First Caterham, £15k budget, advice please!!

[taustin]

Looking to buy a second car for the weekends, and maybe the odd track day / weekend away, sharing it with a friend and spending about £15k.

We are going to have a look at some Elises (111s / 111r) but we are also going to drive a few Caterhams. I hired a Roadsport 175 for 4 days back in April and absolutely loved it, just a shame the budget wont stretch to a Duratec! I have also done a Caterham Track day in an Academy car, and being 50 bhp down on the 175 didnt seem to hamper the experience around Mallory Park.

I wanted some advice, with the above in mind, about what Caterhams we should be looking at. Is it better to look at an older Superlight, or go for a Roadsport 125 / Ex-acedemy car. My main concern is that after a few blats i will be wanting more power, which leans me more towards an older car with a bit more poke. How easy / expensive is it to get a bit more power out of a 125 sigma / k-series?

Thanks in advance,

Tom

[Smollet]

The Sigma is limited in power potential with 160 atm seeming to be the max. The K series is far more adaptable and has greater potential than the Sigma.

[h4muf]

If you can find one,buy a s2000 engined westfield.

I don't think you'll be bored with that somehow.

[Incorrigible]

If you think you're going to upgrade don't get a Sigma engine

Unless you can stomach the upgrade costs to upgrade to a duratec

However k series upgrades, if severe, could be the same as the sigma-duratec upgrade

So.....

Drive all cars, do the sums, make choice

[thequietone]

With that budget I'd go older k-series as there is more chance of finding something with a few more goodies for your trackdays. Standard Superlight is a good place to start and as said above, the 'K' is easier to get more out of when the need for more power arises.

[Chris71]

Hi Tom,

Is there any particular reason you want a Ford powered example? For a relatively ordinary production car engine the K-Series is superb - very light for a car engine, quite torquey when placed in something the weight of a Seven (mine pulls 6th gear at 30mph!), superbly responsive, very tunable and still reliable in moderately powerful trim. There are plenty of people with 200+bhp K-Series (although admittedly you are talking about more money and shorter rebuild life once you get to those levels).

The thing you have to remember is that most Caterham don't weigh much more than 500kg. Even the featherweight Elise is a bit of a bloater in comparison; off the top of my head I think the S1 111S is about a quarter of a ton heavier than a Rover-era Superlight. Certainly when you factor in the extra exposure of a very open cabin and a side exit exhaust blaring out, a standard 1.6 Supersport at 138bhp feels substantially quicker than an Elise I'd say.

I looked at both and concluded the Elise would be marginally more suitable for regular or long distance road use, but that the Caterham would be easier and cheaper to maintain as well as providing an even more intense adrenaline hit. You've got the pick of any S1 Elise and virtually all of the non-R Rover-era Caterhams at £15k, so there's plenty to choose from with either. Mechanical support and the owners 'scene' is very good with either.

Good luck!

Coincidentally, for £15k I'd get an early 'noughties Caterham Superlight and start booking some track days.

Don't discount ex-racers either, particularly if you want a track day toy. Mine (just sold) was basically Superlight spec mechanically - barring the fragile carbon bits - for £5k less. Spending £15k on an ex-racer would get you something with R400 or even R500 levels of performance I suspect.

[pikeyboy]

15 grand buys you a very nice caterham fireblade that was/is in the classifieds. Not mine, but I am biased as do I have one. They are a very sweet handling thing better than r300 power to weight and no k series engine issues. However the nature of them is'nt to everyones taste.

[Chris71]

pikeyboy said:

No k series engine issues.

Are there any real issues with the lower powered K-Series though? If you're looking for Elise performance a standard Supersport will be more than adequate and mine never missed a beat. I'm told a much shorter cooling circuit than the Elise greatly helps the differential cooling issues that cause some of them to pop head gaskets and many will be running uprated dowels and gaskets. I've only personally heard of one going in a Caterham - a car I considered buying - and that was an engine running nearly 200bhp in a less-than-ideal state of maintenance.

While we're on engines, do bear noise levels in mind if you're planning to do track days. A standard K-Series will pass the test on just about any day, but once you get into big throttle bodies and competition exhausts there's a far greater chance you'll have issues.

[taustin]

Thanks for all the advice, really useful.

I am glad to hear the K-seires with moderate power output is reliable in a Caterham. Seems to be a lot of bad press in Elise forums about head gaskets, but i get the impression that it isnt as big an issue as everyone makes out.

How realistic is it to take a Caterham into Europe without a tow vehicle? I know that a few mad Caterham owners strap all sorts of bags to the back of their 7 for a week in the south of France, but is it a pleasant experience? Would like the odd European jaunt, or trip up to Scotland (300 miles for me) how livable is it for the odd long haul trip?

Car will mainly be used for the odd track day and B roads in the local area, but feedback would be welcome.

Also, will be sharing the car with a mate, both of us c. 6"2, and 14 stones. Only ever been in an SV before which was fine, is a non SV body going to be a bit on the tight side?

I know most of these questions can be answered by a few test drives, but dont have oodles of spare time, so anything to narrow the search would be great!!

Cheers

[jleroux]

taustin said:

How realistic is it to take a Caterham into Europe without a tow vehicle?

Jonny's top tip: Don't drive all the way to Magny-Cours in a roofless, screenless Superlight, then rip the sump off the engine as you pull into the car park at the Holiday Inn Magny-Cours [+]

Jonny
BaT

[pikeyboy]

taustin said:

Also, will be sharing the car with a mate, both of us c. 6"2, and 14 stones. Only ever been in an SV before which was fine, is a non SV body going to be a bit on the tight side?


Cheers

If your not best mastes before you go you will be when you get back

[Chris71]

taustin said:

How realistic is it to take a Caterham into Europe without a tow vehicle? I know that a few mad Caterham owners strap all sorts of bags to the back of their 7 for a week in the south of France, but is it a pleasant experience? Would like the odd European jaunt, or trip up to Scotland (300 miles for me) how livable is it for the odd long haul trip?

There are people who do it. Quite a few of them, and even some who ue their Sevens as daily drivers.

They're clearly masochists, however. Driving a Caterham a long way across country is loud, cramped, potentially rather damp and not especially comfortable. For a couple of hours on a sunny Sunday afternoon you can't beat them, but for long distance touring I'd say they were comparable to a motorcycle. An Elise would be slightly better in this respect, but neither are Rolls Royce-like (and the Caterham may even have more luggage capacity left over once you have a passenger to accomodate) so you have to think how often you'd do it. A touch of masochism could make it more of an adventure if if it's once a year to Le Mans. If it's a couple of times a month with luggage and a passenger who doesn't like the effect it has on her hair then you could rapidly find yourself abandoning the Caterham and taking your daily driver more often than not. I speak from bitter personal experience.

[taustin]

Any caterham specific driving days or companies that organise european trips? Just want to try and get the most out of the new toy!!

[Scotty996T]

We've run both a K series supersport (currently for sale at Caterham Mids) and a new sigma 125 for road hire. Both have fantastic responses from customers BUT for track use I'd think superlight - best of luck

[Atomic Gibbon]

From what you've said over several posts...

Sounds like you want a k series engined roadsport. Options that would be very much on the wish list:
13's
wide track front end
bigger brakes

Why roadsport and not superlight? The superlight is the one everyone wants. If you go SL, you need to add heater, weather gear, leather seats (tillets are great till it gets cold), but you;ll have the mighty 6 speed box.

If you go roadsport, you need to find one thats wide at the front (a lot of them are), but you;ll have the road bits on. And importantly, the 5 speed.

Now, if you've lurked here for a while, you;d spot that i am the bloke with the absoloute fetish for the 6 speed box. Having played with 5, 6, and sequential, I'd take the 6 every day. BUT you have said you want to tour. 6th in the 6 speed is the same as 4th in the 5 speed - so with your touring in mind, I'd say the 5 speed is what you want.

I recently did a track day in a 5 speed car, it's not quite as good (as the 6), but still awesome. Since you're not competing, the effect of fibreglass over carbon bits won't hurt too much, and if you;re that bothered, just take off the windscreeen - the screen makes a much bigger difference than 25kgs would!

Engines wise, I'd say K is a great bet. I've had the pleasure of a few from 1.4 120 horse k, 135 superight, 165 r300, Superlight R 190, and an R500 (but only for a day =( ). IMO, 135 horse is enough to have fun in a 7.165 is bliss. Anything more is really great, but becomes less "touring friendly" - more aggressive cams / roller barrels etc start to get lumpy in parts. The VVC (160) is a reat engine, as fitted to the elise, and most of the hot MG stuff. If you could find a roadsport with one of those, wide track I think it'd be perfect.

[Smollet]

taustin said:

Thanks for all the advice, really useful.
Also, will be sharing the car with a mate, both of us c. 6"2, and 14 stones. Only ever been in an SV before which was fine, is a non SV body going to be a bit on the tight side?
Cheers

I have an SV and with a mate of mine who is nearly as porky as me (6'2" and 17st) it was no big deal however as mentioned above in an S3 size would be an issue and compromise your driving.

[cambuscat]

Atomic Gibbon mentions wide track front several times but from a number of postings in BC any difference in cornering or feel is very marginal, if at all, even on sprints or hill climbs. Looks slightly better but wouldn't get hung up about a car that didn't have it and like anything on a 7 could get upgraded at a later date if you wished.

David

[cambuscat]

Atomic Gibbon mentions wide track front several times but from a number of postings in BC any difference in cornering or feel is very marginal, if at all, even on sprints or hill climbs. Looks slightly better but wouldn't get hung up about a car that didn't have it and like anything on a 7 could get upgraded at a later date if you wished.

David

[jleroux]

cambuscat said:

Atomic Gibbon mentions wide track front several times but from a number of postings in BC any difference in cornering or feel is very marginal, if at all, even on sprints or hill climbs.

I would propose to the jury that the owners in question couldn't drive a soapy stick up a horses arse in that case. Widetrack is significantly better than narrow track suspension, especially on-track.

Jonny
BaT

[ewenm]

taustin said:

Any caterham specific driving days or companies that organise european trips? Just want to try and get the most out of the new toy!!

Great bunch of people on the Tour7 email list. Not a company but a group of 7ers (any LSIS, not just Caterhams) who organise a couple of tours a year (usually one UK/Eire and one Euro).