Thinking of switching to Sony - any Pro's done this?

[kVA]

I shoot dog agility and flyball, mostly, but it would be the same as any high speed sport where people / animals move in 3-dimensions, unpredictably (e.g. Basketball, Ice-hockey, etc...) often in low light - so high ISO and super-fast and accurate focus tracking (in 3-D) are essential...

I shoot a lot of continuous bursts of 1-2 seconds and am getting fed up with the mirror movement cocking-up the focussing in 30% of them.

Been reading great things about the Sony SLT system, with no mirror (also probably a lot quieter, for wildlife and more noise-sensitive dogs) and thinking of switching from Nikon (D700 and D300s).

Any serious amateurs or Pro's ever done this? Be interested to know what you think (or why you didn't do it if you thought about it, but stuck with Canon / Nikon)

Cheers

[Simpo Two]

I have no idea, but looking at the blurb:

http://www.sony.co.uk/hub/dslr-slt/range/slt-a58


- if it was really that good (and all for £449) they'd all be doing it wouldn't they?

[Gemm]

Some of the reviews I've seen concluded that 'good, but it's not Canon or Nikon. Stick to C or N if you are after good quality glass'.

[K12beano]

Doesn't it look good?

Marketing Department said:

automatically cropping your picture for pro-style results.

Could somebody just explain to me what "pro-style results" are, please?

[Gemm]

K12beano said:

Marketing Department said:

automatically cropping your picture for pro-style results.

Could somebody just explain to me what "pro-style results" are, please?

I think that's going to annoy me so much (whatever it does)!

[K12beano]

Serious point (the first one was serious, too - I just didn't know what it meant).


It's got to be faster than a conventional SLR using a mirror box, right. And the marketing material makes some claims (including it's the fastest FPS you'll find in this part of the Universe - which makes sense). But I can't actually see what the measured shutter lag is? Anyone?

(for comparison a D800 is slightly faster than a D700 but slower than my old D2X at, respectively .42 v .45 v .37 ms, so Nikon have been slowly going backwards over a decade!!!)

[Otispunkmeyer]

K12beano said:

Doesn't it look good?

Marketing Department said:

automatically cropping your picture for pro-style results.

Could somebody just explain to me what "pro-style results" are, please?

garbage feature... It was enabled by default on my NEX-6. It figures out where the face and body is and then crops the image. It can look a little better, cutting out the background guff, but I just found it annoying and hit and miss. I can do it myself later if I like. Its a feature for the P&S chimp who bought an expensive camera to "take awesome photos" and is just going to use them as is from the camera.

Also the SLT cameras I think can do a good 10 fps, but as they have no mirror per-se (they have a translucent mirror that splits light between an AF module and the image sensor) they have electronic view finders. The current 2.4 million dot EVF's on the sonys are very nice to look through but IMO, they still don't come close to beating an optical one.

From what I understand though, the AF is fast and accurate and is supposed to be able to keep moving targets in focus even at 10 fps because while the shutter is operating, the mirror never moves so the AF systems view of the scene is never interrupted.

As for shutter lag...if you mean pressing the button to photo taken, on my NEX its pretty much instant. It gives the option of front curtain shutter on (mechanical) or off (electrical). With the latter set the movement is, sensor electronically zero'd, image taken, shutter closes, image read, shutter opens. With the former the shutter closes, sensor is zero'd, shutter opens, shutter closes, image read, shutter opens.

So it is very quick in that respect. I know my NEW doesnt have a mirror at all, but I would suspect the operation is broadly similar. The inclusion of the mirror just means they can have superior AF to what can be achieved with on-sensor phase and contrast detection.

However, there are times when you need to use the mechanical first curtain. Apparently there can be issues with wide aperture and telephoto lenses at high shutter speeds. And some guys reported a higher number of sharp images at lower shutter speeds with the mechanical shutter too.

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Thursday 4th April 12:41

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Thursday 4th April 12:46

[Simpo Two]

EVF.

That's like a Jaguar saleman not telling you it actually only has three wheels.

[kVA]

Otispunkmeyer said:

From what I understand though, the AF is fast and accurate and is supposed to be able to keep moving targets in focus even at 10 fps because while the shutter is operating, the mirror never moves so the AF systems view of the scene is never interrupted.

THIS is exactly what I am after - bloody annoying losing one in 3 of a continuous burst, and of course, it's always the best shot!!!! Especially with flyball, where I shoot about 1 second to catch the turn - the perfect shot is the one just after they've retrieved the ball and are turning back down the lane - flying drool everywhere, ears and coat in all directions, due to the change in direction momentum and the hardest one to hold focus on, as a result... So the bloody mirror getting in the way turns it into a lottery! I seriously think I could sell 3 times as many flyball pictures, if the Sony fixes this...

Otispunkmeyer said:

However, I think what is gained in speed (at least on the NEX system) you might lose in IQ at lower shutter speeds. Seen some results on the net where having the mechanical front curtain shutter = a better time shooting at low shutter speeds. With the electronic first curtain, theres a higher chance the result will have motion blur where you havent been able to keep the camera still. I think it is to do with how the electronic curtain works, it must be some persistence of the image so it ends up looking like there are two images with motion between them.

Of no consequence to me, I will probably keep my D700 anyway, but I hardly ever shoot below 1/500 second for anything (certainly anything I get paid for, anyway! )

Thanks for some really useful feedback: It would be the A99 that I would be after anyway, so if the above poster knows where I can get my hands on one for less than a bag of sand, I'll be right there

[kVA]

Simpo Two said:

EVF.

That's like a Jaguar saleman not telling you it actually only has three wheels.

As the first 'Jaguars' had that, maybe not so bad, after all?

Seriously though, I would be looking at the SLT models, so you would only use the EVF for video, or photographing from awkward angles - exactly the same way as I can do with my D300s or D700...

In your haste to diss new technology, you haven't read the tech. spec, have you?

[Simpo Two]

kVA said:

I would be looking at the SLT models, so you would only use the EVF for video, or photographing from awkward angles - exactly the same way as I can do with my D300s or D700...

You may mean monitor. But if the VF is optical, fair enough.

kVA said:

In your haste to diss new technology, you haven't read the tech. spec, have you?

Any list that includes 'pro-style cropping' must be regarded with suspicion. Much of this 'new technology' I think is Sony strapping toys on to try to compete. Which is laudable, you just need to be able to tell the difference between a real feature and a made-up one



NB In an unfair comparison I'm minded of the Skoda adverts of the 1970s - a picture of a car surrounded by lots of features and arrows. Except the features were roughly 'glass windscreen', 'rubber tyres', 'opening door' etc

Edited by Simpo Two on Thursday 4th April 13:25

[K12beano]

Camera technology seems a lot like cars.

The basic ideas were sorted in the C19th, and apart from playing with digital thingies it's mostly marketing bling since!!!!


Just looking out the window, while supposed to be doing proper "stuff", I wonder if someone can make me a camera that'll go out and take the shot in the snow so I don't have to............

[Otispunkmeyer]

None of the Sony SLT cameras have an optical Through The Lens view finder. Its a result of the technology. The pellicle mirror splits light between an AF sensor and the Image sensor (Which I believe on some models also has a layer of AF sensors on it so you have dual AF hardware). It cannot also split light to a view finder (and I guess it would be horrible to look through).

Normal SLR's have a mirror that deflects all the light up into a penta-prism/penta-mirror for your eyes to behold. This light also goes to the AF module. The mirror flips out the way to take the shot, hence, during the shot you and the AF module cannot see. Hence continuous AF is interrupted. The SLT system allows the AF to keep an eye on the target at all times. The A99 will do 6 FPS with this, though that is a FF camera...I think it can go into a crop mode to bump the speed higher.

So its Electronic Eye View Finders all the way for Sony SLT. As I said the Sony EVF's are pretty nice as EVFs go owing to their insane resolution. Still dont have the clarity of an optical one though. Also I hear there is an NEX 7n on the way and with a new 8 million dot EVF. Would love to see what that looks like.

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Thursday 4th April 13:55

[Mr Will]

kVA said:

Seriously though, I would be looking at the SLT models, so you would only use the EVF for video, or photographing from awkward angles - exactly the same way as I can do with my D300s or D700...

I think you are misunderstanding what an EVF is; it's not the screen on the back, it's a little screen inside the camera where the viewfinder would normally be.

[K12beano]

Otispunkmeyer said:

..... Its a result casualty of the technology.

Shame

Otispunkmeyer said:

....an NEX 7n on the way and with a new 8 million dot EVF. Would love to see what that looks like.

Got to be worth a squizz....

[Otispunkmeyer]

K12beano said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

..... Its a result casualty of the technology.

Shame

There are pro's and cons IMO. The EVF can display a lot more information, more clearly than the static displays in a Optical viewfinder. Want the histogram? no problem, want to change from a rule of 3rds grid to a finer grid or no grid? no problem. Want a preview of what the exposure will look like? peaking mode to see whats in focus (much more useful than the DoF preview), want to see what the scene looks like as a B&W? no problem!

So its much more flexible from an information standpoint.

But then to look at...it can fall short. At night it can become laggy and show considerable noise as it tries to boost the levels so you can actually see what you're looking at. The clarity just isnt there unless its bright sunshine outside. They're by no means unusable though.

[K12beano]

All very true.

i think we can all get a bit too "excited" about having all the info in the viewfinder. A good one tells just enough to see you're not doing something way off what you want and lets you concentrate on the scene.

Best ones I ever had were the old rangefinders on something like a Kiev. Nothing to look at apart from getting the lens in focus and then maybe remember the parallax errors!!! Interestingly the new compact Fuji has kept it that simple - X20. Instantly likeable to the Old Duffers Brigade!

[kVA]

Mr Will said:

kVA said:

Seriously though, I would be looking at the SLT models, so you would only use the EVF for video, or photographing from awkward angles - exactly the same way as I can do with my D300s or D700...

I think you are misunderstanding what an EVF is; it's not the screen on the back, it's a little screen inside the camera where the viewfinder would normally be.

Ah, OK, yes, it seems I did misunderstand (as did the person who wrote the review I was looking at, obviously )

I still think the benefits may outweigh the disadvantages for me, though... Dogs move way too fast for me to be able to 'focus' my eyes on detail, so all I need to be able to see is enough to keep the focus point on the dog and hope the AF system is up to the job!!! I guess if you were shooting weddings, portraits, architecture or landscapes, that would be an issue, but irrelevant for me.

Really need to try one - wonder if Sony will lend me one for a shoot? I do have a concern that the 70-200 f2.8 may not be as fast focussing as my Nikkor, according to the review I read (admittedly from a die-hard Nikon enthusiast, with black and yellow blood in his veins)

[GetCarter]

kVA said:

wonder if Sony will lend me one for a shoot?

I've had a fair amount of sucess getting freebies over the years. (Mostly in the music biz). Just make sure they know you and can check you are a pro.

[Simpo Two]

Otispunkmeyer said:

There are pro's and cons IMO. The EVF can display a lot more information, more clearly than the static displays in a Optical viewfinder. Want the histogram? no problem, want to change from a rule of 3rds grid to a finer grid or no grid? no problem. Want a preview of what the exposure will look like? peaking mode to see whats in focus (much more useful than the DoF preview), want to see what the scene looks like as a B&W? no problem!

Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's of any use:

Do I want to look at a histogram while holding a largeish camera up to my face and looking through a small hole? No, it is much better seen on the monitor.

Optical VFs have switchable grids too.

Preview of exposure - possibly - how accurate is it?

See what's in focus - after a while you can wing this from the aperture

Do I need to see what a scene looks like in black and white while holding a largeish camera up to my face and looking through a small hole? No thanks, I can imagine what BW looks like and will sort it out later.


This is how a subject that is essentially very simple (box, hole, lens) gets more and more complicated as people struggle to get their heads round all the strap-on extras, some of which are great, others invented to make the list longer.

That said, it may be that the camera is better for the OPs task, which is very specific. I guess he'll have to buy one and try it!