LEGAL Help: What are our rights with these photos we have??
Discussion
If a company of mine purchased some B&W prints for publication on the company website, what are our rights as regards publication of the photos ON the website?
The prints date back to the late 1800's to very early 1900's. How many subsequent prints were made I am not sure. I'm also not sure on the laws regarding the age of material, and when things enter the public domain. Doesnt it depend on whether living relatives exist?
I am sure we do not own "copyright" but what rights do we have, to publish scans made from the photos we purchased?
The photos/scans are not for sale. The site is commercial (think of it as a tourism type website) but the photos will be going on the site for the interest of the public, for the purpose of making the website's photo/history of the area more interesting, nothing more.
Any advice, speculation or legal views gratefully received!
The prints date back to the late 1800's to very early 1900's. How many subsequent prints were made I am not sure. I'm also not sure on the laws regarding the age of material, and when things enter the public domain. Doesnt it depend on whether living relatives exist?
I am sure we do not own "copyright" but what rights do we have, to publish scans made from the photos we purchased?
The photos/scans are not for sale. The site is commercial (think of it as a tourism type website) but the photos will be going on the site for the interest of the public, for the purpose of making the website's photo/history of the area more interesting, nothing more.
Any advice, speculation or legal views gratefully received!
Ledaig said:
Mobsta said:
I am sure we do not own "copyright" but what rights do we have, to publish scans made from the photos we purchased?
Who/where did you purchase the photo's?This information may well establish (or at least help to) the copyright ownership status.
We paid a substantial amount of money, negotiated a three figure discount if we paid cash, and walked out without a receipt before thinking. Ive known the seller (a collector of these things) for 15 years and should be able to get a receipt of some value, if that helps at all?
I had thought that Copyright existed until 70 years had passed and since I've got ten minutes spare a quick bit of digging confirms :
Photographs are classed as artistic works. Items 2 & 3 are key.
1211 Duration of copyright in literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works
(1) The following provisions have effect with respect to the duration of copyright in a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work.
(2) Copyright expires at the end of the period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the author dies, subject as follows.
(3) If the work is of unknown authorship, copyright expires -
(a) at the end of the period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was made, or
(b) if during that period the work is made available to the public, at the end of the period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which it is first so made available,
subject as follows.
(4) Subsection (2) applies if the identity of the author becomes known before the end of the period specified in paragraph (a) or (b) of subsection (3).
(5) For the purposes of subsection (3) making available to the public includes -
(a) in the case of a literary, dramatic or musical work -
(i) performance in public, or
(ii) communication to the public;
(b) in the case of an artistic work -
(i) exhibition in public,
(ii) a film including the work being shown in public, or
(iii) communication to the public;
but in determining generally for the purposes of that subsection whether a work has been made available to the public no account shall be taken of any unauthorised act.
(6) Where the country of origin of the work is not an EEA state and the author of the work is not a national of an EEA state, the duration of copyright is that to which the work is entitled in the country of origin, provided that does not exceed the period which would apply under subsections (2) to (5).
(7) If the work is computer-generated the above provisions do not apply and copyright expires at the end of the period of 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was made.
11 Revised s.12 substituted by SI 1995/3297.
27
(8) The provisions of this section are adapted as follows in relation to a work of joint authorship -
(a) the reference in subsection (2) to the death of the author shall be construed -
(i) if the identity of all the authors is known, as a reference to the death of the last of them to die, and
(ii) if the identity of one or more of the authors is known and the identity of one or more others is not, as a reference to the death of the last whose identity is known;
(b) the reference in subsection (4) to the identity of the author becoming known shall be construed as a reference to the identity of any of the authors becoming known;
(c) the reference in subsection (6) to the author not being a national of an EEA state shall be construed as a reference to none of the authors being a national of an EEA state.
(9) This section does not apply to Crown copyright or Parliamentary copyright (see sections 163 to 166D12) or to copyright which subsists by virtue of section 168 (copyright of certain international organisations).
Source - http://www.ipo.gov.uk/cdpact1988.pdf Page 27 to save you looking through.
BTW - this is not legal advice, just showing you where the source is.
Photographs are classed as artistic works. Items 2 & 3 are key.
1211 Duration of copyright in literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works
(1) The following provisions have effect with respect to the duration of copyright in a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work.
(2) Copyright expires at the end of the period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the author dies, subject as follows.
(3) If the work is of unknown authorship, copyright expires -
(a) at the end of the period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was made, or
(b) if during that period the work is made available to the public, at the end of the period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which it is first so made available,
subject as follows.
(4) Subsection (2) applies if the identity of the author becomes known before the end of the period specified in paragraph (a) or (b) of subsection (3).
(5) For the purposes of subsection (3) making available to the public includes -
(a) in the case of a literary, dramatic or musical work -
(i) performance in public, or
(ii) communication to the public;
(b) in the case of an artistic work -
(i) exhibition in public,
(ii) a film including the work being shown in public, or
(iii) communication to the public;
but in determining generally for the purposes of that subsection whether a work has been made available to the public no account shall be taken of any unauthorised act.
(6) Where the country of origin of the work is not an EEA state and the author of the work is not a national of an EEA state, the duration of copyright is that to which the work is entitled in the country of origin, provided that does not exceed the period which would apply under subsections (2) to (5).
(7) If the work is computer-generated the above provisions do not apply and copyright expires at the end of the period of 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was made.
11 Revised s.12 substituted by SI 1995/3297.
27
(8) The provisions of this section are adapted as follows in relation to a work of joint authorship -
(a) the reference in subsection (2) to the death of the author shall be construed -
(i) if the identity of all the authors is known, as a reference to the death of the last of them to die, and
(ii) if the identity of one or more of the authors is known and the identity of one or more others is not, as a reference to the death of the last whose identity is known;
(b) the reference in subsection (4) to the identity of the author becoming known shall be construed as a reference to the identity of any of the authors becoming known;
(c) the reference in subsection (6) to the author not being a national of an EEA state shall be construed as a reference to none of the authors being a national of an EEA state.
(9) This section does not apply to Crown copyright or Parliamentary copyright (see sections 163 to 166D12) or to copyright which subsists by virtue of section 168 (copyright of certain international organisations).
Source - http://www.ipo.gov.uk/cdpact1988.pdf Page 27 to save you looking through.
BTW - this is not legal advice, just showing you where the source is.
Simpo Two said:
Same thing isn't it?
Or did you buy the photos just to hang on a wall and now want to extend the use?
By print, I meat a copy made from the negative. We now own a bunch of old photos, not modern prints of old negatives. If Im stating the obvious I apologise! Or did you buy the photos just to hang on a wall and now want to extend the use?
crmcatee said:
I had thought that Copyright existed until 70 years had passed and since I've got ten minutes spare a quick bit of digging confirms :
Photographs are classed as artistic works. Items 2 & 3 are key.
1211 Duration of copyright in literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works
(1) The following provisions have effect with respect to the duration of copyright in a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work.
(2) Copyright expires at the end of the period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the author dies, subject as follows.
(3) If the work is of unknown authorship, copyright expires -
(a) at the end of the period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was made, or
(b) if during that period the work is made available to the public, at the end of the period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which it is first so made available,
subject as follows.
(4) Subsection (2) applies if the identity of the author becomes known before the end of the period specified in paragraph (a) or (b) of subsection (3).
(5) For the purposes of subsection (3) making available to the public includes -
(a) in the case of a literary, dramatic or musical work -
(i) performance in public, or
(ii) communication to the public;
(b) in the case of an artistic work -
(i) exhibition in public,
(ii) a film including the work being shown in public, or
(iii) communication to the public;
but in determining generally for the purposes of that subsection whether a work has been made available to the public no account shall be taken of any unauthorised act.
(6) Where the country of origin of the work is not an EEA state and the author of the work is not a national of an EEA state, the duration of copyright is that to which the work is entitled in the country of origin, provided that does not exceed the period which would apply under subsections (2) to (5).
(7) If the work is computer-generated the above provisions do not apply and copyright expires at the end of the period of 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was made.
11 Revised s.12 substituted by SI 1995/3297.
27
(8) The provisions of this section are adapted as follows in relation to a work of joint authorship -
(a) the reference in subsection (2) to the death of the author shall be construed -
(i) if the identity of all the authors is known, as a reference to the death of the last of them to die, and
(ii) if the identity of one or more of the authors is known and the identity of one or more others is not, as a reference to the death of the last whose identity is known;
(b) the reference in subsection (4) to the identity of the author becoming known shall be construed as a reference to the identity of any of the authors becoming known;
(c) the reference in subsection (6) to the author not being a national of an EEA state shall be construed as a reference to none of the authors being a national of an EEA state.
(9) This section does not apply to Crown copyright or Parliamentary copyright (see sections 163 to 166D12) or to copyright which subsists by virtue of section 168 (copyright of certain international organisations).
Source - http://www.ipo.gov.uk/cdpact1988.pdf Page 27 to save you looking through.
BTW - this is not legal advice, just showing you where the source is.
Excellent, thank you very much!Photographs are classed as artistic works. Items 2 & 3 are key.
1211 Duration of copyright in literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works
(1) The following provisions have effect with respect to the duration of copyright in a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work.
(2) Copyright expires at the end of the period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the author dies, subject as follows.
(3) If the work is of unknown authorship, copyright expires -
(a) at the end of the period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was made, or
(b) if during that period the work is made available to the public, at the end of the period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which it is first so made available,
subject as follows.
(4) Subsection (2) applies if the identity of the author becomes known before the end of the period specified in paragraph (a) or (b) of subsection (3).
(5) For the purposes of subsection (3) making available to the public includes -
(a) in the case of a literary, dramatic or musical work -
(i) performance in public, or
(ii) communication to the public;
(b) in the case of an artistic work -
(i) exhibition in public,
(ii) a film including the work being shown in public, or
(iii) communication to the public;
but in determining generally for the purposes of that subsection whether a work has been made available to the public no account shall be taken of any unauthorised act.
(6) Where the country of origin of the work is not an EEA state and the author of the work is not a national of an EEA state, the duration of copyright is that to which the work is entitled in the country of origin, provided that does not exceed the period which would apply under subsections (2) to (5).
(7) If the work is computer-generated the above provisions do not apply and copyright expires at the end of the period of 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was made.
11 Revised s.12 substituted by SI 1995/3297.
27
(8) The provisions of this section are adapted as follows in relation to a work of joint authorship -
(a) the reference in subsection (2) to the death of the author shall be construed -
(i) if the identity of all the authors is known, as a reference to the death of the last of them to die, and
(ii) if the identity of one or more of the authors is known and the identity of one or more others is not, as a reference to the death of the last whose identity is known;
(b) the reference in subsection (4) to the identity of the author becoming known shall be construed as a reference to the identity of any of the authors becoming known;
(c) the reference in subsection (6) to the author not being a national of an EEA state shall be construed as a reference to none of the authors being a national of an EEA state.
(9) This section does not apply to Crown copyright or Parliamentary copyright (see sections 163 to 166D12) or to copyright which subsists by virtue of section 168 (copyright of certain international organisations).
Source - http://www.ipo.gov.uk/cdpact1988.pdf Page 27 to save you looking through.
BTW - this is not legal advice, just showing you where the source is.
By the sounds of it, the copyright has expired, unless the photos were made available to the public many decades after the photographers death (but also before the 70th year of his death, renewing them for a further 70 years if I understand correctly) His son in turn was a photogapher, and some of the photos had a stamp on the back, with company information, indicating the photos were made public long ago. How long ago, we'll have to look into it, and the company information. Again, thanks for the excellent information above, 10/10!
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