"Engine Refresh"
Discussion
I've heard a couple people say to avoid the Caterham R models because they need regular engine rebuilds. I've noticed a few for sale with Caterham that have had an "engine refresh". What is this likely to be and more to the point how much is it going to cost and how often?
Obviously will depend on usage, and hopefully compensated for by low depreciation, but would be useful to have some idea to factor into a potential purchase.
Cheers,
Mike
Obviously will depend on usage, and hopefully compensated for by low depreciation, but would be useful to have some idea to factor into a potential purchase.
Cheers,
Mike
Hi Mike, totally depends on the usage.
If your racing/tracking your car, then up to 3000 miles between each rebuild. Standard rebuilds/refreshes (nothing major wrong) average anywhere between the £4-6k mark.
If you doing road miles, then 9000 miles. Having said that, my r500 k series did 13000 without getting a refresh - but that was followed by a (very) hefty rebuild/upgrade.
Since then its been done much more frequently. Now sitting at a very comfortable 24000 miles
They are expensive, and for cheaper maintenance there is no doubt that duratec is the way to go. But the upgrades you can do to k-series (i.e. mine now running close to 260bhp) and the lighter engines, combined with the noise give a very exhilarating experience!
...but of course im going to say that
If your racing/tracking your car, then up to 3000 miles between each rebuild. Standard rebuilds/refreshes (nothing major wrong) average anywhere between the £4-6k mark.
If you doing road miles, then 9000 miles. Having said that, my r500 k series did 13000 without getting a refresh - but that was followed by a (very) hefty rebuild/upgrade.
Since then its been done much more frequently. Now sitting at a very comfortable 24000 miles
They are expensive, and for cheaper maintenance there is no doubt that duratec is the way to go. But the upgrades you can do to k-series (i.e. mine now running close to 260bhp) and the lighter engines, combined with the noise give a very exhilarating experience!
...but of course im going to say that
[quote=Supertoadylight]Hi Mike, totally depends on the usage.
If your racing/tracking your car, then up to 3000 miles between each rebuild. Standard rebuilds/refreshes (nothing major wrong) average anywhere between the £4-6k mark.
4-6K for a refresh........?
Seems high, is that at Minister?
If your racing/tracking your car, then up to 3000 miles between each rebuild. Standard rebuilds/refreshes (nothing major wrong) average anywhere between the £4-6k mark.
4-6K for a refresh........?
Seems high, is that at Minister?
properly maintained, warmed up well before caning it, fluids maintained, a R engine/VHPD will see you well over 30K miles before you even know it. check the compression once a year, monitor temps, check no oil in radator tank, are lot of engines are just fine.
treat your engine like a tw4t and you get what you gets....
treat your engine like a tw4t and you get what you gets....
With no disrespect to previous posters, ain't the internet great! So the answer's either every 3000 miles at a cost of 6 grand a shot, or 30,000 miles with no problem.
Having driven an early 996 for the last 6 years I'm well used to living with supposed ticking time bombs so reckon I might cope, but worst case scenario sounds like a considerable additional ru.nning cost
The plan would be half a dozen track days a year, but no racing, and I do tend to have some mechanical sympathy, by stopping a little short of the red line for instance.
Would the predicted cost be greater between R300, 400, and 500 with the higher levels of tune?
Having driven an early 996 for the last 6 years I'm well used to living with supposed ticking time bombs so reckon I might cope, but worst case scenario sounds like a considerable additional ru.nning cost
The plan would be half a dozen track days a year, but no racing, and I do tend to have some mechanical sympathy, by stopping a little short of the red line for instance.
Would the predicted cost be greater between R300, 400, and 500 with the higher levels of tune?
Mike, the comments you've heard about R models are completely unfounded - the R range covers a variety of engine outputs and to group them together is impossible. Also a carefully warmed up R500 may need less maintenance than a screwed R300!
R300s and R400s are fairly normal maintenance intervals and rebuilds, ie. for typical mileage give a full service and detailed check every 12 months. The R500s are a little more stressed, but if warmed up carefully and taken to "sensible" max revs they can be good, as mentioned, for 25000 miles before a rebuild. IIRC the original R500s had a max rev limit of 9000 - absolutely crazy with any engine if you want some life between rebuilds.
My 1900K puts out 244bhp at 8000 rpm, but ..... it's upto 200bhp at 6000 rpm so why push it hard? I have the rev limit set to 7200 with the soft cut at 7000 in the interest of longevity. I swap the oil and give it a good check over every 12 months but currently no good reason to contemplate a rebuild.
Stu.
R300s and R400s are fairly normal maintenance intervals and rebuilds, ie. for typical mileage give a full service and detailed check every 12 months. The R500s are a little more stressed, but if warmed up carefully and taken to "sensible" max revs they can be good, as mentioned, for 25000 miles before a rebuild. IIRC the original R500s had a max rev limit of 9000 - absolutely crazy with any engine if you want some life between rebuilds.
My 1900K puts out 244bhp at 8000 rpm, but ..... it's upto 200bhp at 6000 rpm so why push it hard? I have the rev limit set to 7200 with the soft cut at 7000 in the interest of longevity. I swap the oil and give it a good check over every 12 months but currently no good reason to contemplate a rebuild.
Stu.
I'm sorry but whoever came up with the 30,000 mile R500 k series engined car has to be misinformed/found a miracle.
As far as i know the highest mileage r500 k series without a rebuild was sitting on 18500 miles, guy was told it needed a rebuild - said he'd do it in the summer and 200 miles later blew the side out of the engine.
For an engine of 1.8 litres N/A, producing 230 bhp is VERY stressed and there is no way you would get 30,000 miles out of it.
My mileage was mostly motorways (used to have a boat in southampton so drove london - southampton and back most weekends in it. So thats pretty much the least stressed life it could of had.)
When it had a rebuild lets just say it was an expensive one.
Ended up costing near enough the same to do the whole r500 evolution upgrade (although now i have it im not complaining )
Also before people think i mistreat the car - its not set at 9000 rpm. Its set at 8000 and is always warmed up, has very regular oil changes and is never stressed before the oil is up to temperature.
AS far as im aware the guidelines are and always have been... 3000 miles if racing/tracking the car. 9000 max if your using it on the road.
Obviously these figures are probably airing on the side of caution, so add a bit more on but you get the gist...personally now i'd run it to 12000 miles between rebuild bearing in mind i do mostly road miles and occasionally (twice/three times a year) trackdays.
As far as i know the highest mileage r500 k series without a rebuild was sitting on 18500 miles, guy was told it needed a rebuild - said he'd do it in the summer and 200 miles later blew the side out of the engine.
For an engine of 1.8 litres N/A, producing 230 bhp is VERY stressed and there is no way you would get 30,000 miles out of it.
My mileage was mostly motorways (used to have a boat in southampton so drove london - southampton and back most weekends in it. So thats pretty much the least stressed life it could of had.)
When it had a rebuild lets just say it was an expensive one.
Ended up costing near enough the same to do the whole r500 evolution upgrade (although now i have it im not complaining
)Also before people think i mistreat the car - its not set at 9000 rpm. Its set at 8000 and is always warmed up, has very regular oil changes and is never stressed before the oil is up to temperature.
AS far as im aware the guidelines are and always have been... 3000 miles if racing/tracking the car. 9000 max if your using it on the road.
Obviously these figures are probably airing on the side of caution, so add a bit more on but you get the gist...personally now i'd run it to 12000 miles between rebuild bearing in mind i do mostly road miles and occasionally (twice/three times a year) trackdays.
Edited by Supertoadylight on Monday 1st March 01:09
allen l said:
Wow, I'm glad I don't have an R500. If I needed to rebuild the engine at least twice a year, I would lose my apetite for the car. Want to hop in and drive the bloody thing as much as I can.
BUT remember you have a car in a 500 which is faster than cars costing £500K, so put it that way its not so bad.....after an hour out in mine I know how a F1 driver feels after a race POORCARDEALER said:
allen l said:
Wow, I'm glad I don't have an R500. If I needed to rebuild the engine at least twice a year, I would lose my apetite for the car. Want to hop in and drive the bloody thing as much as I can.
BUT remember you have a car in a 500 which is faster than cars costing £500K, so put it that way its not so bad.....after an hour out in mine I know how a F1 driver feels after a race 
Supertoadylight said:
POORCARDEALER said:
allen l said:
Wow, I'm glad I don't have an R500. If I needed to rebuild the engine at least twice a year, I would lose my apetite for the car. Want to hop in and drive the bloody thing as much as I can.
BUT remember you have a car in a 500 which is faster than cars costing £500K, so put it that way its not so bad.....after an hour out in mine I know how a F1 driver feels after a race It's really difficult to determine the engine rebuild/refresh requirement on an R500. But dealing with the non-R500 "R" cars first, they really aren't a big problem IMHO. I'd want mine dry-sumped though, but my old SLR was always driven hard when I owned it and was still being driven hard by the next couple of owners with no issues (and it was wet-sumped). Tango 7 owns a well used, but well maintained SLR that I think has covered a chunk of miles....
The biggest enemy of the R500 is as others have said, being driven hard when the oil is not up to temp. 9200 rev limit was too high given the quality of the components specified for the engine....of course, if you do have a rebuild and take advantage of the recommended spec for that engine, Minister will set the rev limit quite happily back to 9,200 RPM...I am not sure that the extra 600RPM really delviers 30 bhp though....
A Minister refresh was no more than £2500 though for an R500, last time I looked, and that's a comprehensive job too. I paid Minister £6k for a full rebuild of my engine - but then it had been rebuilt by Stevie Wonder - twice....that covered, pistons, liners, rods, bolts, the work on the new head, a camshaft....as I said, it must've been Stevie who rebuilt it - who else would use shagged components from their first failed rebuild for the next one?
The biggest enemy of the R500 is as others have said, being driven hard when the oil is not up to temp. 9200 rev limit was too high given the quality of the components specified for the engine....of course, if you do have a rebuild and take advantage of the recommended spec for that engine, Minister will set the rev limit quite happily back to 9,200 RPM...I am not sure that the extra 600RPM really delviers 30 bhp though....
A Minister refresh was no more than £2500 though for an R500, last time I looked, and that's a comprehensive job too. I paid Minister £6k for a full rebuild of my engine - but then it had been rebuilt by Stevie Wonder - twice....that covered, pistons, liners, rods, bolts, the work on the new head, a camshaft....as I said, it must've been Stevie who rebuilt it - who else would use shagged components from their first failed rebuild for the next one?
POORCARDEALER said:
Supertoadylight said:
POORCARDEALER said:
allen l said:
Wow, I'm glad I don't have an R500. If I needed to rebuild the engine at least twice a year, I would lose my apetite for the car. Want to hop in and drive the bloody thing as much as I can.
BUT remember you have a car in a 500 which is faster than cars costing £500K, so put it that way its not so bad.....after an hour out in mine I know how a F1 driver feels after a race what did you sell it for?I'm seriously considering selling mine in a few months. Just got an Ultima and don't see the Caterham being used as much as it should....
But i love it to pieces and the amount of time put into that car over the last 5/6 years is too much to let go lightly!
Supertoadylight said:
POORCARDEALER said:
Supertoadylight said:
POORCARDEALER said:
allen l said:
Wow, I'm glad I don't have an R500. If I needed to rebuild the engine at least twice a year, I would lose my apetite for the car. Want to hop in and drive the bloody thing as much as I can.
BUT remember you have a car in a 500 which is faster than cars costing £500K, so put it that way its not so bad.....after an hour out in mine I know how a F1 driver feels after a race what did you sell it for?I'm seriously considering selling mine in a few months. Just got an Ultima and don't see the Caterham being used as much as it should....
But i love it to pieces and the amount of time put into that car over the last 5/6 years is too much to let go lightly!
Supertoadylight said:
POORCARDEALER said:
Supertoadylight said:
POORCARDEALER said:
allen l said:
Wow, I'm glad I don't have an R500. If I needed to rebuild the engine at least twice a year, I would lose my apetite for the car. Want to hop in and drive the bloody thing as much as I can.
BUT remember you have a car in a 500 which is faster than cars costing £500K, so put it that way its not so bad.....after an hour out in mine I know how a F1 driver feels after a race what did you sell it for?I had it built to my own spec by Gary May, and as much as I loved it I wasnt using it enough, as I had an elan sprint and a ferrari which I drove more, so I sold it, it was then sold again to a guy who posts on here.
I'm seriously considering selling mine in a few months. Just got an Ultima and don't see the Caterham being used as much as it should....
But i love it to pieces and the amount of time put into that car over the last 5/6 years is too much to let go lightly!
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