Discussion
Hi do any of you guys have a xflow or a vauxhall, I have deided to go for it and obtain my first caterham. I have a max of 8k and ideally slightly less to spend. This seems to put me in the Xflow / Vauxhall classic area. Which Is guess is as good a place any to start caterham ownership.
So any views on which is the better one to go for ? do they have similar reliability and upgradeability ?
Any views appreciated.
Cheers
K
PS I have seen Blatchat but thought id post on here as its my normal hangout.
So any views on which is the better one to go for ? do they have similar reliability and upgradeability ?
Any views appreciated.
Cheers
K
PS I have seen Blatchat but thought id post on here as its my normal hangout.
IMHO both will do you as a first Caterham. Forget the upgrade path - this is your first car - buy it, learn to drive it and sell it on to another first timer.
Then buy the spec you want, or a car that has the basics to enable you to upgrade.
Spec wise, just make sure it has a 5 speed 'box and crossflow-wise, the 1700 is the best bet for resale, as is a non "Q" registered car.
Finally, if you do hunt around you can find 1400 Supersport 5 speeds for this money and the occasional high mileage 1400 SS 6 speeder too for between £8k & £9k.
Just make sure you do not pay over the going rate for the spec of car you are buying. A £10k crossflow can be difficult to sell as it is then encroaching on K Series territory.
Then buy the spec you want, or a car that has the basics to enable you to upgrade.
Spec wise, just make sure it has a 5 speed 'box and crossflow-wise, the 1700 is the best bet for resale, as is a non "Q" registered car.
Finally, if you do hunt around you can find 1400 Supersport 5 speeds for this money and the occasional high mileage 1400 SS 6 speeder too for between £8k & £9k.
Just make sure you do not pay over the going rate for the spec of car you are buying. A £10k crossflow can be difficult to sell as it is then encroaching on K Series territory.
Yes I guess it makes sense to put any upgrade money aside and just get a better model later on.
My main concerns at the moment are how much to pay as prices seem to vary alot, and naturally I am concerned about over paying.
I saw the following last night 1996 CLASSIC LIVE AXLE. 5 SPEED.1600 WITH TWIN WEBBERS .FIA ROLL BAR. BATTERY KILL SWITCH.FULL WEATHER GEAR.4 POINT HARNESSES.PURCHASED FROM CATERHAM IN 2000.SERVICE HISTORY.TAXED & MOT. 25000miles for about 7.5k.
Is this a reasonable price for a xflow ? it is also on a Q plate but did look well look after.
Cheers
My main concerns at the moment are how much to pay as prices seem to vary alot, and naturally I am concerned about over paying.
I saw the following last night 1996 CLASSIC LIVE AXLE. 5 SPEED.1600 WITH TWIN WEBBERS .FIA ROLL BAR. BATTERY KILL SWITCH.FULL WEATHER GEAR.4 POINT HARNESSES.PURCHASED FROM CATERHAM IN 2000.SERVICE HISTORY.TAXED & MOT. 25000miles for about 7.5k.
Is this a reasonable price for a xflow ? it is also on a Q plate but did look well look after.
Cheers
Is it a crossflow or VX? ISTR Caterham made the classic with a VX engine that year...Plus, being 1600 CC and that late I'd say it as unlikely to be a 1600 crossflow.
The ad doesn't say whether it's been raced or not either. Unusual that it's on a Q too - most mid '90s on cars are usually on "proper" plates.
Cheapest VX I've seen recently was an ex racecar for circa £6,500.
Having said all that, I'd say price is OK and you shouldn't lose too much, if anything at all on it.
Best drive one first to make sure you're happy with the driving feel - they are so different in all respects to a standard car and no way you'll get comfortable on a short test drive either.
The ad doesn't say whether it's been raced or not either. Unusual that it's on a Q too - most mid '90s on cars are usually on "proper" plates.
Cheapest VX I've seen recently was an ex racecar for circa £6,500.
Having said all that, I'd say price is OK and you shouldn't lose too much, if anything at all on it.
Best drive one first to make sure you're happy with the driving feel - they are so different in all respects to a standard car and no way you'll get comfortable on a short test drive either.
I have a '89 1800 X/flow and it is a great car. It was raced by the previous owner, but came with loads of history - it is virtually a new car with all the work that has been done on it!
For your budget, you may find that you are a bit restricted, and (ducks for cover...) will be looking at cars with clamshell wings as opposed to cycle wings. Not that this is a problem, it's all to do with the aesthetics.
There are usually some Caterhams on www.findit.co.uk as well as the obvious Blatchat. If you post on the Wanted page, you'll have a good response.
As has been said, try a few for size, remember a good Q plate, may have been looked after better than a 'normal'plate, esp. if it is one owner - pride and joy etc.
My brother-in-law has a VX, and it feels heavier in comparison, although it is also a v. powerful car.
Hope you find one in time for the good weather.
For your budget, you may find that you are a bit restricted, and (ducks for cover...) will be looking at cars with clamshell wings as opposed to cycle wings. Not that this is a problem, it's all to do with the aesthetics.
There are usually some Caterhams on www.findit.co.uk as well as the obvious Blatchat. If you post on the Wanted page, you'll have a good response.
As has been said, try a few for size, remember a good Q plate, may have been looked after better than a 'normal'plate, esp. if it is one owner - pride and joy etc.
My brother-in-law has a VX, and it feels heavier in comparison, although it is also a v. powerful car.
Hope you find one in time for the good weather.
Hi yes the one I saw last night was a xflow, its never been raced and has been serviced by caterham.
Interesting point re the plate the guy said its only beacuse caterham couldnt source new x/flow engines at that point in time so had to use recons.
I shall post a wanted ad on blatchat.
Cheers
Interesting point re the plate the guy said its only beacuse caterham couldnt source new x/flow engines at that point in time so had to use recons.
I shall post a wanted ad on blatchat.
Cheers
Crossflow engines could be bought new from South Africa until 1999.
I'm surprised the car you looked at doesn't have a 1700 engine - the natural choice for a secondhand/rebuilt engine.
I had no problem in finding cars to look at this summer with cycle wings for less than £10k. Into double figures on 1400 SS 5 speeds (cheapest at £7500, most expensive at a very optimistic £14k!!!), 1 1400 SS 6 speed for £8600, a positive plethora of crossflows & VXs for sub £10k, including 1 1600 4 speed for £5k, 1 1700 5 speed for £6500 and shedloads for £8k up and several 1600 Ks (including Woodster's 5 speed Supersport) for the £10k mark.
I'm surprised the car you looked at doesn't have a 1700 engine - the natural choice for a secondhand/rebuilt engine.
I had no problem in finding cars to look at this summer with cycle wings for less than £10k. Into double figures on 1400 SS 5 speeds (cheapest at £7500, most expensive at a very optimistic £14k!!!), 1 1400 SS 6 speed for £8600, a positive plethora of crossflows & VXs for sub £10k, including 1 1600 4 speed for £5k, 1 1700 5 speed for £6500 and shedloads for £8k up and several 1600 Ks (including Woodster's 5 speed Supersport) for the £10k mark.
Ours is a '93 1700 x-flow, with a De-Dion axle rather than the old type live one, and it's been very reliable. No doubt you've read plenty on the different axle/suspension set ups, it boils down to what feel good to you.
You probably also know about the low but definitely existing possibility of head gasket troubles in the vx K series engine, but it is worth bearing in mind. Also, it ain't hard to find quite low mileage cars because of the kind of car they are.
Finally, there's the engine sound...just to remind you, nothing sounds quite like a x-flow. Clattery mini tractor at tick over, big-hearted, exhuberant roar on take-off
-inducing at all times. (Completely unbiased opinion, of course! 
)
You probably also know about the low but definitely existing possibility of head gasket troubles in the vx K series engine, but it is worth bearing in mind. Also, it ain't hard to find quite low mileage cars because of the kind of car they are.
Finally, there's the engine sound...just to remind you, nothing sounds quite like a x-flow. Clattery mini tractor at tick over, big-hearted, exhuberant roar on take-off
-inducing at all times. (Completely unbiased opinion, of course! )
I've had a 1600VX for the last 18 months and have been very pleased with it. Bullet proof engine, no upgrade path and worth more if you keep the engine sealed.
If you want to modify go for the Xflow.
Not sure what your intended use is and that makes a big difference to advise. I would say though that there is a lot more performance improvement to be had by spending some time on the track rather than chasing bhp with a big wallet.
I'd also seriously consider ex race cars ( I race in the Caterham Graduates)You would be amazed how much most drivers spend make suring their car is running and handling at 100%
If you want to modify go for the Xflow.
Not sure what your intended use is and that makes a big difference to advise. I would say though that there is a lot more performance improvement to be had by spending some time on the track rather than chasing bhp with a big wallet.
I'd also seriously consider ex race cars ( I race in the Caterham Graduates)You would be amazed how much most drivers spend make suring their car is running and handling at 100%
The main use for the car will be weekends a few track days and longer term I will look into the possibility of racing.
Thanks for the price examples that was very helpfull. I am going off the upgrade path, as I do agree its better to sell it to another caterham virgin and use the upgrade money to buy a better model. It keeps the car saleable and should minimise loosing much or any money on it. I shall let you know how it goes.
Buying an ex racer did scare me but im coming around to that idea now, they are a bit cheaper and are probably looked after better than the road car equivalent.
Thanks for the price examples that was very helpfull. I am going off the upgrade path, as I do agree its better to sell it to another caterham virgin and use the upgrade money to buy a better model. It keeps the car saleable and should minimise loosing much or any money on it. I shall let you know how it goes.
Buying an ex racer did scare me but im coming around to that idea now, they are a bit cheaper and are probably looked after better than the road car equivalent.
Buying an ex racer will limit your resale path. Some can be totally unsuitable for road use too - stiffer springs, camber settings making them twitchy, bag tanks, lightweight wiring loom are also things to watch out for.
Ex Academy cars will be OK - have to be road spec and MOTd and the cars from the last couple of years are good spec - 115bhp K Roadsports with 5 speeds & De Dion...an ideal upgrade path as it happens - 160 bhp can be had from these engines with cams, porting and advice from Dave Andrews - for a cost of circa £2k.
Also watch out for cars that are not what they used to be. For example a number of 1.4 Ks no have VVC engines in them - nothing wrong with this per se, but did the VVC come from a trashed MGF? in which case its head gasket could be partially cooked. Does the immobiliser work (they have to match the ECU) etc etc
Ex Academy cars will be OK - have to be road spec and MOTd and the cars from the last couple of years are good spec - 115bhp K Roadsports with 5 speeds & De Dion...an ideal upgrade path as it happens - 160 bhp can be had from these engines with cams, porting and advice from Dave Andrews - for a cost of circa £2k.
Also watch out for cars that are not what they used to be. For example a number of 1.4 Ks no have VVC engines in them - nothing wrong with this per se, but did the VVC come from a trashed MGF? in which case its head gasket could be partially cooked. Does the immobiliser work (they have to match the ECU) etc etc
KPM,
Good luck hunting. Based on budget and your last comments I'd go for the 1600VX. Ideally you want an ex academy car( better handling than std classic) and make sure the seals are intact-engine and timing belt.
Stick with fairly hard tyres-Avon CR322's or similar which are better fun,won't put quite so much strain on the diff and will last a bit longer.
You should be able to do track days without any mods-if you find more money and get a K make sure you have an anti cav tank
Good luck hunting. Based on budget and your last comments I'd go for the 1600VX. Ideally you want an ex academy car( better handling than std classic) and make sure the seals are intact-engine and timing belt.
Stick with fairly hard tyres-Avon CR322's or similar which are better fun,won't put quite so much strain on the diff and will last a bit longer.
You should be able to do track days without any mods-if you find more money and get a K make sure you have an anti cav tank
mikeww said:
KPM,
Ideally you want an ex academy car( better handling than std classic) and make sure the seals are intact-engine and timing belt.
Do you know what the differences are regarding the handling between the classic and an ex academy car ?
Forgive me if not being too sharp but how can you check that the seals are intact regarding the engine and timing belt.
Thanks
K
kpm said:They're standard supersport 1600s, they do run rock hard tyres though so the drive train and suspension won't be under as much pressure as they would with track day/race tyres
Do you know what the differences are regarding the handling between the classic and an ex academy car ?
Better make it clear that the ex academy cars being talked about earlier are the VX 1600s that pre-dated the K series cars in that series.
Those that Incorrigible and Mechsympathy refer to are the later Academy cars, which currently are specced as 115bhp K Series cars - i.e. Roadsports, not Supersports. The latter push out 135 bhp and are eligible for (one of or both of?) the Graduates class.
Are the Academy entrants really allowed to run adjustable platforms????
Also worth pointing out that the K Academy cars are all de dion, whereas the VX are live axle.
I'm not sure that there's much trade-off between the wear and tear sustained on a race track versus the less grippy list 1A tyres that Academy competitors are obliged to use!
Those that Incorrigible and Mechsympathy refer to are the later Academy cars, which currently are specced as 115bhp K Series cars - i.e. Roadsports, not Supersports. The latter push out 135 bhp and are eligible for (one of or both of?) the Graduates class.
Are the Academy entrants really allowed to run adjustable platforms????
Also worth pointing out that the K Academy cars are all de dion, whereas the VX are live axle.
I'm not sure that there's much trade-off between the wear and tear sustained on a race track versus the less grippy list 1A tyres that Academy competitors are obliged to use!
Sorry, to try and clarify a few things
I was talking about the 1600VX when referring to ex academy( or scholarship as I think it was)versus the standard classic.Last year they were run from new was 2000 after which they switched to the K.
The difference in handling is principally associated with the front suspension-the ex-academy cars incorporate a front interchangeable ARB-the classic doesn't have this option. End result is the classic is a bit soft on the front end when cornering hard( fine for the road though)
With regard to tyres my comment applies principally to the track where the 322's give a good balance between handling and not putting excessive strain on the diff. If you want to run stickier tyres on the road it should be no problem. Personally I think there is a lot off duff info about tyres and not enough about the importance of learning to drive the car properly.
With regard to the seals. There is a wire with a metal seal on it that is at the front offside corner of the engine between the cylinder head and the block. There is also one on the black plastic timing belt cover which is very similar.
Don't worry about adjustable platforms. They are an easy add on and in reality you can get away with them on the front of the car and get the dampers machined to allow the springs to be in the right place at the back. In any case you would need a flat floor set up at sometime to suit your weight.
Hope the above helps
>> Edited by mikeww on Tuesday 30th March 21:54
I was talking about the 1600VX when referring to ex academy( or scholarship as I think it was)versus the standard classic.Last year they were run from new was 2000 after which they switched to the K.
The difference in handling is principally associated with the front suspension-the ex-academy cars incorporate a front interchangeable ARB-the classic doesn't have this option. End result is the classic is a bit soft on the front end when cornering hard( fine for the road though)
With regard to tyres my comment applies principally to the track where the 322's give a good balance between handling and not putting excessive strain on the diff. If you want to run stickier tyres on the road it should be no problem. Personally I think there is a lot off duff info about tyres and not enough about the importance of learning to drive the car properly.
With regard to the seals. There is a wire with a metal seal on it that is at the front offside corner of the engine between the cylinder head and the block. There is also one on the black plastic timing belt cover which is very similar.
Don't worry about adjustable platforms. They are an easy add on and in reality you can get away with them on the front of the car and get the dampers machined to allow the springs to be in the right place at the back. In any case you would need a flat floor set up at sometime to suit your weight.
Hope the above helps
>> Edited by mikeww on Tuesday 30th March 21:54
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