2003/2004 SVT Cobra - Does anyone know its Nurburgring time?

[matth76]

Hi

Does anyone know the Nurburgring time for a 2003/2004 SVT Cobra (the one with the supercharger and 390+bhp)? Looked everywhere and can't find a resource for this car's data (or if it's ever been round the track).

Does anyone here have one? How do you find the gear shifting?

Thanks for any help and info.

[300bhp/ton]

matth76 said:

Hi

Does anyone know the Nurburgring time for a 2003/2004 SVT Cobra (the one with the supercharger and 390+bhp)? Looked everywhere and can't find a resource for this car's data (or if it's ever been round the track).

Don't think you are that likely to find a lap time for it. Ford never tested it there so the only ones you might find are private owners on open days. But these kind of lap times don't tell much due to track traffic and driver.

Having said that, I doubt it would be that fast on a track, it is comparitivly big and heavy and the IRS isn't the greatest and in stock trim isn't ideally configured.

Very fast in a stragith line and certainly a capable road car. A few mods and tweeks though and I'm sure it would be very good.

Despite its power and accelaration capability I can't see one topping a C5 Vette on a hot lap.

Have you been able to find any lap times for a s197 Mustang GT?

I know that when tested a stock LS1 Fbody lapped similar times, think it might have been a motor trend article or somthing. Not sure on the cirtuit used though.

matth76 said:

Does anyone here have one? How do you find the gear shifting?

Thanks for any help and info.

Afraid I don't have one, although would very much like one

Very rare in the UK, I've only ever seen 2 and one of those was owned my an American serviceman. I've also only seen one for sale (massivly over priced...)

you thinking of buying one?

[matth76]

Thanks for your info and reply. I am thinking of buying one but trying to find out as much info as possible first. The things I like about them is the looks (quite unique and very nice in person too ..I saw one in sonic blue in the States), and the strength of the handbuilt engine, being an iron block with forged internals it can reliably take (with fuel upgrades) well over 500bhp on stock internals and its stock compression. In fact Ford were modest with the factory quoted figure - it is on average 430bhp at the fly (very similar to the corvette C5 Z06 which was underquoted at 405bhp but had closer to 430bhp). The only let down is possibly the interior if anything at all. But then most cars are never perfect in the cabin in some way. It takes the same gearbox as that of the Viper and Corvette.

I thought that the IRS (independent rear suspension like that on most European and Jap cars etc) should keep it more planted to the ground which is why the stock model kept the solid rear axle and they chose the IRS for the Cobra to improve the handling and contact with the road (but I may be wrong in all of this). The main critism in reviews I've read of the later (S197) Mustangs is the solid rear axle which makes the rear very skittish over certain road conditions.

I've been told by an American car importer that the prices for an SVT Cobra 2003/2004 range from 17k ish so is quite a bargain considering the prices of a focus ST, golf GTI's are a lot more and they are much more common. Although I do like the look of the later Mustangs that have been modified slightly. Just need to find an extra £4.5k to get it supercharged though if I did get a later model. But then I have been told the later stock 4.6 Mustang engine will "only" reliably take up to 450bhp on a regular basis so has no where near the same tuning potential as a Cobra. So am in two minds about the Cobra or later mustang. The Cobra can take much more power but the later mustang does look stunning and I prefer the interior too.

Edited by matth76 on Tuesday 8th July 18:51

[LuS1fer]

Well it's true the SN95 Terminator, as it was known, was probably slightly under-rated but there are certain things you should know.

For one, the IRS was not that good and used the same mounting points as the live axle, so you can imagine that compromise was the name of the game. Many owners converted back to a live axle to drag race them. The later 2005-on Mustang is also a far better handling car as the chassis stiffness is equal to an SN95 shell with a rollcage fitted. If you're asking is the Terminator a better handling car than a live-axled S197, I'd say no. A well-located live axle is perfectly good for handling purposes as the 2005 Evo PCOTY proved when the Roush Mustang was placed 3rd in between the 350Z and M3 CS. The IRS Corvette C6 was placed 10th.

It is true that it has more tuning potential than the later S197 (2005-on) Mustang but the iron block is around 130lbs heavier than the all-alloy 4.6 so handling is always going to be worse. The question is how much power can you afford because a 2005 Mustang GT recently sold on ebay for £11600 (it's not always going to work that way though) and a very good 500hp supercharger like the Whipple is going to set you back about £4000 (but factor in uprated brakes and suspension unless you start with a Saleen or a Roush).

The Terminator is more complex than the 2005 with 4v cylinder heads instead of 3 and DOHC instead of SOHC.

They tested it against the Camaro SS in 2002 at Raceway Park. Now the SS is 10 inches longer but weighs 220lbs less than the Mustang's 3800lbs. They still found the Cobra handling neutral compared to the slight understeer on the SS. Around the 1.35 mikle course, the Mustang ran 1:26.25 and yet the SS with a claimed 325hp (most guess it's nearer the Vette's 345hp and on the dyno it was 60hp behind) was only 3/10ths of a second behind despite the Ford's better drive out on a wave of torque.

There is a convertibl 2003 Cobra for sale at the moment but I think you might have to import a Coupe. if so, don't forget to factor in 10% import duty and 17.5^% VAT on top.

[matth76]

Thanks for your info. I do the like the shape, look and overall appeal of the later 2005 onward Mustang. So is a live axle the same as a solid rear axle?

Are there any good tuning companies in the south or midlands UK for the 2005 onward Mustang with good websites?

Thanks again.

[LuS1fer]

matth76 said:

Thanks for your info. I do the like the shape, look and overall appeal of the later 2005 onward Mustang. So is a live axle the same as a solid rear axle?

Are there any good tuning companies in the south or midlands UK for the 2005 onward Mustang with good websites?

Thanks again.

Yes it is. I don't know the answer to the tuning question. You're better asking over on www.mocgb.net and they'll steer you to the appropriate information. There are a few lads on Rebel V8 who race Lightnings which use the same engine.

[300bhp/ton]

Technically a solid rear would mean no diff as would be found on thrings like off road trike (3 wheeled bikes).

A live rear is what most pony/muscle cars have. They can be made to handle quite well, although the sn95 was not known for its great handling.

So while the Cobra's IRS may not be the best I do feel you'd find it a benefit.

matth76 said:

Thanks for your info and reply. I am thinking of buying one but trying to find out as much info as possible first.

I would try here, loads of info and a great forum:

http://www.svtperformance.com/

matth76 said:

The things I like about them is the looks (quite unique and very nice in person too ..I saw one in sonic blue in the States),

IMO they are fantastic looking, and even in the UK will be much much rarer than the s197 (current shape) Mustang.

matth76 said:

and the strength of the handbuilt engine, being an iron block with forged internals it can reliably take (with fuel upgrades) well over 500bhp on stock internals and its stock compression.

The engine is very strong, many run over 600rwhp fine on it and as daily drivers. I even know of an example pushing over 1100rwhp on a stock motor.

A few bolt ons (CAI, catback, etc.) and a pulley change on the blower should see you near 550bhp no probs. If you want more than that then you need to look at replacing the Eaton Roots blower with a twin screw setup. Have a look at www.kennebell.net for more info on this.

matth76 said:

In fact Ford were modest with the factory quoted figure - it is on average 430bhp at the fly (very similar to the corvette C5 Z06 which was underquoted at 405bhp but had closer to 430bhp).

I would be pretty careful on this one. In the US most rolling roads are Dynojet inertia dyno's, even ignoring things such as correction factors and graph smoothing these dyno's tend to read high when compared to SAE Net readings. This leads to a belief in the US that every car is underpowered.

I will admit that as a rule a Terminator will make around 360rwhp even on an eddy current dyno. So that makes them around 400-410bhp SAE Net (flywheel). Still impressive.

Same goes for the C5 z06, the LS6 has been tested on an engine dyno, rahter than a chassis dyno and then guessed. It was making in the region of 409-412bhp SAE Net, so slightly underatted but not by much.

matth76 said:

The only let down is possibly the interior if anything at all. But then most cars are never perfect in the cabin in some way.

I quite like the interior, although I admit its no Jaguar in there. You can spruce the interior up though, plenty of places sell bits or urban trim.

matth76 said:

It takes the same gearbox as that of the Viper and Corvette.

Yep it has a T56 6 speeder.

matth76 said:

I thought that the IRS (independent rear suspension like that on most European and Jap cars etc) should keep it more planted to the ground which is why the stock model kept the solid rear axle and they chose the IRS for the Cobra to improve the handling and contact with the road (but I may be wrong in all of this). The main critism in reviews I've read of the Mustangs is the solid rear axle which makes the rear very skittish over certain road conditions.

As said the IRS adds weight, but I personally think it'll be fine. However to really make the most of it you might want to invest in some new performance parts such as shocks, springs and anti-roll bars (sway bars).

As was also said above you could swap back to a live axle, but I seriously wouldn't. If setup correctly the IRS actually works very well. I think for bigger HP numbers they tend to add a brace to stregthen it.

matth76 said:

I've been told by an American car importer that the prices for an SVT Cobra 2003/2004 range from 17k ish so is quite a bargain considering the prices of a focus ST, golf GTI's are a lot more and they are much more common.

These cars are holding their money very well and will likely continue to do so. More so than a regular GT of the newer shape.

I'd have a look at US prices so you can see what they are making, it might give you more bargining power or you could look at importing yourself.

matth76 said:

Although I do like the look of the later Mustangs that have been modified slightly. Just need to find an extra £4.5k to get it supercharged though if I did get a later model. But then I have been told the later stock 4.6 Mustang engine will "only" reliably take up to 450bhp on a regular basis so has no where near the same tuning potential as a Cobra. So am in two minds about the Cobra or later mustang. The Cobra can take much more power but the later mustang does look stunning and I prefer the interior too.

While I think the current s197 Mustang looks frigging awesome I do feel a 2003/4 Cobra looks better and more agressive. It's also a much much better performance platform.

If you want HP then go Cobra

Also the T56 is a rubust unit and all parts are proven and still easy to buy.






BTW - the 2003/4 Cobra is probably the only car I'd swap my Camaro for and I think my Camaro is ace, so it must say a lot about the Cobra

[matth76]

Thanks for all your replies and help guys. Thanks also for the pics. Looks like the radiator in the car second from last is a bit mis-aligned.

[300bhp/ton]

matth76 said:

Thanks for all your replies and help guys. Thanks also for the pics. Looks like the radiator in the car second from last is a bit mis-aligned.

I suspect its an after market intercooler, might even be a turbo conversion too.

[evolutionvalet]

For answers on the techinal side of things i.e performance upgrades, the best guy I have found is Danny over at Adrenaline race in Northants. Not far for Santa Pod.

http://www.adrenaline-race.com/workshop.html

He has worked on quite a few of the very quick Lightnings and F150 Harley trucks for guys over on www.rebel-v8.com. There are also a few Americans on Rebel who have very quick Stangs in the US too that could help.

Over on MOCGB there is a guy there that is selling a Cobra for around £16k I believe but he is in the US.....

Good luck as they are awesome cars and easily better to have than a Focus or Golf...LOL

Kev

Edited by evolutionvalet on Wednesday 9th July 11:54

[LuS1fer]

evolutionvalet said:

Over on MOCGB there is a guy there that is selling a Cobra for around £16k I believe but he is in the US.....

£15k. But after adding shipping, import duty and VAT, it works out expensive.