Oldschool 7's - the BDR

[Some Gump]

Hi forum,

I've always thought the K was the most "7-ish" of the powerplants on offer (XE, K, Duratec). However, the other day, I came accross this youtube vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9e-LNZKjDY

Now THAT is an awesome sound. Especially on the overrun! I then looked at the engine in more detail - 170 horse, so almost R300 power - nice!

So, does anyone have any experience of these BDR engined (supersports?) - looks like narrow track, de dion, "heavy" spec. Are these reliable? I think they're crossflow based, so I'm guessing heavier than a K, poss about XE weight?

I've always thought my next 7 would be a 1.8k, but that video has put doubt in my mind =)

[BertBert]

R300 power is 160, so 170 BDR is more than R300. They are quite fragile, but great engines. They are in 7s which are old school. Narrow track, live axle etc. Nothing wrong with that, just different.
Bert

[Some Gump]

Thanks Bert. You say they are "quite fragile" - do you know what services are needed to keep them bomb proof? Is it a case of regular "normal" work, or is it "refreshes" a la R500 K, costing several thousand every 7k miles?

[Steve-B]

Some Gump said:

...... is it "refreshes" a la R500 K, costing several thousand every 7k miles?

SG -- as proven, discussed everywhere the RUMOUR of rebuild frequency is not true. If you're (the royal you) such an idiot
to not let the engine warm, change oils, perform minor maintenance / checks than ANY engine will more than likely
have issues. Sure there's examples on ANY engine, but let's not continue to slag what for 99% of owners is an extremely
reliable engine.

Let's not let facts get in the way of a good thread...

[Some Gump]

Whoa! Have I said the wrong thing? I'm guessing you're implying that the R500K doesn't need those services? I'm only going off what my mate had done to his R500K - which would have been whatever Caterham / Minister told him was needed.

Sorry if it's touched a nerve.

SG

[BertBert]

I think Steve meant me!

As usual, the old "warm the oil, do the maintenance and it'll never go wrong" mantra wheeled out, claimed as "facts"

Bert

[Sam_68]

Some Gump said:

You say they are "quite fragile" - do you know what services are needed to keep them bomb proof? Is it a case of regular "normal" work, or is it "refreshes" a la R500 K, costing several thousand every 7k miles?

The short and honest answer is that they make the R500's K-series look like a Toyota engine.

Levels of tune of BDA/BDR type engines can vary considerably, but even for the 'lower' tuned engines, their overall longevity between rebuilds is nothing like as good as you'd expect of a modern unit (in common with other high performance, highly-tuned engines of the period, expect a rebuild 25-30K miles as a matter of routine and consider anything more as a bonus) and they are never absolutely bomb-proof (the only engine I've ever blown up was a BDA, and it went without warning, without undue abuse, and not many miles after a full rebuild be a reputable specialist).

Parts costs can be frighteningly expensive and it's complicated and sensitive enough to warrant going to one of the handful of specialists for rebuild and maintenance work.

BD-engined Caterhams are cheaper than you'd expect for such an exclusive, high-performance derivative for good reason.

[Steve-B]

Twas not a comment against anyone, it's like the rumour "step on a crack, break your Mum's back" kind of thing. There's been a bad stigma attached (not completely wrongly or rightly) to the K over the years. It's really like any other engine - in fact I'd say from what I know the Blackbird engine is far more frail, yet I know folks with them and they never go bad.

Getting a K warm does prove in higher Bhp's to make sure no starvation -- to properly lubricate....the right bits...

It's just my POV was if we're going to talk about bullet proof engines, or cast disparagingly against any engine lets do so for the right reasons...if that makes sense.

Having a high Bhp VPHD I've got 40,000 miles on the almost the same engine as the R500's (after my upgrades). There's folks who've seen DVA and gone in their K's to 245-250Bhp and have very reliable engines.

The shame is the very small number who've heard of someone who heard of someone has inadvertently cast a negative that isn't, if you take care of your toys...

That's all.......Happy Friday...hoping I can get out for a blat in W. Berks tomorrow!

Edited by Steve-B on Friday 10th December 16:21

[Dave J]

the R500 engine is very much a differnt beast to the SLR Steve.

The R500 if used at it full rev range will require far more frequent refreshes than an SLR engine.

Minister know how to charge and 7K rebuilds are not uncommon although outright failiers are rare these days.

Mate Greg just had a refresh after 8K (sort of 50/50 road and track ) and that totalled a stunning £8.4K

240 and 250 bhp K's fail quite regularly as would most older and K series sandwhich design engines running circa 125bhp/l N/A ?. My theory and experience is that its the revs that kill the K. Less than 8K and they seem quite happy, 8500rpm + and they move and flex quite a lot owing to the design and the rod and valve train stress is rather high.

Great engines tho, light, compact and revvy.

just my halfpenneth....

[elan_fan]

Not too sure about the K series as I've not long had mine and It's only supersport tune but going back to the OP question there is nothing wrong with a BDA in a normal state of tune at normal capacity. The standard BDA would be 1600 cc which means approx 83mm bore with 77 mm stroke well within the limits of the kent block of the time. The bottom of the BDA is all crossflow so no probs there for 100000 miles. No probs with the head as long as antifreeze is used and changed frequently. Now talking in period and from new, a reliable motor pushing out 140 HP. Now the 1700 BDR will still be reliable as 83.5 mm bore still no probs with the GT selected block and 100 HP/litre. 1800 will have 85 mm bore +60 thou and this is too much for the kent block, the poorly built engine in a high state of tune say 180+ HP will have a tendency to ingest water through a porous bore/failing bore/flexing deck and explode in some fine style. Hence the reputation of "I had my motor built by a specialist and it blew up" they are not usually standard when built by specialists. The other issue is price. A nice BD from a reputable builder will be £20000.

http://www.wilcoxengines.co.uk/bda_parts.htm

[BertBert]

Steve-B said:

The shame is the very small number who've heard of someone who heard of someone has inadvertently cast a negative that isn't, if you take care of your toys...

As I'm a bit of an argumentative old bugger... it seems to me that you are using the same logic that you rail against. Yes there have been lots of very reliable k's of all BHPs in caterhams, but similarly, loads and loads have gone tits-up. The k has it's reputation (and my wallet has big holes) for a reason and there's no empirical evidence that the ones that fail are the ones that are not warmed up before use and/or not maintained properly. But hey ho, we're way off topic now!

BErt

[Sam_68]

elan_fan said:

Hence the reputation of "I had my motor built by a specialist and it blew up" they are not usually standard when built by specialists.

Coincidentally, the specialist you linked to was the guy who built the engine I blew up.

Fortunately not mine; we're talking 20 years ago, and I seem to recall that the repair bill was £7K or £8K back then...

You're quite right, of course: they're only really fragile when they're in a high state of tune (though if you can get 100K out of a Crossflow bottom end, even if it's still got a standard Crossflow head bolted to the top, you're a better man than me), but what's the point of having a standard, 140bhp BDA/BDR. Might as well save your money and run a Crossflow or a K-series?

They are fabulous engines, mind you, so if you have the cash, why not?

Just that you shouldn't expect them to have the longevity of a modern 16 valve. Though the same applies to a Lotus Twin Cam or Ford Crossflow... engine design and manufacturing technology has come on quite a bit in the last 40 years.

[mickrick]

Aaaannnd.....Que Porn!

[elan_fan]

I'll take your BDA and raise you a HART 420R

[mickrick]

It's a BDG actually.
Nice Hart though.

[Some Gump]

Ooh, a BDG engined 7. now THAT must sound awesome!

Thanks for your replies all, and sorry if anyone thought I was "K bashing" - I love the K series, in all forms (ESP VHPD), but I'm a total sucker for overrun. What struck me was the strange low price of the BDR car on sale on PH at the moment - 13k with 170 horse, thats near R300 levels of performance (1k gets you the widetrack kit as for sale in the spare parts section) - power, noise, what more could you want? The answer appears to be that if you are to have a mishap, a broken BDR will cost a lot more than a broken modern engine.

Still, with F1 going to 4 pot screamers in 2013, maybe a "new BDR" is on its way eventually - in my easily excieted imagination, we will have a 350 horse detuned F1 engined 7 to look forward to in 2015. Hopfully, by then Caterham will have made a fuel guage that is at least within 30% accuracy, but I appreciate that progress is a slow thing these days =)

[BertBert]

I think the BDR here for sale looks excellent. The pics though make it look a bit skanky. Also with a cossie engine it should be billed as an HPC. It might be a bitsa. Nothing essentially wrong with that of course.

Be fun to own I reckon.

ETA: it must have been flared wings in 1988.

Bert

Edited by BertBert on Saturday 11th December 23:22

[mickrick]

22K for an alloy block BDG on throttle bodies.
Same price as a 90kg fully dressed Hartley H1. What would I do if I had the choice? Let me think......

[Steve-B]

Ahhh, nothing like Engine Pr0n on a Monday AM to make the heart go pitter patter

[Some Gump]

wow.

http://www.h1v8.com/page/page/4553414.htm

but, compared to the BDR? It's lacking overrun =)