Zetec conversion
Discussion
Hi All - long-time lurker, first time poster in the Caterham section, so hello to all.
You guys seem like a nice bunch and I hope someone might find the time to provide some guidance or words of advice.
I have a Caterham (late 80's car) with a 1700 x-flow (dry sumped, 40 webbers, 234 cam) and four speed box. It is a well sorted car currently and a lot of fun, but the x-flow is a noisy lump and I am beginning to get raised eyebrows at trackdays. The engine is probably operating on borrowed time and a re-build is overdue.
Upgraditis has bitten and I plan a Zetec conversion. I plan to use the webbers, upgrade the cams, dry sump it and complete a bit of head work to get circa 200bhp. I will change the gearbox to a type 9 during this process.
I know this is probably one of the most popular Caterham upgrades, but it does seem like I am 8 years behind the rest and as such the information on the internet is a bit hit and miss. (Besides, no 2 Caterhams are the same!).
I have a mate (with all the prerequisite tools, equipment and skills) who will do the conversion, but are there any potential traps to avoid? Will the carbs still locate, does the drive shaft need changing, etc. Basically what have I not thought of or budgeted for?
My expectation is £2500 (£700 engine, £500 gearbox, £200 for new cams, rest for tuning and fitting)
Any advice hugely appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
You guys seem like a nice bunch and I hope someone might find the time to provide some guidance or words of advice.
I have a Caterham (late 80's car) with a 1700 x-flow (dry sumped, 40 webbers, 234 cam) and four speed box. It is a well sorted car currently and a lot of fun, but the x-flow is a noisy lump and I am beginning to get raised eyebrows at trackdays. The engine is probably operating on borrowed time and a re-build is overdue.
Upgraditis has bitten and I plan a Zetec conversion. I plan to use the webbers, upgrade the cams, dry sump it and complete a bit of head work to get circa 200bhp. I will change the gearbox to a type 9 during this process.
I know this is probably one of the most popular Caterham upgrades, but it does seem like I am 8 years behind the rest and as such the information on the internet is a bit hit and miss. (Besides, no 2 Caterhams are the same!).
I have a mate (with all the prerequisite tools, equipment and skills) who will do the conversion, but are there any potential traps to avoid? Will the carbs still locate, does the drive shaft need changing, etc. Basically what have I not thought of or budgeted for?
My expectation is £2500 (£700 engine, £500 gearbox, £200 for new cams, rest for tuning and fitting)
Any advice hugely appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
This was posted on Blatchat the other day. Might be of use if you haven't seen it already 
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ford-zetec-engine-brand-new-...
No links with seller, etc, etc. Good luck with the change, post some pics up as you go.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ford-zetec-engine-brand-new-...
No links with seller, etc, etc. Good luck with the change, post some pics up as you go.
Don't worry I'm 8 years behind too!!!
I have just changed from x/flow to Zetec out of necessity as my '93 x/flow let go at 73,000 miles (mind you I'd given it a hard life since it was rebuilt some 50,000 miles ago)and it seemed to make more sense to go 'Zetec'.
X/flow shouldn't be that noisy if you have a decent silencer. Lowest mine ever read was 95db. Never had any trouble at trackdays
I took the lazy route and bought a Raceline 190 spec engine with uprated cams already fitted mainly because I'm not very mechanically minded etc...
My 7 already had a type 9 5-speed box so no issue there. However your old engine mounts are no longer useful. I believe you'll need to buy some or get some made.
The Zetec lump mates with the bellhousing exactly the same as the x/flow did and the Webers stick out of the same cut-out on the bonnet as before. The exhaust hole will need enlarging as you'll probably need larger primaries.
My x/flow wasn't dry sumped (and that wasn't the reason for the engine failure) and the Zetec isn't either.
Webbers will need re-jetting and it's probably a good time to strip and rebuild them.
I think you'll need amongst other things new inlet manifold, new clutch, new sump, ECU, water rail, electric fuel pump, throttle pot and a good deal more odds and sods. Costs will mount up if you're not careful. I went for an ali bellhousing (4kg instead of 10kg for the cast iron one), lightened and balanced flywheel, replaced the old rad with an ali one and so on......
Mine was expensive as I bought a 'package' but the guys at Raceline have been extremely useful to me. No complaints here.
Propshaft and drive shafts unchanged. You might want to consider a LSD. I rebuilt my 7 a few years ago and at the time I sent the chassis back to Arch to add more strength to the diff mounts to 'future-proof' the chassis against increases in power. Now seems like a good decision. Maybe not 100% necessary though.
Hope that helps
I have just changed from x/flow to Zetec out of necessity as my '93 x/flow let go at 73,000 miles (mind you I'd given it a hard life since it was rebuilt some 50,000 miles ago)and it seemed to make more sense to go 'Zetec'.
X/flow shouldn't be that noisy if you have a decent silencer. Lowest mine ever read was 95db. Never had any trouble at trackdays
I took the lazy route and bought a Raceline 190 spec engine with uprated cams already fitted mainly because I'm not very mechanically minded etc...
My 7 already had a type 9 5-speed box so no issue there. However your old engine mounts are no longer useful. I believe you'll need to buy some or get some made.
The Zetec lump mates with the bellhousing exactly the same as the x/flow did and the Webers stick out of the same cut-out on the bonnet as before. The exhaust hole will need enlarging as you'll probably need larger primaries.
My x/flow wasn't dry sumped (and that wasn't the reason for the engine failure) and the Zetec isn't either.
Webbers will need re-jetting and it's probably a good time to strip and rebuild them.
I think you'll need amongst other things new inlet manifold, new clutch, new sump, ECU, water rail, electric fuel pump, throttle pot and a good deal more odds and sods. Costs will mount up if you're not careful. I went for an ali bellhousing (4kg instead of 10kg for the cast iron one), lightened and balanced flywheel, replaced the old rad with an ali one and so on......
Mine was expensive as I bought a 'package' but the guys at Raceline have been extremely useful to me. No complaints here.
Propshaft and drive shafts unchanged. You might want to consider a LSD. I rebuilt my 7 a few years ago and at the time I sent the chassis back to Arch to add more strength to the diff mounts to 'future-proof' the chassis against increases in power. Now seems like a good decision. Maybe not 100% necessary though.
Hope that helps
I've not done a conversion to zetec on a seven but I have done engine transplants in other cars and it is never as cheap as it seems.
A fellow sevener at the local club did this conversion last year and in the end he recons he spent £8 K, I cannot give you a break down but beware, do your home work well. Especially feature exhaust and manifold, ECU and rolling road (the recommended jetting was dangerously lean)
Cheers
Chris
A fellow sevener at the local club did this conversion last year and in the end he recons he spent £8 K, I cannot give you a break down but beware, do your home work well. Especially feature exhaust and manifold, ECU and rolling road (the recommended jetting was dangerously lean)
Cheers
Chris
I fitted a Raceline Zetec ( 200 bhp on TB's )into my Westfield. It originally had a 1800 zetec but I converted to a Black top Zetec. As aeroscreens said the lads at Raceline are genuine guys and Peter has an excellent knowledge of the Zetec. I can not recomend them enough.
They regular convert Caterhams from x flow to Zetec so give them a call and they can quote and supply all parts required.
Although mine was a Westy I still strongly recommend a Zetec.
Jeremy
They regular convert Caterhams from x flow to Zetec so give them a call and they can quote and supply all parts required.
Although mine was a Westy I still strongly recommend a Zetec.
Jeremy
Hi Mark. I was really pleased with the performance of my zetec and although only had for a short time, it never faultered. Renew engine oil on a regular basis and I can't see why they would give any problems.
It is worth considering buying a cheaper Caterham and converting to Zetec, if finances are tight. ( Sell the FIAT ) as the engine is a lot cheaper than a Duratec. There are a couple of lads on Blatchat who have done the conversion.
Hope this helps.
Jeremy
It is worth considering buying a cheaper Caterham and converting to Zetec, if finances are tight. ( Sell the FIAT ) as the engine is a lot cheaper than a Duratec. There are a couple of lads on Blatchat who have done the conversion.
Hope this helps.
Jeremy
Thanks all for the informative and useful replies.
Yesterday was a decent eye-opener with lengthy conversations with a few potential suppliers etc (not least Raceline).
It would appear that the level of complexity requires specialist assistance and an all in cost of (at least £5000) is to be expected. An expensive day out for an old x-flow!!! (But hopefully will be delivering somewhere near R400 performance!).
The car already has an LSD fitted (sorry should have mentioned this earlier!).
I am still keen, but have no experience of a Zetec powered Caterham. I am planning on tuning it to 200bhp (on carbs, head work complete, new cams and lightened flywheel). What I dont want to do is ruin the nice balance and respectable torque band of my (approx 150bhp) x-flow.
Any further thoughts?
Thanks again for the replies!
Yesterday was a decent eye-opener with lengthy conversations with a few potential suppliers etc (not least Raceline).
It would appear that the level of complexity requires specialist assistance and an all in cost of (at least £5000) is to be expected. An expensive day out for an old x-flow!!! (But hopefully will be delivering somewhere near R400 performance!).
The car already has an LSD fitted (sorry should have mentioned this earlier!).
I am still keen, but have no experience of a Zetec powered Caterham. I am planning on tuning it to 200bhp (on carbs, head work complete, new cams and lightened flywheel). What I dont want to do is ruin the nice balance and respectable torque band of my (approx 150bhp) x-flow.
Any further thoughts?
Thanks again for the replies!
Hi I sold the Westfield and now own a R300d. The westfield run on throttle bodies, which made it civil in traffic. The performance on road was plenty.
I have been on track with R400d and equal their power.
The 2.0 litre has plenty of torque and if you can afford it I would recomend throttle bodies.
Hope this helps.
Jeremy
I have been on track with R400d and equal their power.
The 2.0 litre has plenty of torque and if you can afford it I would recomend throttle bodies.
Hope this helps.
Jeremy
Thanks again Jeremy.
My intention is to use it on the track for 90% of its miles. It currently gets trailered to and from trackdays. As a result I am not overly concerned about the drivability in traffic - a set of nasty cams would be ideal, but as I understand it there is not enough room with the cam followers on the Zetec to get anything too crazy in there.
I am keen to run it on webbers (I have a set of 40's on my x-flow). I realise that 200bhp is at the upper limit of carb breathing Zetecs (especially 40's rather than 45's) but I like the character of them.
Still scratching my head. I have a trackday booked on Friday which I fear may do nothing for my desire for a considered approach to this!
My intention is to use it on the track for 90% of its miles. It currently gets trailered to and from trackdays. As a result I am not overly concerned about the drivability in traffic - a set of nasty cams would be ideal, but as I understand it there is not enough room with the cam followers on the Zetec to get anything too crazy in there.
I am keen to run it on webbers (I have a set of 40's on my x-flow). I realise that 200bhp is at the upper limit of carb breathing Zetecs (especially 40's rather than 45's) but I like the character of them.
Still scratching my head. I have a trackday booked on Friday which I fear may do nothing for my desire for a considered approach to this!
Jeremy,
The fiat is here to stay I'm afraid, she loves it. I don't mind it myself to be honest, a great wee town car.
I'm still casting my net high and wide with regards to finding a car, I have found one which ticks the boxes but I fear it's too expensive. Unless the fella comes down a touch.
Mark
The fiat is here to stay I'm afraid, she loves it. I don't mind it myself to be honest, a great wee town car.
I'm still casting my net high and wide with regards to finding a car, I have found one which ticks the boxes but I fear it's too expensive. Unless the fella comes down a touch.
Mark
This probably won't help, but had my x/flow not gone bang I would still have it and wouldn't be looking to change.
The reason was financial, because I had an 1800cc AX block I couldn't get replacement forged pistons at a reasonable cost (mine were 85.9mm from memory and Accralite wanted a minimum order of 12 at something like £110 + vat each)and by the time I factored in new con rods, camshaft, camshaft bearings, push rods and a few other odds and sods I reckon I was looking at spending a fair bit just to get the engine back to where it was. So I decided to split the old engine and sell for bits. Everything in front of the bellhousing was sold including primaries, steel rad, silencer. The only bits that weren't sold were the con rods (slight damage) and the Pacet fan. I even managed to find a buyer for the remaining 3 good pistons, 6 push rods and the clutch etc...
In total I reckon I got just over £2,000 for the old bits plus a few spares lying around in the garage. Add on the £500 refund of sprint entry fees, ebays sales for clearing out the garage and loft and so on.... I actually raised something like £4,000 towards the cost. So it was a no brainer for me to 'swap' to Zetec.
I've only driven it for 100 miles so far, limiting it to 4,000 revs, but I am very happy with it's performance and torque-iness. It will be interesting to see how much my sprint times may increase by.
There's no doubt I'll miss the characteristics of the x/flow, but I'm convinced I'll get a completely different and more responsive 7 to drive.
My 7 is mainly used on the road, especially touring abroad each year, but I also compete in 10-12 sprints each year so there has to be a compromise.
Raceline reckon on 190bhp on 45s and probably 180 on 40s.
The reason was financial, because I had an 1800cc AX block I couldn't get replacement forged pistons at a reasonable cost (mine were 85.9mm from memory and Accralite wanted a minimum order of 12 at something like £110 + vat each)and by the time I factored in new con rods, camshaft, camshaft bearings, push rods and a few other odds and sods I reckon I was looking at spending a fair bit just to get the engine back to where it was. So I decided to split the old engine and sell for bits. Everything in front of the bellhousing was sold including primaries, steel rad, silencer. The only bits that weren't sold were the con rods (slight damage) and the Pacet fan. I even managed to find a buyer for the remaining 3 good pistons, 6 push rods and the clutch etc...
In total I reckon I got just over £2,000 for the old bits plus a few spares lying around in the garage. Add on the £500 refund of sprint entry fees, ebays sales for clearing out the garage and loft and so on.... I actually raised something like £4,000 towards the cost. So it was a no brainer for me to 'swap' to Zetec.
I've only driven it for 100 miles so far, limiting it to 4,000 revs, but I am very happy with it's performance and torque-iness. It will be interesting to see how much my sprint times may increase by.
There's no doubt I'll miss the characteristics of the x/flow, but I'm convinced I'll get a completely different and more responsive 7 to drive.
My 7 is mainly used on the road, especially touring abroad each year, but I also compete in 10-12 sprints each year so there has to be a compromise.
Raceline reckon on 190bhp on 45s and probably 180 on 40s.
As has been said above the conversion cost will always end up higher than expected as the so called little things bump up the cost. I have a fair few friends who like me have zetecs in our kits and all that have swapped them in or built their cars have gone different routes: crate engines for £700 and a bit of homework and otherwise standard, through to raceline or other built engines. Power wise on carbs a good pal has 180 with a more /less standard lump, others with t/bodies and minor works are around the 200 and my own with race cams/tb's/dry sump etc is a shade over 230.
I'd certainly rec talking to Scholar up in suffolk depending what route you go new engine from a box or rebuilt/fettled. They took my blown zetec and used the existing cams, did some minor head work and then supplied it with tb's and the second hand dry sump system ( as they do/did alot of race series engines they had season old systems where regs had changed). The cost was rather 'kind', similarly they rebuilt a pals zetec - using what was left os his + all teh goodies that he is thrown by sponsors as a racer....dyno'd at 245 with less agressive cams.
would imagine that the quest for 200bhp is do'able with headwork and 45's, and understand that you like the look of them - personally having driven mine with carbs/tb's i'd have the tb's all day long. yes mine is mainly a road car with occasional t/d's, the response is very different and the fuel consumption massively different. Easy to average 30mpg with hard running, very hard blatting sees 25 - but the pick up is great.
Can't remember teh make of the flywheel that my pal bought ( or was given) it was like a spiders web, perfect for hima s a pure race car - weighed about 2.8kg. Cheap way of having a much lighter flywheel than standard is just to use the one from the 1.8 - which if i recall shaves it from 10kg down to 7?
things to look out for: standard alternators often die due to high revs, many of us now use the small denso type, can get cheapies for daihatsus etc. Starter motor needs to be coorectly sourced - amazing how many variations there are and how many don't quite line up right. exhaust will make a big diff torque/power wise - most of the kit cars that use zetecs are supplied with ones that arent really suited....4:2:1 is supposed to be best for torque - swapping my whole system gave me 12lb more tq and lost nothing out of the top end ( re-roaded at same place so no 'funny figures' ).
if you get stuck on matters other than how to fit into a c/ham then good resource will be locostbuilders.co.uk
am sure you'll love it once its been done!
I'd certainly rec talking to Scholar up in suffolk depending what route you go new engine from a box or rebuilt/fettled. They took my blown zetec and used the existing cams, did some minor head work and then supplied it with tb's and the second hand dry sump system ( as they do/did alot of race series engines they had season old systems where regs had changed). The cost was rather 'kind', similarly they rebuilt a pals zetec - using what was left os his + all teh goodies that he is thrown by sponsors as a racer....dyno'd at 245 with less agressive cams.
would imagine that the quest for 200bhp is do'able with headwork and 45's, and understand that you like the look of them - personally having driven mine with carbs/tb's i'd have the tb's all day long. yes mine is mainly a road car with occasional t/d's, the response is very different and the fuel consumption massively different. Easy to average 30mpg with hard running, very hard blatting sees 25 - but the pick up is great.
Can't remember teh make of the flywheel that my pal bought ( or was given) it was like a spiders web, perfect for hima s a pure race car - weighed about 2.8kg. Cheap way of having a much lighter flywheel than standard is just to use the one from the 1.8 - which if i recall shaves it from 10kg down to 7?
things to look out for: standard alternators often die due to high revs, many of us now use the small denso type, can get cheapies for daihatsus etc. Starter motor needs to be coorectly sourced - amazing how many variations there are and how many don't quite line up right. exhaust will make a big diff torque/power wise - most of the kit cars that use zetecs are supplied with ones that arent really suited....4:2:1 is supposed to be best for torque - swapping my whole system gave me 12lb more tq and lost nothing out of the top end ( re-roaded at same place so no 'funny figures' ).
if you get stuck on matters other than how to fit into a c/ham then good resource will be locostbuilders.co.uk
am sure you'll love it once its been done!
In December 2000 I bought a Crossflow car specifically to do a Zetec conversion. I drove the Crossflow around for a year whilst I collected all the necessary bits. The Crossflow already had 45mm Dellortos and 1.75" headers. Once I fitted the engine a local welder modified the exhaust to fit the Zetec engine. Price wise it didn't work out too bad but I did buy a lot of second hand bits and was able to do a lot of the work myself. If you have to pay someone else to do the work the price obviously goes up. I agree with one of the previous replies that it always costs more than you think. As the 7 is my hobby I make a point of not keeping any bills!
My Zetec made 190 bhp and was a great engine. Very docile at the bottom end and really took off if you nailed it. A real Jekyll and Hyde motor. Did lots of miles with it, trackdays and holidays. Fuel consumption was pretty good too. I have since fitted a Duratec which is also a fantastic engine but much more expensive to install. The Duratec does not mate up to the existing bellhousing whilst the Zetec does. If the Duratec had not come along I would still have the Zetec. Value for money, performance and reliability the Zetec cannot be beaten.
For all things Zetec Raceline are the people to speak to. They have all the parts and knowledge you will ever need.
My Zetec made 190 bhp and was a great engine. Very docile at the bottom end and really took off if you nailed it. A real Jekyll and Hyde motor. Did lots of miles with it, trackdays and holidays. Fuel consumption was pretty good too. I have since fitted a Duratec which is also a fantastic engine but much more expensive to install. The Duratec does not mate up to the existing bellhousing whilst the Zetec does. If the Duratec had not come along I would still have the Zetec. Value for money, performance and reliability the Zetec cannot be beaten.
For all things Zetec Raceline are the people to speak to. They have all the parts and knowledge you will ever need.
I can only echo all the above, did my conversion a few years back, kept it at the std 160bhp on 40's until last year and had the raceline guys sort my head and some cams to put it somewhere in 180-190 region, performance wise that is as far as I'm going, love carbs and that's plenty of poke for a little car IMHO!
Don't worry about dry sumping though, my car's done plenty of track work.
ETA I've just sold the block for my Crossflow for around 500 notes, well worth totting up what's in the garage as above!
Don't worry about dry sumping though, my car's done plenty of track work.
ETA I've just sold the block for my Crossflow for around 500 notes, well worth totting up what's in the garage as above!
Edited by JaseB on Monday 14th March 11:14
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