Venturing into a Full Frame - help me decide!

[Resolutionary]

Long time DSLR user here - started off with a 450D many years ago and currently have a 70D. I still have and use both bodies (the 450D much less so -it's my 'shed' of a camera), along with the following lenses:

Samyang 8mm f/3.5 USM
EF-S 24mm f/2.8
EF-S 10-18mm f/4.5-5.6 IS
EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS
Tamron 18-270mm f/3.5-6.3 Di II
EF 50mm f/1.8
EF 100mm f/2.8 macro USM
EF 70-200 f/4L IS USM
EF 75-300mm f/4.0-5.6 III
Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 C

I predominantly shoot wildlife, car shows, weddings / life events and street - the 70D has been a trusty companion throughout the last few years. However:

- Crop sensor - EF lens focal lengths are not 'true'
- Low light capabilities are frankly atrocious
- I'm not confident it is weather sealed to any discernible degree
- I've never been astounded with the video functionality / quality

Things I love (and would therefore like to retain in the upgrade):

- Flip + touch screen; so damn helpful, I use mine a lot
- Autofocus; 19 cross-type AF points very handy day to day
- Fast enough for my needs
- Battery life is excellent; I often get 300+ RAW shots and video as well with charge to spare
- Relatively light and unobtrusive

I have a budget of around £2k for a body alone. I've been eyeing up the 6D Mk II because it seems in essence to be everything my 70D is, and more. Realistically I want to make the most of my EF lenses (and get some L series glass in the mid/long term), and have a dedicated back-up EF-S mountable body - both of which I can take on future shoots / paid jobs / holidays / etc.

The 6D is seemingly the go-to 'beginners' full frame. I may be overlooking other options because of my experience of the 70D - so I put it to you all; what would work for me given my summary above?

Thanks in advance!

---

TL;DR: is the 6D MkII any good?!

Edited by Resolutionary on Thursday 1st March 16:13

[Simpo Two]

I don't know Canon gear but first questions - how many of your lenses will work on FF / how many will you need to replace if you go FF?

As I understand it the benefits of FF, all else being equal, are about a stop better ISO and shallower DOF capability. On the downside you lose 33% 'reach' (which may or may not be an issue to you) and lenses are generally bigger and heavier.

Mind you I speak as a person who went for FF, found it didn't suit my needs and went back to crop. Just getting to grips with a D500.

[corozin]

As a general rule, you cannot use EF-S lenses (the ones with the white alinging squares) on Canon full frame cameras, only EF (the ones with the red aligning dots) will work.

There is a list someone on the Canon website which shows you the lens compatibility. If you do buy a 6D or similar there is some stuff in the manual on lens compatability too

[Tony1963]

I went from 40D with 11--16, 17-85 and 70-200 f/2.8, to 5D3 with 16-35, 50, 70-200 f/2.8 and a 1.4x.

My photography took a massive leap forward when I went FF. Don't just look at facts and figures, they really don't tell the whole story. Try to borrow a demo body for an hour and rattle off some well thought out photos. If ff is for you, you'll be blown away. If it's not, you'll be wondering what the fuss is about.

[Simpo Two]

I'm not taking sides here but it's amusing to reflect that 35mm, now seen as the Holy Grail of photography, was seen as Mickey Mouse when introduced. 10" x 8", that's what real men use

[Tony1963]

Yeah. 10x8, what a weapon for high speed motorsport and porn mags!

[Simpo Two]

But think of the ISO and shallow DOF!

(and the file sizes, ulp)

[rich888]

You have a very nice selection of lenses which I can only drool over.

If it's any help I was in the market for a FF camera last year and was reading up on all the reviews between the Nikon and Canon cameras.

The shortlist ended between buying the 6D Mk1 or the 5D Mk3, what settled it for me was that the focusing system on the 5D3 was regarded as much superior for photographing moving objects so I went out and bought one as a Christmas present to myself. I've been very pleased with the purchase with no complaints so far.

Now had I been shooting more portrait or wedding photographs it might have been more difficult to make the decision because most of the reviews state that the 6D may be better in that respect. I'm not a good enough photographer to make comment on that score but have been well chuffed with the results achieved to date.

My current wish-list for lenses is:

Canon 100mm f/2.8 macro
Canon 24-70 f/2.8
Canon 70-200 f/2.8

Take a look at the https://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/ website for some of the best prices in the UK.

[flight147z]

Resolutionary said:

- Low light capabilities are frankly atrocious

Edited by Resolutionary on Thursday 1st March 16:13

Surely that's pushing it a bit for any modern DSLR? Whilst full frame will be better you might want to revise your expectations as to how big the difference will be just from a new body.
If you want to see a big difference here you need better lenses than what you're currently using

[Resolutionary]

Thanks for the responses folks - really useful info.

Simpo Two said:

As I understand it the benefits of FF, all else being equal, are about a stop better ISO and shallower DOF capability. On the downside you lose 33% 'reach' (which may or may not be an issue to you) and lenses are generally bigger and heavier.

Mind you I speak as a person who went for FF, found it didn't suit my needs and went back to crop. Just getting to grips with a D500.

corozin said:

As a general rule, you cannot use EF-S lenses (the ones with the white alinging squares) on Canon full frame cameras, only EF (the ones with the red aligning dots) will work.

There is a list someone on the Canon website which shows you the lens compatibility. If you do buy a 6D or similar there is some stuff in the manual on lens compatability too

To be honest I think the very fact that I 'lose reach' is one of the things spurring me on. All my EF lenses perform on my crop body but don't give me the true focal length, so with my 50mm for example I am getting more like 80mm. This is great when it comes to my Sigma superzoom, because 600mm becomes 960 - but elsewhere in my lens range I am being cheated (for want of a better word).

Tony1963 said:

My photography took a massive leap forward when I went FF. Don't just look at facts and figures, they really don't tell the whole story. Try to borrow a demo body for an hour and rattle off some well thought out photos. If ff is for you, you'll be blown away. If it's not, you'll be wondering what the fuss is about.

This is it really - I've had well paid jobs come through because of my abilities with a crop sensor, and I know I'll reap the benefits on offer with a FF. I've tested a friends 5DIII and was really, really impressed with the thing - I'm confident that having a crop and a full frame in my squad will let me enjoy my lens collection to the maximum and give me the tools to be adaptable to a variety of shooting conditions / situations.

rich888 said:

You have a very nice selection of lenses which I can only drool over.

If it's any help I was in the market for a FF camera last year and was reading up on all the reviews between the Nikon and Canon cameras.

The shortlist ended between buying the 6D Mk1 or the 5D Mk3, what settled it for me was that the focusing system on the 5D3 was regarded as much superior for photographing moving objects so I went out and bought one as a Christmas present to myself. I've been very pleased with the purchase with no complaints so far.

Now had I been shooting more portrait or wedding photographs it might have been more difficult to make the decision because most of the reviews state that the 6D may be better in that respect. I'm not a good enough photographer to make comment on that score but have been well chuffed with the results achieved to date.

My current wish-list for lenses is:

Canon 100mm f/2.8 macro
Canon 24-70 f/2.8
Canon 70-200 f/2.8

Take a look at the https://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/ website for some of the best prices in the UK.

The 70D was a turning point for me - I quickly realised the most important element really is the glass (in a general sense anyway). My friend got himself a 5DIII at Christmas time too, which has effectively brought on this urge to dive into a FF. He is staunchly into his current gear though, and not overly fussed by a flip out screen as he tends to do urbex and landscape, whereas I have a pretty broad spectrum of shooting scenarios. It's really good to hear that your plunge has been worthwhile! I'll check out the website too, thanks!

flight147z said:

Surely that's pushing it a bit for any modern DSLR? Whilst full frame will be better you might want to revise your expectations as to how big the difference will be just from a new body.
If you want to see a big difference here you need better lenses than what you're currently using

Perhaps I should have said 'noise' since that is what you notice more and more dramatically past around ISO4000 on the 70D. They updated the sensor for the 80D but I've seen for myself during a night time shoot that the FF capabilities do a giant wee wee all over the crop I currently have.

I may have to hire out a 6DII and see what it's like to live with. I guess my primary goal is to retain the functionality the 70D gives, while being able to enjoy the benefits that come with a full frame - and at a pretty reasonable price. The 6DII is considered entry level and I'm far from a professional, so it could be the start of something good!

Someone I know mentioned 'grey imports' as an option to save a bit of cash - not something I'd really want to do with a body but lenses..

[Dan_1981]

Did you see the launch of the Sony A7RIII in the last couple of days??

Decent adapter and all your lenses will work....

[Resolutionary]

Dan_1981 said:

Did you see the launch of the Sony A7RIII in the last couple of days??

Decent adapter and all your lenses will work....

I did! It's a beauty, though I'm really not familiar with mirrorless systems and generally like Canon so far. I know Sony have absolutely smashed it in terms of camera tech this last few years so it is tempting - but to face facts, I don't have three grand to spend on a camera. If I did I'd rather the £1,600 body and a nice lens or two.

[SMB]

budget 2K you say? can you stretch £150 more for a 5d4?

[Resolutionary]

SMB said:

budget 2K you say? can you stretch £150 more for a 5d4?

£2k at most really, and I would much prefer not to spend that! Can a 5D4 really be had for just over?!

I know there is some contention about the 6D2 focus points - they appear to be lifted from the 80D's crop sensor and don't really stretch in the view finder - but I use manual focus an awful lot anyway. Other than the AF what gives the 5D4 it's premium?

[DavidY]

Without budget for a 24-70 or 24-105 lens, I feel that you will not see the full benefit of the 'upgrade'. A lot of what you want to shoot is in the 27-70 range, and you only have the EF50mm to cover that

[SMB]

Resolutionary said:

£2k at most really, and I would much prefer not to spend that! Can a 5D4 really be had for just over?!

I know there is some contention about the 6D2 focus points - they appear to be lifted from the 80D's crop sensor and don't really stretch in the view finder - but I use manual focus an awful lot anyway. Other than the AF what gives the 5D4 it's premium?

The main compare is the AF ( something I use for action stuff) Brand New with 3 year warranty , UK supplied ( you can collect if local) for £2149 currently from HDEW. but I agree with others you need to spend money on lenses aswell, if not first

[Resolutionary]

DavidY said:

Without budget for a 24-70 or 24-105 lens, I feel that you will not see the full benefit of the 'upgrade'. A lot of what you want to shoot is in the 27-70 range, and you only have the EF50mm to cover that

Funny you should say that actually - the same friend who has a 5D4 is offering me his 24-105 L (first gen) for peanuts, it's in great nick and he went for the mark II so it's surplus. Hence, if I get a 6D2 for £1,500 or thereabouts, I can pick up his L and have some cash spare, maybe for another prime.

SMB said:

The main compare is the AF ( something I use for action stuff) Brand New with 3 year warranty , UK supplied ( you can collect if local) for £2149 currently from HDEW. but I agree with others you need to spend money on lenses aswell, if not first

That's bloody good. I've seen some bundles including the lenses DavidY mentions above, but as stated I have the opportunity to buy some used L glass at mates rates so I will be able to make the most of the FF, moreso as time (and budget) goes by.

I know it sounds bad but I want to make my money stretch as far as possible - it'll be the biggest single expense I make to date on camera stuff -

[Simpo Two]

Resolutionary said:

To be honest I think the very fact that I 'lose reach' is one of the things spurring me on. All my EF lenses perform on my crop body but don't give me the true focal length, so with my 50mm for example I am getting more like 80mm. This is great when it comes to my Sigma superzoom, because 600mm becomes 960 - but elsewhere in my lens range I am being cheated (for want of a better word).

All the crop sensor is doing is taking the middle part from the frame - which also loses the corners and edges where IQ is worst. You win on telephoto and lose on wide angle (though is a 10mm lens not wide enough for you?) Also I'd ask how often you actually need to exceed ISO4000, or whether it's just a chase to get the highest number, and whether any minor noise is really an issue when the image is viewed at a normal size. We can all zoom in and in and in until a problem jumps out, but that's not what photography is about...

If a FF camera is going to bring you real, actually useful benefits then go for it. If it's not, well, you have £2K burning a hole in your wallet and gearfest is a very hard condition to treat

[damianmkv]

The below are all ISO 4000 on a d500, last 2 1/15s and 1/10s HH

home coming by damianmkv, on Flickr

here comes the snow by damianmkv, on Flickr

boy in the blizzard by damianmkv, on Flickr

Sometimes I desire FF for the narrow DoF but I'm not sure it's worth it for me

[Phunk]

Resolutionary said:

DavidY said:

Without budget for a 24-70 or 24-105 lens, I feel that you will not see the full benefit of the 'upgrade'. A lot of what you want to shoot is in the 27-70 range, and you only have the EF50mm to cover that

Funny you should say that actually - the same friend who has a 5D4 is offering me his 24-105 L (first gen) for peanuts, it's in great nick and he went for the mark II so it's surplus. Hence, if I get a 6D2 for £1,500 or thereabouts, I can pick up his L and have some cash spare, maybe for another prime.

Do this, the 6D II get's some great reviews, and as you say yourself glass is even more important!

The difference between the 6D II and 5D4 won't make a huge difference to you for the most part.

The flip out screen is a huge plus for the 6DII and I'd get it just for that

(I've got a 5DIII and considering the 6DII)