streets would get the user mugged or killed, but a phone does the job and can be discrete.
The fact that Miss Average can also share photos and video immediately of her and her friends in Benidorm, is the other end of the fixed lens decline.
I’m a just-retired aircraft maintainer who treated himself. The rest of your post is true but all well known, nothing new. However, the facility I use to transfer a high quality image to my phone in around twenty to thirty seconds (just one image, from firing up the app etc to image being ready to edit/send/share) will be on every new mirrorless very swiftly.
Simpo Two said:
SteveKTMer said:
The mobile phone isn't just changing photography, that was just the tip of the iceberg - it's enabling societal change on a scale we've not seen before. And it's only just started.
I hold the rise of the smartphone responsible for the rise of mental health issues among children. I would make them adult-only.Tony1963 said:
SteveKTMer said:
Professional reporters have always had pro camera kit but they report through an editor and an agency and various people with political and editorial control. And as a reporter you have to know where to go, there's only a handful of you.
The revolution is that Mr Average with no professional experience can hold a phone in the street in USA and beam an atrocity to the world, as it happens. The image or video won't be as good as from your R3 of course, but pro kit costs a lot, and in some streets would get the user mugged or killed, but a phone does the job and can be discrete.
The fact that Miss Average can also share photos and video immediately of her and her friends in Benidorm, is the other end of the fixed lens decline.
I’m not a reporter! The revolution is that Mr Average with no professional experience can hold a phone in the street in USA and beam an atrocity to the world, as it happens. The image or video won't be as good as from your R3 of course, but pro kit costs a lot, and in some streets would get the user mugged or killed, but a phone does the job and can be discrete.
The fact that Miss Average can also share photos and video immediately of her and her friends in Benidorm, is the other end of the fixed lens decline.
I’m a just-retired aircraft maintainer who treated himself. The rest of your post is true but all well known, nothing new. However, the facility I use to transfer a high quality image to my phone in around twenty to thirty seconds (just one image, from firing up the app etc to image being ready to edit/send/share) will be on every new mirrorless very swiftly.
. They are why fixed lens cameras are just for the art now, not for the masses. And most people don't want a pro camera now either, being too heavy and bulky compared to a phone.I like modern cameras, very much, makes an average photographer like me look much better than he is but the ability to quickly transfer images to a phone is a recent innovation, I remember with my 5dii from 2008-2010 I had to find a flash card reader then edit the images on a computer. Now I take photos on my phone, edit them and send them on in a matter of a minute or two.
SteveKTMer said:
I appreciate that but the OP was coming at this from a 2010 perspective . They are why fixed lens cameras are just for the art now, not for the masses. And most people don't want a pro camera now either, being too heavy and bulky compared to a phone.
I like modern cameras, very much, makes an average photographer like me look much better than he is but the ability to quickly transfer images to a phone is a recent innovation, I remember with my 5dii from 2008-2010 I had to find a flash card reader then edit the images on a computer. Now I take photos on my phone, edit them and send them on in a matter of a minute or two.
Not “I”, “We”! . They are why fixed lens cameras are just for the art now, not for the masses. And most people don't want a pro camera now either, being too heavy and bulky compared to a phone.I like modern cameras, very much, makes an average photographer like me look much better than he is but the ability to quickly transfer images to a phone is a recent innovation, I remember with my 5dii from 2008-2010 I had to find a flash card reader then edit the images on a computer. Now I take photos on my phone, edit them and send them on in a matter of a minute or two.
I had an Eye-fi SD card in my 5D3 for a while. It worked, but it was a pain, and I gave up.
I could see the end of compact cameras when my brother brought his Sony Ericsson T-68i to Brands Hatch with its clip-on camera! Yes, the images were very poor, but it was a wake up moment for me.
I’ve over 22k images on my iPhone, and that’s after regular trimming of the library. I used to take iPhone photos of where I took some ‘proper’ photos so I had the geolocation. That’s another silly task I don’t need to do.
But yes, a Leica digital rangefinder style camera with modern comms will always be an attractive thing, especially for those who value such image quality.
SteveKTMer said:
Tony1963 said:
SteveKTMer said:
Professional reporters have always had pro camera kit but they report through an editor and an agency and various people with political and editorial control. And as a reporter you have to know where to go, there's only a handful of you.
The revolution is that Mr Average with no professional experience can hold a phone in the street in USA and beam an atrocity to the world, as it happens. The image or video won't be as good as from your R3 of course, but pro kit costs a lot, and in some streets would get the user mugged or killed, but a phone does the job and can be discrete.
The fact that Miss Average can also share photos and video immediately of her and her friends in Benidorm, is the other end of the fixed lens decline.
I’m not a reporter! The revolution is that Mr Average with no professional experience can hold a phone in the street in USA and beam an atrocity to the world, as it happens. The image or video won't be as good as from your R3 of course, but pro kit costs a lot, and in some streets would get the user mugged or killed, but a phone does the job and can be discrete.
The fact that Miss Average can also share photos and video immediately of her and her friends in Benidorm, is the other end of the fixed lens decline.
I’m a just-retired aircraft maintainer who treated himself. The rest of your post is true but all well known, nothing new. However, the facility I use to transfer a high quality image to my phone in around twenty to thirty seconds (just one image, from firing up the app etc to image being ready to edit/send/share) will be on every new mirrorless very swiftly.
. They are why fixed lens cameras are just for the art now, not for the masses. And most people don't want a pro camera now either, being too heavy and bulky compared to a phone.I like modern cameras, very much, makes an average photographer like me look much better than he is but the ability to quickly transfer images to a phone is a recent innovation, I remember with my 5dii from 2008-2010 I had to find a flash card reader then edit the images on a computer. Now I take photos on my phone, edit them and send them on in a matter of a minute or two.
Until it was dropped, I used to take my compact everywhere. If a shot presented itself, I could take a photo quicker than someone with a mobile, and with greater detail, plus the various controls the software allows. My TZ was 12mp and at a mobile camera chat run by my camera club, the lecturer reckoned that her iPhone was over 50mp (can't remember the actual number). Sounds great until you realise it's not really. It's just software guessing at various pixels.
Also, do mobile phones last for 18 years? Asking for a friend.
SteveKTMer said:
I like modern cameras, very much, makes an average photographer like me look much better than he is but the ability to quickly transfer images to a phone is a recent innovation, I remember with my 5dii from 2008-2010 I had to find a flash card reader then edit the images on a computer.
Flash-card reader? That's very 2010 in outlook.SteveKTMer said:
Now I take photos on my phone, edit them and send them on in a matter of a minute or two.
As can I.Be careful of believing images sent from an iPhone (others available) to social media are the unvarnished truth. It may well have been edited. It may well have been produced before the event. It may well be a political message. It may well be meant for you.
Newspaper and TV news editors are restricted by law from deliberately printing, and posting false information online on on broadcasts. Such videos as those of George Floyd are delayed on mainstream media outlets because source has to be checked.
Cameraphones are great. But, just as they allow us to see events in short time, the streaming services also give opportunities to those who wish to spread false information the same facilities.
Derek Smith said:
Also, do mobile phones last for 18 years? Asking for a friend.
Absolutely not, but they don't need to I suppose.I tend to get 2-3 years out of an iPhone before the battery begins to degrade noticeably, and I then replace it. Each time I replace it, the camera technology gets better so it isn't necessarily a bad thing.
I suppose if you look at a smartphone as being much more than 'a phone and a camera' then it actually represents good value. It is the device that I use for a huge amount of things, as it has replaced many other items that I would otherwise buy and use separately.
Mont Blanc said:
Derek Smith said:
Also, do mobile phones last for 18 years? Asking for a friend.
Absolutely not I've recently completed a project for a client on the subject e-waste; specifically smart phones and tablets so had to research this subject.
The 'theoretical' life span of a smart phone is around 15 years. This discounts the battery which is considered a consumable part as it's replaceable (although doing so is somewhat of a faff) and is determined by the efficiency of the touch screen and casing both of which degrade with use over time. It's the durability of these materials that correlate to their life-span.
It's theoretical because we each treat and use our phones differently and they generally exist in harsh environments which accelerates their decline in usability.... if not with the phone, certainly with the camera function where the lens is exposed to levels of damage that we'd strive hard to avoid with even the cheapest of cameras.
It doesn't help that we don't buy our phones outright. If people went out and paid £1,500 for the latest iPhone separately to the phone contract, it would be taken much greater care of and retained for longer.
Either way, obsolescence is normally triggered by software rather than hardware. If you look after your phone and aren't worried about using the latest version of whatever, there's no reason to think it wouldn't last for many, many years.
StevieBee said:
Mont Blanc said:
Derek Smith said:
Also, do mobile phones last for 18 years? Asking for a friend.
Absolutely not I've recently completed a project for a client on the subject e-waste; specifically smart phones and tablets so had to research this subject.
The 'theoretical' life span of a smart phone is around 15 years. This discounts the battery which is considered a consumable part as it's replaceable (although doing so is somewhat of a faff) and is determined by the efficiency of the touch screen and casing both of which degrade with use over time. It's the durability of these materials that correlate to their life-span.
It's theoretical because we each treat and use our phones differently and they generally exist in harsh environments which accelerates their decline in usability.... if not with the phone, certainly with the camera function where the lens is exposed to levels of damage that we'd strive hard to avoid with even the cheapest of cameras.
It doesn't help that we don't buy our phones outright. If people went out and paid £1,500 for the latest iPhone separately to the phone contract, it would be taken much greater care of and retained for longer.
Either way, obsolescence is normally triggered by software rather than hardware. If you look after your phone and aren't worried about using the latest version of whatever, there's no reason to think it wouldn't last for many, many years.
I did keep an iPhone longer than that once, and got to about 3.5 years before the home button failed, which was annoying as I had only had the battery replaced at a cost of £80 a couple of months earlier. Then the speaker went faulty. I decided to change every 2ish years after that.
I get what you are saying, and that anything can be repaired, but it becomes a bit 'triggers broom'. Also, if the software causes the obselesance, then I still consider that to be the item defunct. One way or another, it has reached the end of its useful life (Note useful life, not just life).
I'm running on 5 year cycles for iPhones recently, albeit with a battery replacement after a couple of years. I went iPhone 7 to iPhone 12 mini, which I am in no hurry to replace, as there is no small option any more. But maybe I am an outlier, as I also have a fixed lens camera, a Fuji X100V.
don't fully buy the "death of the fixed lens camera", as the X100V, and X100VI have been really constrained on supply - Fuji cannot make them fast enough, and they were selling over RRP. Likewise the Ricoh GR3 has been hard to get hold of. I think fixed lens cameras are actually having a bit of a resurgence.
don't fully buy the "death of the fixed lens camera", as the X100V, and X100VI have been really constrained on supply - Fuji cannot make them fast enough, and they were selling over RRP. Likewise the Ricoh GR3 has been hard to get hold of. I think fixed lens cameras are actually having a bit of a resurgence.
Derek Smith said:
https://www.statista.com/chart/15524/worldwide-cam...
Non-interchangeable lens camera shipments have dropped from 109 million in 2010 to 1.7 million in 20203.
My rather lovely Panasonic TZ has just developed a fault. It was the family hack and has travelled extensively, just returning from the far east where, evidence suggests, it was dropped onto something hard. It was 18 years old, and replaced a previous compact.
I will not replace it. I have three M43 Panasonic G cameras. I will not be getting another compact, so I'll be without a small, fixed-lens camera for the first time since my early teens. I will replace my aging mobile phone with one with a better camera. I'm part of the problem.
I've recently picked up a secondhand Fujifilm x100 as a general out and about day camera to supplement my R3 kit. It's small enough to slip into a pocket and carry around during the day, rather than lug around a camera bag full of equipment. Its performance is good, and its actually made photography fun again. It enables full control and also allows you to 'pre-process' your images by selecting different film types to apply when you take the shot (i.e. B&W, Velvia, B&W with Orange filter etc), which adds another interesting decision when taking a picture.Non-interchangeable lens camera shipments have dropped from 109 million in 2010 to 1.7 million in 20203.
My rather lovely Panasonic TZ has just developed a fault. It was the family hack and has travelled extensively, just returning from the far east where, evidence suggests, it was dropped onto something hard. It was 18 years old, and replaced a previous compact.
I will not replace it. I have three M43 Panasonic G cameras. I will not be getting another compact, so I'll be without a small, fixed-lens camera for the first time since my early teens. I will replace my aging mobile phone with one with a better camera. I'm part of the problem.
I still use my R3 kit for its main purpose (motorsport), but the x100 gets used more often.
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