R500 driving impressions
Discussion
Took a R500 (1.8 Minister K series) for a test drive today. Not brilliant conditions, damp and too much slow traffic around, but was quite surprised by it.
Had no problem at all with the handling, acceleration and brakes, loved all that but really surprised by just how undriveable it was on a light throttle.I knew that people say it's track biased and too much of a compromise for the road for most people, but assumed that was about suspension settings etc, whereas it felt like a complete nightmare at low speed or even just keeping a steady speed in flowing traffic - there's no way you could use it as an occasional commute, and for trackdays at any distance at all you would be looking at trailoring (then you'd have to get past the noise police - too focussed for the road, too noisy for track wtf??).
The pops and bangs you get are quite cool, but kangarooing at anything less than three quarters throttle seemed a bit much. It seemed happy only as it would be on track, either hard on the throttle or on the brakes.
I guess it could be great if you live out in the country and have clear roads on the doorstep, but otherwise impossible.
Would this fit with others' experiences - or does it sound like a duff one?
Next in line is to try a R300 - following conventional wisdom that is the best road/track compromise.
Had no problem at all with the handling, acceleration and brakes, loved all that but really surprised by just how undriveable it was on a light throttle.I knew that people say it's track biased and too much of a compromise for the road for most people, but assumed that was about suspension settings etc, whereas it felt like a complete nightmare at low speed or even just keeping a steady speed in flowing traffic - there's no way you could use it as an occasional commute, and for trackdays at any distance at all you would be looking at trailoring (then you'd have to get past the noise police - too focussed for the road, too noisy for track wtf??).
The pops and bangs you get are quite cool, but kangarooing at anything less than three quarters throttle seemed a bit much. It seemed happy only as it would be on track, either hard on the throttle or on the brakes.
I guess it could be great if you live out in the country and have clear roads on the doorstep, but otherwise impossible.
Would this fit with others' experiences - or does it sound like a duff one?
Next in line is to try a R300 - following conventional wisdom that is the best road/track compromise.
Mike,
the early R400 and R500 cars were horrible for this. I've heard that the Emerald ECU sorts it.
However, both the high output K's I've driven 9 Superlight R, R500 K series) were horrible at 30 mph, no matter what gear, and had you kangarooing like a learner in a micra. The DR500 is a totally different ballgame- tourquey and nice low down, and a raging animal above 6k. The sequential box is really, really noisy tho.
the early R400 and R500 cars were horrible for this. I've heard that the Emerald ECU sorts it.
However, both the high output K's I've driven 9 Superlight R, R500 K series) were horrible at 30 mph, no matter what gear, and had you kangarooing like a learner in a micra. The DR500 is a totally different ballgame- tourquey and nice low down, and a raging animal above 6k. The sequential box is really, really noisy tho.
My 1900K puts out 244bhp and is as sweet pootling around at 30mph as it is on track. NEVER kangeroos and will pull smoothly in ANY gear from around 1500rpm (It barks like a Rotweiler with it's proverbials in a vice if you give it some welly though!)
It's to do with running off an Emerald and it being properly set up, therefore don't assume all big power Ks are bad.
Stu.
It's to do with running off an Emerald and it being properly set up, therefore don't assume all big power Ks are bad.
Stu.
Graham E said:
Mike,
the early R400 and R500 cars were horrible for this. I've heard that the Emerald ECU sorts it.
However, both the high output K's I've driven 9 Superlight R, R500 K series) were horrible at 30 mph, no matter what gear, and had you kangarooing like a learner in a micra. The DR500 is a totally different ballgame- tourquey and nice low down, and a raging animal above 6k. The sequential box is really, really noisy tho.
R300's suffered from this, its to do with the Roller Barrs and the MBE ECU. I had my MBE ECU mapped correctly and it sorted it out. So you don't need an after market ECU. There is also a technique for driving the car, which limits the effect, not a tech explaination, but it happens when your right foot bounces on the fast pedal, and so the ECU tells the fueling to go up. If you kind of damp your foot against the footwell side, it stops the kangarooing, or you can slip the clutch slightly. Or get the car mapped correctly the early R400 and R500 cars were horrible for this. I've heard that the Emerald ECU sorts it.
However, both the high output K's I've driven 9 Superlight R, R500 K series) were horrible at 30 mph, no matter what gear, and had you kangarooing like a learner in a micra. The DR500 is a totally different ballgame- tourquey and nice low down, and a raging animal above 6k. The sequential box is really, really noisy tho.
V7SLR said:
My 1900K puts out 244bhp and is as sweet pootling around at 30mph as it is on track. NEVER kangeroos and will pull smoothly in ANY gear from around 1500rpm (It barks like a Rotweiler with it's proverbials in a vice if you give it some welly though!)
It's to do with running off an Emerald and it being properly set up, therefore don't assume all big power Ks are bad.
Stu.
My 1800, circa 230hp K also pulls smoothly in any gear, and having a relatively strong throttle return spring and a delicate right foot, an Emerald ECU with appropriate light load mapping, results in a very smooth pickup.It's to do with running off an Emerald and it being properly set up, therefore don't assume all big power Ks are bad.
Stu.
Don't tar all K series with the "crap factory map" brush
Mmmmm, whole new possibilities opening up then - having written it off I'm now thinking that it could be a go-er with a suitable remap. I did love the performane, and if could have that with some docile tractability then......
Just wonder if I go for the R300 I'll always be wondering whether I should have gone the whole hog.
And it sounds like I could hit the same issues with the R300 if it's down to the roller barrels.
Just wonder if I go for the R300 I'll always be wondering whether I should have gone the whole hog.
And it sounds like I could hit the same issues with the R300 if it's down to the roller barrels.
MikeO996 said:
Mmmmm, whole new possibilities opening up then - having written it off I'm now thinking that it could be a go-er with a suitable remap. I did love the performane, and if could have that with some docile tractability then......
Just wonder if I go for the R300 I'll always be wondering whether I should have gone the whole hog.
And it sounds like I could hit the same issues with the R300 if it's down to the roller barrels.
A suitable remap (whether on an aftermarket ECU or a reflash of the stock unit if it's possible to remap it) will also most likely vastly improve the mid range throttle response, and also the idle. Most of the aftermarket ECUs have the option of far more granular load sites than the (earlier) stock items, so the transition between sites is far more gradual.Just wonder if I go for the R300 I'll always be wondering whether I should have gone the whole hog.
And it sounds like I could hit the same issues with the R300 if it's down to the roller barrels.
Give either Steve Greenauld at www.tracknroad.com (01708 869189) or Dave Walker at www.emeraldm3d.com (01953 889110). Both are very experienced mappers with lots of experience of mapping various spec caterhams. Dave has squeezed 262hp from a 1.8K and 287hp from a 1.9K (both Dave Andrews built). Steve Greenauld may have more experience with ECUs other than Emerald though (MBE, etc).
Both are perfectionists and come highly recommended by most of the Caterham community who have either had cars remapped, or run aftermarket ECUs
I've had one that suffered badly from low-speed throttle problems, and one that didn't. Shortly after I sold it, the bad one had a roller barrell rebuild.
You learn to drive around it in time. The experience once you are above idle more than makes up for it.
If I was buying one today, I'd get a non-roller barrel k-series superlight R though.
You learn to drive around it in time. The experience once you are above idle more than makes up for it.
If I was buying one today, I'd get a non-roller barrel k-series superlight R though.
MikeO996 said:
Took a R500 (1.8 Minister K series) for a test drive today. Not brilliant conditions, damp and too much slow traffic around, but was quite surprised by it.
Had no problem at all with the handling, acceleration and brakes, loved all that but really surprised by just how undriveable it was on a light throttle.I knew that people say it's track biased and too much of a compromise for the road for most people, but assumed that was about suspension settings etc, whereas it felt like a complete nightmare at low speed or even just keeping a steady speed in flowing traffic - there's no way you could use it as an occasional commute, and for trackdays at any distance at all you would be looking at trailoring (then you'd have to get past the noise police - too focussed for the road, too noisy for track wtf??).
The pops and bangs you get are quite cool, but kangarooing at anything less than three quarters throttle seemed a bit much. It seemed happy only as it would be on track, either hard on the throttle or on the brakes.
I guess it could be great if you live out in the country and have clear roads on the doorstep, but otherwise impossible.
Would this fit with others' experiences - or does it sound like a duff one?
Next in line is to try a R300 - following conventional wisdom that is the best road/track compromise.
Mike,Had no problem at all with the handling, acceleration and brakes, loved all that but really surprised by just how undriveable it was on a light throttle.I knew that people say it's track biased and too much of a compromise for the road for most people, but assumed that was about suspension settings etc, whereas it felt like a complete nightmare at low speed or even just keeping a steady speed in flowing traffic - there's no way you could use it as an occasional commute, and for trackdays at any distance at all you would be looking at trailoring (then you'd have to get past the noise police - too focussed for the road, too noisy for track wtf??).
The pops and bangs you get are quite cool, but kangarooing at anything less than three quarters throttle seemed a bit much. It seemed happy only as it would be on track, either hard on the throttle or on the brakes.
I guess it could be great if you live out in the country and have clear roads on the doorstep, but otherwise impossible.
Would this fit with others' experiences - or does it sound like a duff one?
Next in line is to try a R300 - following conventional wisdom that is the best road/track compromise.
Which car were you looking at? I am in the market for a k-series R400/500 (having decided not to do the Academy this year) and apart from the two at Caterham and one at Millwood there seem to be very few about.
I would be interested to know more about the drivability issues and how many cars people think will have been re-mapped as a result. Also, was this a problem with earlier cars only, or throughout the production run.
Alex Gurr said:
[Which car were you looking at?
It was one of the ones you mention - for some reason I feel a bit reluctant to identify it, though it's not really naming and shaming. Let's just say if anyone's driven the one at Millwoods I'd be curious how that compares (it's only got 2000 miles or so on it which implies maybe it's not a great drive).I guess I'd feel very dubious about buying a car that wasn't right in the hope of sorting it out with a remap - but if it could be done by the dealer as part of their prep then that might be different.
Also a bit worried by earlier comment that implies it could be sign of roller barrels needing a rebuild.
Edited by MikeO996 on Thursday 25th March 15:48
A couple of the local Worcs lads had their MBE-ECU'd K's remapped at Mech Repairs in Cheltenham. Although I prefer Emeralds for the easy-to-use interface, I have to say the results of their remaps with the MBE were exactly the same. The cars went in all lumpy and jumpy, and came out beautifully smooth, and with a little more power all through the rev range.
Mapping an Emerald is a fixed price - Dave Walker advertises this price and works to it no matter the effort required. Mapping the MBE was more expensive (around £400) but they didn't have the initial purchase price to consider.
I have always found it difficult to understand why Caterham sent cars out with such poor maps when £400 buys a map so enormously superior to the one supplied. And I would be confident that even applying that map to other cars (without individually testing on the rolling road) would result in a far better map that the one supplied.
Mapping an Emerald is a fixed price - Dave Walker advertises this price and works to it no matter the effort required. Mapping the MBE was more expensive (around £400) but they didn't have the initial purchase price to consider.
I have always found it difficult to understand why Caterham sent cars out with such poor maps when £400 buys a map so enormously superior to the one supplied. And I would be confident that even applying that map to other cars (without individually testing on the rolling road) would result in a far better map that the one supplied.
Mars said:
A couple of the local Worcs lads had their MBE-ECU'd K's remapped at Mech Repairs in Cheltenham. Although I prefer Emeralds for the easy-to-use interface, I have to say the results of their remaps with the MBE were exactly the same. The cars went in all lumpy and jumpy, and came out beautifully smooth, and with a little more power all through the rev range.
Mapping an Emerald is a fixed price - Dave Walker advertises this price and works to it no matter the effort required. Mapping the MBE was more expensive (around £400) but they didn't have the initial purchase price to consider.
I have always found it difficult to understand why Caterham sent cars out with such poor maps when £400 buys a map so enormously superior to the one supplied. And I would be confident that even applying that map to other cars (without individually testing on the rolling road) would result in a far better map that the one supplied.
Will Caterham remap themselves (obviously relevant to question of whether I can get it done pre-purchase)Mapping an Emerald is a fixed price - Dave Walker advertises this price and works to it no matter the effort required. Mapping the MBE was more expensive (around £400) but they didn't have the initial purchase price to consider.
I have always found it difficult to understand why Caterham sent cars out with such poor maps when £400 buys a map so enormously superior to the one supplied. And I would be confident that even applying that map to other cars (without individually testing on the rolling road) would result in a far better map that the one supplied.
MikeO996 said:
Mars said:
A couple of the local Worcs lads had their MBE-ECU'd K's remapped at Mech Repairs in Cheltenham. Although I prefer Emeralds for the easy-to-use interface, I have to say the results of their remaps with the MBE were exactly the same. The cars went in all lumpy and jumpy, and came out beautifully smooth, and with a little more power all through the rev range.
Mapping an Emerald is a fixed price - Dave Walker advertises this price and works to it no matter the effort required. Mapping the MBE was more expensive (around £400) but they didn't have the initial purchase price to consider.
I have always found it difficult to understand why Caterham sent cars out with such poor maps when £400 buys a map so enormously superior to the one supplied. And I would be confident that even applying that map to other cars (without individually testing on the rolling road) would result in a far better map that the one supplied.
Will Caterham remap themselves (obviously relevant to question of whether I can get it done pre-purchase)Mapping an Emerald is a fixed price - Dave Walker advertises this price and works to it no matter the effort required. Mapping the MBE was more expensive (around £400) but they didn't have the initial purchase price to consider.
I have always found it difficult to understand why Caterham sent cars out with such poor maps when £400 buys a map so enormously superior to the one supplied. And I would be confident that even applying that map to other cars (without individually testing on the rolling road) would result in a far better map that the one supplied.
I'm not knowledgebale of everything R500, however my experience with my R500 K-series when acquired was that it was awful in traffic at low speed, helped only slightly by being soft with my right foot, and it had spent time on a rolling road being tuned. I just thought it was expected with a k-series with plus 230 bhp and lived with it for a while.
Then serviced at Minister's, new throttle body and timing belt, (the old had been tinkered with) updated the standard ECU & remapped / tuned and the results were brilliant! More power throughout the whole rev range, responsive and reliable, plus the emissions are MOT compliant. Now its no concern in traffic (before it was a complete nightmare). Thinking of the transformation still brings a smile to my face today. It has made the difference between selling it and now definately keeping it.
Then serviced at Minister's, new throttle body and timing belt, (the old had been tinkered with) updated the standard ECU & remapped / tuned and the results were brilliant! More power throughout the whole rev range, responsive and reliable, plus the emissions are MOT compliant. Now its no concern in traffic (before it was a complete nightmare). Thinking of the transformation still brings a smile to my face today. It has made the difference between selling it and now definately keeping it.
MikeO996 said:
Will Caterham remap themselves (obviously relevant to question of whether I can get it done pre-purchase)
As others have said, I'm not aware of this. They don't have a rolling road, so I'm baffled how they provide maps to begin with.Get it done post purchase. There are plenty of decent places around. Treat it as your first upgrade. There will be loads more to come.
Anyone know what was done to prep the R500 in the BBC Top Gear show in the way of engine related development for the track time? Straight out of the box or hours and lots of money of development? Was that a K-series? - can't remember any more 
Edited by Ult-Jim on Thursday 25th March 22:05
Ult-Jim said:
Anyone know what was done to prep the R500 in the BBC Top Gear show in the way of engine related development for the track time? Straight out of the box or hours and lots of money of development? Was that a K-series? - can't remember any more
Duratec - exhaust on driver side etc.Edited by Ult-Jim on Thursday 25th March 22:05
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