Engine question and Insurance question

[michaeljclark]

Tomorrow I have a test drive booked at Caterham South - it will be in the 175BHP press car they have there (as I want the lowererd floor and a "bigger" car )

The car I'm actually looking to get has a 1.6 125bhp Ford Sigma engine. What's it like in day to day use? I apprciate that the test drive car is much more powerful, and I'm not really after outright speed, but I'm thinking that 125BHP is more that enough for a good time? I've already got 132 on my X-Type TDCi (a different beast I know - which does me just fine) but would I be right to think that I'm still going to get a smile on my face?

I've had insurance quotes from Adrian Flux £370 and Caterham for £490, now the Flux package has better European cover, but the Caterham includes 3 track days. How much do you normally pay for individual track day insurance?

Fingers crossed for (a) some good answers (b) a result tomorrow

Thanks

Mike

[casbar]

I have no experience of Sigma engine cars, but would suggest you do a search on www.blatchat.com for owners views. AFAIK, the Sigma engined cars are not as popular as the Duratec cars, which I presume the one you are driving is, and the engines perform differently.

I have never had less power than 155bhp and my current engine is a R300 K series, which is 160ish bhp. I would say 120ish is a little low and you will soon want more power, especially if two up or on a track. I would expect the 175bhp car to be really good, although I have never driven a Duratec car.

Insurance wise, also try Richard Eggar, who give 4 free trackdays. Individual trackday cover on its own, can be quite expensive, over £100 for the day. If going on the track I would get insurance though, I pinged my car a couple of weeks ago on the track, and am really glad I had insurance, although I haven't had the repair quote yet On a track the insurance only covers your own car, even if someone else takes you out, your car will be repaired, so worth it, as things do go wrong

Edited by casbar on Thursday 8th April 13:05

[MikeO996]

casbar said:

On a track the insurance only covers your own car,

Don't understand this - are you saying you have no third party cover?

[casbar]

Yes, on a track, if you take out trackday insurance, it only covers damage to your own car, whether you crash, or someone else takes you out. A lot, take the risk and have no insurance. But if someone takes you out, you have to repair your own car yourself, their insurance if they have it, only covers their car, so its kind of tough!

That's why I always take out insurance, because you could be out of pocket through no fault of your own.

[MikeO996]

As it happens just had chance to check this out with an insurer. Because of the disclaimer everyone signs at the beginning of any trackday a thrid party would really struggle to sue you for damage done to them or their vehicle - and this has been tested in Court.

[Chris71]

Those quotes don't sound too bad for a recent Seven, but one other company who're worth speaking to are Richard Egger.

They insure mine - an old Roadsport A ex-racer - for about £350pa but I'm quite young with a recent claim and living in a high risk area. That includes 4 or 5 track days inclusive I think.

[michaeljclark]

casbar said:

I have no experience of Sigma engine cars, but would suggest you do a search on www.blatchat.com for owners views.

Yeah - it would seem very few own Sigma's by the looks of things - done a search for sigma - not a lot there (Can't even joint the sight - not a Member of the "7" club.)

casbar said:

I would say 120ish is a little low and you will soon want more power, especially if two up or on a track. I would expect the 175bhp car to be really good, although I have never driven a Duratec car.

Thought about that - save some money and in a few year get the 150bhp upgrade

The thing is that I'm not a speed deamon, I appreciate speed but also have a budget. My X-Type goes well enough for my likeing, so I figure that a Caterham @ 125bhp that weights 550Kg is going to go like brown smelly stuff of s shovel compared to a my X-Type Estate which is 3 times the weight with the same (almost) power. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this guys.

casbar said:

try Richard Eggar

Next task (but don't tell my boss - I've been doing lots of non work related stuff, maily "7" related stuff)

[casbar]

As I said, not an expert on the Sigma cars, but my understanding is, they are not very upgradeable, that is why most go for the Duratec option if they want the newer engines.

You can search Blatchat as a non member, just can't post. Also get yourself along to a local club meet, someone will take you out for a spin so you can judge the different engines, most meets have a variety of cars there.

[beckerman]

It sounds like I got a good deal with mine from what everyone is quoting above - 235 quid from Adrian Flux and it didn't seem to make any difference which engine it was - I had the same quote for my '90 BDR and for a 2.0 VXC that I was also looking at. Maybe you should see what they'd want for an older car??

[Tango7]

michaeljclark said:

The car I'm actually looking to get has a 1.6 125bhp Ford Sigma engine. What's it like in day to day use? I apprciate that the test drive car is much more powerful, and I'm not really after outright speed, but I'm thinking that 125BHP is more that enough for a good time? I've already got 132 on my X-Type TDCi (a different beast I know - which does me just fine) but would I be right to think that I'm still going to get a smile on my face?

I've had insurance quotes from Adrian Flux £370 and Caterham for £490, now the Flux package has better European cover, but the Caterham includes 3 track days. How much do you normally pay for individual track day insurance?

I have got a 1600 Sigma Academy car. Originally I was after a k series car (still an academy one) but this came one came up at the right price and nothing else was offered so I took the plunge. I have driven the Duratec R400 and didn't like the feel and smoothness of the Ford unit and this is why I wanted the peakiness of the K series.

However, I find the little Sigma engine absolutely superb to drive. It hasn't got masses of power so you really have to drive it to get the most out of it. The car is really well balanced and handles the road brilliantly possibly due to the stiffer metric chassis (made even stiffer with the roll cage) and its real laugh to zip along in. Overtaking has to be planned and you need to judge the manoeuvre properly as there isn't oodles of power to punch your way through but that's part of the fun.

I entered the L7C speed championship last year and we finished pretty well and surprised a few folks out there. The car did several trackdays with me for practice and never ever missed a beat. I did the Anglesey TD in October and the car was running at 10/10ths pretty much all the time and managed 9-10mpg so that showed how hard it was being pushed. Usually its around low-mid 30's.

Don't test the 175 bhp car and then jump straight into a 125bhp Sigma as you might be a little disappointed with the lack of power but give it a little time and I think you will find it brilliant. The Sigma cars are very civilised and I think from what you are saying it would be a good option as a general weekend toy.

T

Edited by Tango7 on Thursday 8th April 19:38

[BertBert]

as a complete aside, the trackday disclaimers are often different from each other.

In some you agree that you will sue no-one (including other drivers), in some you agree you wont sue the organisers and the track owners (not-including other drivers).

Bert

[michaeljclark]

Tango7 said:

Lots of useful stuff

Thanks Tango7

You are quite right, it will be used for a weekend toy/trips on good days, in fact I've got a holiday in Devon coming up mid next month that I think you be an excellent opportunity to "get to know" you (assuming reasonable weather) before our main holiday which will involve a trip to Scotland and touring back down the country in August.

As previously stated, I'm not after something that's going to set my hair on fire or catch me out becuase I've used too much power, something sensible (if you see what I mean) to begin with. If in a few years I decide it's not got enough poke, it can have the 150bhp upgrade or maybe I'll get something with more power.

Mike

[michaeljclark]

if I had put my brain in gear I'd have looked for summat on PH

Well here we go: http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=112&i=160...

A review of a 1.6 125bhp Road Sport: 0-60 in 5.9 seconds, my X-Type (according to Parkers) will do it in 9.8. The Jag gives me a smile, so near as dammit 4 seconds quicker, the Caterham should have me grinning like the wide mouthed frog!

[casbar]

BertBert said:

as a complete aside, the trackday disclaimers are often different from each other.

In some you agree that you will sue no-one (including other drivers), in some you agree you wont sue the organisers and the track owners (not-including other drivers).

Bert

You would still have a real job trying to sue another driver because of an accident. You can't cover yourself for third party claims, even with track insurance. I maybe wrong, but I don't think anyone has managed to win in court against any third party on a track. If you could sue, I would think it would kill trackdays, or organisers need to sort out their disclaimers. I will read them next time, instead of just signing I think this subject was covered last year in the trackday forum

[ewenm]

michaeljclark said:

if I had put my brain in gear I'd have looked for summat on PH

Well here we go: http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=112&i=160...

A review of a 1.6 125bhp Road Sport: 0-60 in 5.9 seconds, my X-Type (according to Parkers) will do it in 9.8. The Jag gives me a smile, so near as dammit 4 seconds quicker, the Caterham should have me grinning like the wide mouthed frog!

The first engine in my 7 was a 1.6 K-Series with 115bhp - it certainly didn't feel in any way slow and was still one of the quickest cars you'd meet in normal road driving.

Insurance-wise, many people don't bother to insure for trackdays at all...

[MikeO996]

casbar said:

BertBert said:

as a complete aside, the trackday disclaimers are often different from each other.

In some you agree that you will sue no-one (including other drivers), in some you agree you wont sue the organisers and the track owners (not-including other drivers).

Bert

You would still have a real job trying to sue another driver because of an accident. You can't cover yourself for third party claims, even with track insurance. I maybe wrong, but I don't think anyone has managed to win in court against any third party on a track. If you could sue, I would think it would kill trackdays, or organisers need to sort out their disclaimers. I will read them next time, instead of just signing I think this subject was covered last year in the trackday forum

I think in the test case the Judge basically said to the claimant "you knew what you were taking on and the risks involved - it was a trackday ffs" or words to that effect, before kicking him out.

[Hanslow]

Hi Mike,

I pick my Sigma 125 tomorrow. I'd pitched the 175 duratec as everything I would pretty much want based on spec, opinions etc. Having looked at the high prices (for me!) new, lack of second hand ones, I widened my search. I'd test driven a 135bhp K series at Caterham Midlands who looked after me very well, but felt I wanted a little more.

Ended up being looked after extremely well by Jon at Millwood and was lucky enough to try both the 125 and 150 powered Sigmas, with expectations the 125 would be underpowered. I was wrong. Ok, some people may say I would have been right, but I certainly didn't feel it was lacking. It wasn't brutal quick, but it was nippy, and for my first Caterham, I wanted one that was still relatively young in its age, and something I could learn without throwing myself into a ditch, which I'm hoping this one will prove to be.

The best advice I'd read in general, was to treat each car individually and see if it feels right, if it does, you'll likely be happy. I've driven two litre zetec Westfields, so I'm aware of higher brutal power/speed, but for me, this particular car just felt right.

Hope your test drive is a good one, the weather is looking good for you today, and for my two and a half hour drive back from Millwood tomorrow.

[casbar]

Post in 6 months time, and then let us know if you still think 125bhp is enough, I would wager, like most of us, intially the car seems really quick, but its not long before you crave more. Most feel the R300 power is about the right balance. But hey, its your choice, so enjoy

[casbar]

ewenm said:

michaeljclark said:

if I had put my brain in gear I'd have looked for summat on PH

Well here we go: http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=112&i=160...

A review of a 1.6 125bhp Road Sport: 0-60 in 5.9 seconds, my X-Type (according to Parkers) will do it in 9.8. The Jag gives me a smile, so near as dammit 4 seconds quicker, the Caterham should have me grinning like the wide mouthed frog!

The first engine in my 7 was a 1.6 K-Series with 115bhp - it certainly didn't feel in any way slow and was still one of the quickest cars you'd meet in normal road driving.

Insurance-wise, many people don't bother to insure for trackdays at all...

Yep, most people don't bother to insure at trackdays. But after my off, my parts list is already at 4k, without labour, so I'm really glad I bothered

[Nicodema]

Very good to deal with at Richard Egger. I got a grown woman to say "Grrrrrr" there last week