Selling a Monaro, buying a Caterham

[Mr Red Barron]

Hey guys,

I currently have a Monaro VXR as my second car (used to be my daily driver until I moved in with the missus) and am seriously condsidering buying a second hand caterham to replace it. I'm hoping to get 15k for my car and would be looking to spend 10-11k on the Caterham. I've had a look at all the other alternatives (westfield, tiger etc) and nothing else does it for me. I've driven a Caterham twice now, once at the Palmersport day up in Bedfordshire (loved it!!) and once at a track day in Abingdon. I just love the way the car feels. Anyway, for the money i'm looking to spend, what would you recommend I look for? I'd mainly use it for weekend trips out, the occasional drive to work, maybe 1 or 2 trackdays a year and the odd long trip home to Wales for a week. Whats it like to live with? servicing etc? Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Edited to add: This has caught my eye http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1659235.htm

Edited by Mr Red Barron on Monday 10th May 13:39

[Chris71]

Good call. They make a superb second car and it's a much more full on experience than a Monaro if you're looking at 'weekends and evenings'.

How important is the track side of things? There are a couple of reasons I ask. Fristly, ex-race/track cars can be had to quite a high spec for not a lot of money. The sort of budget you're talking about could get you a 1999/2000 sort of era Roadsport A with goodies like a close ratio 6-speed 'box, the higher spec Supersport 1600 K-Series, limited slip diff, big brakes etc. The downside is many are sporting the 'lived in look' with spartan interiors and often no weather gear.

Secondly, noise limits are a real issue at UK circuits these days and if that's important then a fuel-injected K-Series running the standard intake plenum is the way to go. It still produces a nice noise for a four cylinder, but not enough of it to trouble the noise meters!

When I was looking last year I found you had four basic options engine-wise. An older crossflow engined car (this would have to be very exotic to command more than about £10k), a Vauxhall 8V car (not hugely popular but slightly newer), a Vauxhall 16v car (potential for big power and very torquey, but noisy and said to be a little nose heavy, up to about £13k depending on spec), or a K-Series car (start at about £10k for something decent but utiliterian like my ex-racer and the sky's the limit).

Condition is hugely important and unless there is a specific purpose you want to use the car for I'd try and find something with plenty of reciepts and a rust-free chassis.

If you're looking for something nicely trimmed for road work then £10 or £11k is still low-ish for a K-Series car. I'd be tempted to look for a really nice example of the larger Vauxhall engine. If you do go for the K-Series route I'd recommend the 5-speed 'box if you want to go touring or the 6-speeder if you want to go blatting round the B-roads.

Sorry, excuse the waffle, hope it's actually some use. The car you linked to looks like quite a high spec for a crossflow car and fairly basic money - Caterhams seem to start at about £8k. Make sure the chassis is sound, but looks promising. Not sure how highly stressed a crossflow is at 160bhp though? I know they can go up to over 200 in full race trim, but 100bhp/litre strikes me as quite a lot for a road car engine of that era. Also bear in mind that 'uprated' springs could be pretty hardcore. I've replcaed the racing setup on mine for standard Caterham road springs and dampers after I found I spent a lot of my time on the bumpy country lanes around here airbourne!

Edited by Chris71 on Monday 10th May 15:45

[Mr Red Barron]

Thanks Chris....very usefull info there!

I've been looking at ex-race cars as they seem to be quite a lot cheaper than the road going variants. However I don't think i can justify the stripped out interior to the missus. I'll be using it on the road 95% of the time so hard suspension settings and racing seats are out of the question.

I really like the look of a K series.....it's just finsing one for the right price thats the issue. Not completely opposed to the Vauxhall engine (considering what I currently drive!) but looking at a newer type car without the long front wheel arches. Just prefer the look.

What am I looking at running costs wise? Not bothered about fuel as such but Tax, parts and servicing? insurance looks similar to what i'm paying at the moment with the Monaro.

[Chris71]

Mr Red Barron said:

What am I looking at running costs wise? Not bothered about fuel as such but Tax, parts and servicing? insurance looks similar to what i'm paying at the moment with the Monaro.

Not a lot really. I can only speak for the 1600 K-Series, but it's been pretty cheap so far. If you shop around I'd expect you could insure it for significantly less than the Monaro. I'm in my twenties with a recent claim and limited NCB in a dodgy area with one of the highest risk professions and I still only pay about £350 a year on a limited mileage policy.

Taxation will be rated on the pre-2001 system, even if your car is post 2001 as they don't have a CO2 rating. Basically £190ish a year.

Parts aren't too bad. When you consider they're often bits of old Rover the prices Caterham charge aren't as cheap as they might be, but they're still good value compared to anything more mainstream with even vaguely similar performance. To be fair that's the case with any kit car based on mass produce donor parts, but what's different is the support available. Having a one-stop-shop where you can get anything from engine oil to a whole new chassis is hugely useful too. It's a lot easier than rummaging around trying to find obscure second hand parts as you can with some other kits (I speak from experience!) What's more they're easy cars to work on yourself, but you can find dozens of specialists and even a couple of actual main dealers if you want to do things that way, so the options are pretty open.

Coincidentally fuel economy is very good at low speeds (if you're buzzing round country lanes for example). At high speed (on a track or motorway) it's a different story though. The Seven's woeful aerodynamics blunt its economy as well as its peformance at high speeds compared to closed-wheel cars.

So they're cheap to run. They're almost totally immune to depreciation too, which is worth factoring in. IMHO that's the biggest reason for buying a Caterham over the various cheaper Seven clones - it may be an expensive toy, but it'll still be an expensive toy when you sell it!

Edited by Chris71 on Monday 10th May 17:29

[Epimetheus]

Mr Red Barron said:

Thanks Chris....very usefull info there!

I've been looking at ex-race cars as they seem to be quite a lot cheaper than the road going variants. However I don't think i can justify the stripped out interior to the missus.

You can fit carpets, mats and nice (ideally used) seats very easily. From 'race car' interior to a plush (relatively speaking) interior is just a few hours work.

[Weon]

Seriously jealous of your situation, going from a Monaro to a Caterham.

I've been a massive fan since sitting in one at the '97 Motor Show. Until that point I was sold on the 911 but there was something much more raw about the Caterham that just clicked for me.

Still got plans to get one someday.

In the meantime, DO IT!

[Incorrigible]

IMHO for that money and the sort of specthat makes a nice road car you should seriously consider going the ex race route. Prices have come down further than when Chris bought his, you could get a 2005/6 car 1600 roadsport k with soft seats, screen choice, roll over/cage, choice, weather gear for £10k tatty or £11.5-12k with a new paint job.

I would also say that the 160 hp crossflow is a bit hardcore for general road use and is likely to cost more to run than a k

Where in the country are you, we've got an ex racer nearly ready to go back on the road, come and have a look

[EVS777]

I had My 1600SS for 15 months now ,had it for £11.5k it was in good condition , come with a folder of reciepts and service history, it's a '98 car but it had had a lot spent on it over years, new 15" anthracite wheels ,smaller headlights, back pack, big brakes, carbon dash, 6sp box....but no LSD...but dont find it a problem as mainly road use...You just got to set a budget... pick a spec..and try and find a car with as many boxes ticked as you can!! can always change things or add things later..its part of the fun of owning a Caterham!!
Running costs are pretty good...a set of rear tyres..one service a year!...my front tyres are the same after 7000miles!!..and brake pads are still good too!

Good Luck

Al..

[chris_speed]

I went the 1600K Series route too. Don't rule out cars without the right parts. Do some investigation on how much it costs to add those bits on eg - a screen is £100 second hand and very quick to fit. Chassis condition and good history is important. (my car was rebuilt by Arch recently for example, and had a engine and gearbox rebuild too)

[Chris71]

Incorrigible said:

IMHO for that money and the sort of specthat makes a nice road car you should seriously consider going the ex race route. Prices have come down further than when Chris bought his, you could get a 2005/6 car 1600 roadsport k with soft seats, screen choice, roll over/cage, choice, weather gear for £10k tatty or £11.5-12k with a new paint job.

I would also say that the 160 hp crossflow is a bit hardcore for general road use and is likely to cost more to run than a k

Where in the country are you, we've got an ex racer nearly ready to go back on the road, come and have a look

Yep, I somewhat impatiently bought mine at their highest price in ages. On reflection it wasn't the most sensible move. They've definitely come down now, but I think prices are still fairly stable as used cars go.

I'd echo the comment above. If you're anywhere near North London/Herts and want to take a look at the more basic end of the ex-racer market (cosmetically at least) you're welcome to have a look at mine and come out for a ride.

I paid a smidge over £10k for a car that's the same mechanical spec as a Superlight at a time when they started at nearly £15k. It's not the prettiest example in the world and it's missing a few creature comforts, but for 50% extra I was willing to forego those. That said, I was quite insistent on things like a 6-speed box and a LSD for track work, but if you're going to spend most of your time on the road you don't need those. In fact a LSD can make it rather interesting in the wet and only really adds interest if you're on a track or a bit of a hooligan (I tend to be both). Likewise the 6-speed 'box is pretty low geared for cruising (6th is the same as 4th in the normal 5-speed) and you probably don't need the big brakes on the road.

What I would suggest going for is a decent full hood, soft seats, a heated screen (to help demisting) and possibly a heater if you're looking to go touring. If you plan on doing long distances I'd also probably suggest the combination of an 1800 K-Series and a 5-speed box if it comes in budget. The 1600 Supersport is very revvy, so although it's got a reasonable amount of torque its racey nature feels better suited to the 6-speed IMHO. The standard 1800 seems a little bit lazier in its delivery and the extra torque suits the 5-speed. Coincidentally, my 1600SS is fractionally quicker in a straight line than a friend's 2-litre Zetec Westfield, so even the babies of the range are no slouch. That said it's over 100kg lighter.

[7tastic]

Quote
"I would also say that the 160 hp crossflow is a bit hardcore for general road use and is likely to cost more to run than a k"

I have a 160 bhp x-flow which pulls well in 5th from 30 mph and is lovely to drive, fuel consumption may be a bit on the high side compaired with a k but the sounds from the webbers are worth the extra cost.
I personally wanted a bit more power than the 130bhp car I had when i was younger and have been very pleased with my car for the last 10 years.
If you want something with a bit more power than a basic k then a x-flow is a good cost efective alternative (k owners will look down thier noses a bit at the older engine even if they cant keep up )

[Shaun_E]

Are my eyes deceiving me or is that crossflow fuel injected?

[Epimetheus]

Shaun_E said:

Are my eyes deceiving me or is that crossflow fuel injected?

Having downloaded the photos and zoomed in, I'd say it looks like it is.

[BertBert]

Chris71 said:

That said, I was quite insistent on things like a 6-speed box and a LSD for track work, but if you're going to spend most of your time on the road you don't need those.

Oh yes you do! The 6-speeder is far better than the manky old 5 speeder from Caterham. Agree LSD is not key though, but get one as you'll want to do donuts at some point.

I think one of the most perpetuated myths (no offence Chris!) of Caterham buying advice is that for "Touring" you should go for a 5 speeder. No you shouldn't. Been there done that. The only negative difference of the 6 speeder is possibly noise. If you are going any distance in a caterham you need ear protection anyway.

The 6 is far, far more fun on the road, on track, in bed, wherever, than the 5.

Bert

[chris_speed]

Agree about the sentiments regarding the 6 speed box. If you can find a 5 speed that's been rebuilt with different ratios though, that may be a good alternative. And I think as an enthusiast a RWDer really should have a LSD!

[Eugene7]

Eugene is 26 years old... but is now an aeroscreened (Brooklands) long cockpit (but with bench seats), LSD live axle, 205BHP Zetec, with BGH 5 Speed...

This is the kind of car that money really can buy. But is now so well specified to my liking it's hard for me to find better.

The moral?

You can always change things, and a BGH 5 speed is better than a 6 speed - and BGH designed the 6 speed for Caterham.

[Chris71]

BertBert said:

I think one of the most perpetuated myths (no offence Chris!) of Caterham buying advice is that for "Touring" you should go for a 5 speeder. No you shouldn't. Been there done that. The only negative difference of the 6 speeder is possibly noise. If you are going any distance in a caterham you need ear protection anyway.

None taken. It's just my personal observation that the 6-speed CR 'box does make things very noisy on the motorway. No Seven is luxurious and so perhaps it's a moot point, but I'd personally feel happier with a few less rpm per thousand revs if I had to drive to Germany and back.

What would a Vauxhall engined car (an HPC or something) be like in that respect? I seem to remember they were well regarded for touring and good value. I'd have been very tempted if it wasn't for the track day noise tests - I'd had enough of arsing around with bolt-on silencers and the like when I had a TVR.

[rubystone]

Chris71 said:

What would a Vauxhall engined car (an HPC or something) be like in that respect? I seem to remember they were well regarded for touring and good value. I'd have been very tempted if it wasn't for the track day noise tests - I'd had enough of arsing around with bolt-on silencers and the like when I had a TVR.

Nice cars the 2.0 VX. I owned a well sorted HPC on Webers. It came with a 6 speed 'box too and he lower ratio 'diff. Result was a car that topped out at 120ish but was quick on track. So as a tourer it was compromised....didn't stop me putting several '000 miles on it on the L7Club Swiss trip though in 2005. I know a chap who puts 5 figure mileages on his 6 speed cars every year touring Europe and the UK and he has no problems with the fact that indeed, the car is a little noisier on a motorway.

An HPC with a BGH modified 5 speed would be a great tourer and you can dial out most of the effects of that heavier engine if you get someone who knows what they are doing to set it up.

[johnny7]

agree a well sorted hpc is a quick reliable car for track and road, don"t believe all this boat anchor crap--its usaully from those that have never driven/owned one, on the noise front its induction noise thats the problem, but you can get over it.

Edited by johnny7 on Wednesday 12th May 22:58

[g7jhp]

If you haven't driven an HPC you should try one.

It'll keep up with an R300, great power and torque make for a relaxed drive. The sound of an HPC on full chat is intoxicating, you'll be searching for the nearest tunnel to scream through.