Newbie - what to buy and where to find one
Discussion
Hi,
I'm beginning to think seriously about venturing in to the world of the 7 and am looking for some advice.
I went to my first track day at Anglesea in the later part of last year and hired a 1600 Caterham from the Book-a-track team. It was, without question, the most exhilarating day of my life. The weather was good, and by late morning I was feeling comfortable with the car, making good progress and having the time of my life! I even got through the day without spinning it - much to my amazement.
I was immediately hooked.
A few weeks later, I went again - this time to Rockingham. With the 1600s sold out at Book-a-track, me and a friend hired an R300 from the team for the day. A wet day - and a very different and eye opening experience. Even at my most careful, spins mounted up and my confidence began to drain: I clearly have a huge amount to learn!
However, my new found love for the Caterham remained, and I'm beginning to think seriously about buying one pre-owned.
My typical usage would be a few weekend blasts and a fair few track days a year.
Which leads me to a few questions:
- Should I be overly put off by my wet Rockingham adventure? Or is wet handling of this type of car something that will come quickly with time and perhaps some wet-grip / skidpan training. My niggling concern is getting caught out on the road.
- What to go for? The 1600 superlight felt brilliant, but I'm tempted by the R300. What I don't have is a dry day comparison (due to my R300 day being in the wet). What are the pros / cons of going for the R300 vs a standard superlight?
- Where to look? I understand that Caterhams can be hard to come by. There are usually only a handfull in PistonHeads commercials - are there other sites I should be looking at to find more for sale or are most advertised on PH anyway?
Thanks so much for any advice you can give!
Dave
I'm beginning to think seriously about venturing in to the world of the 7 and am looking for some advice.
I went to my first track day at Anglesea in the later part of last year and hired a 1600 Caterham from the Book-a-track team. It was, without question, the most exhilarating day of my life. The weather was good, and by late morning I was feeling comfortable with the car, making good progress and having the time of my life! I even got through the day without spinning it - much to my amazement.
I was immediately hooked.
A few weeks later, I went again - this time to Rockingham. With the 1600s sold out at Book-a-track, me and a friend hired an R300 from the team for the day. A wet day - and a very different and eye opening experience. Even at my most careful, spins mounted up and my confidence began to drain: I clearly have a huge amount to learn!
However, my new found love for the Caterham remained, and I'm beginning to think seriously about buying one pre-owned.
My typical usage would be a few weekend blasts and a fair few track days a year.
Which leads me to a few questions:
- Should I be overly put off by my wet Rockingham adventure? Or is wet handling of this type of car something that will come quickly with time and perhaps some wet-grip / skidpan training. My niggling concern is getting caught out on the road.
- What to go for? The 1600 superlight felt brilliant, but I'm tempted by the R300. What I don't have is a dry day comparison (due to my R300 day being in the wet). What are the pros / cons of going for the R300 vs a standard superlight?
- Where to look? I understand that Caterhams can be hard to come by. There are usually only a handfull in PistonHeads commercials - are there other sites I should be looking at to find more for sale or are most advertised on PH anyway?
Thanks so much for any advice you can give!
Dave
Hi Dave,
TBH most R's you see on trackdays are driven nowhere near their capabilities.
To get the absolute best out of yourself withour spending massive money I would recomend looking at an ex Roadsport racer, RSA if possible. The later ones do not have a LSD or 6 speed box but are still a great car to learn in. Don't be fooled though, this liitle car with 120hp in the right hands will lap quicker than all but the big, big hp road cars.
Next step is to get a race team to set the car up for you then get yourself some professional instruction on a track day in your car. You will be amazed how you develop.
Do a season of that, sell or chop the car - you will not lose much at all - and go for bigger power with the R's. It may be a slightly longer way but after a couple of years you will be much further ahead than if you jumped straight in.
Best of luck.
TBH most R's you see on trackdays are driven nowhere near their capabilities.
To get the absolute best out of yourself withour spending massive money I would recomend looking at an ex Roadsport racer, RSA if possible. The later ones do not have a LSD or 6 speed box but are still a great car to learn in. Don't be fooled though, this liitle car with 120hp in the right hands will lap quicker than all but the big, big hp road cars.
Next step is to get a race team to set the car up for you then get yourself some professional instruction on a track day in your car. You will be amazed how you develop.
Do a season of that, sell or chop the car - you will not lose much at all - and go for bigger power with the R's. It may be a slightly longer way but after a couple of years you will be much further ahead than if you jumped straight in.
Best of luck.
I'd second the RSA suggestion if you're into track work. You can expect one with decent road tyres and the Supersport (135bhp 1.6) engine to be up there with the faster 911s on a twisty track. I'm also told that because they tend to have all the Superlight toys and a lightweight spec (mine's 518kg wet with no fancy carbon bits or anything...) then the performance is to all intents on a par, but the price for an ex-race RSA is significantly less than a 'real' Superlight (as in, a third less when I bought mine...)
There's a wealth of tuning parts available for the K-Series (and indeed the Seven) so if you did want to enhance certain aspects of the car it wouldn't be difficult.
Whatever you get, if you want to use it on the track I'd suggest finding something that's track biased. You don't want to pay a premium for a show car if you're going to be resting helmets on the bonnet and plastering the nosecone with dead flies and brake dust.
There's a wealth of tuning parts available for the K-Series (and indeed the Seven) so if you did want to enhance certain aspects of the car it wouldn't be difficult.
Whatever you get, if you want to use it on the track I'd suggest finding something that's track biased. You don't want to pay a premium for a show car if you're going to be resting helmets on the bonnet and plastering the nosecone with dead flies and brake dust.
I third the RSA suggestion of get an academy car and up grade it.
There are a few in the classifieds and some good deals to be had at the moment especially a green one ;-)
You just need to think what you want and what extras you want and then buy the car with all the right bits for you i.e. do you want doors,roof, cage etc etc Its much cheaper to buy one with all the right bits rather than buy an ex racer and then add all the right bit.
Phib
There are a few in the classifieds and some good deals to be had at the moment especially a green one ;-)
You just need to think what you want and what extras you want and then buy the car with all the right bits for you i.e. do you want doors,roof, cage etc etc Its much cheaper to buy one with all the right bits rather than buy an ex racer and then add all the right bit.
Phib
Just make a list of things you want on your car. It doesn't matter if you'll end up with an ex race car or not. It doesn't make sense if you need to put back half of the things on the car or the other way round. If you drive on the road 90% of your time, you might want to consider not to have the ultimate track suspension / setup / etc.
allen l said:
Just make a list of things you want on your car. It doesn't matter if you'll end up with an ex race car or not.
Very true, but if you want a track machine and your list includes big brakes, wide track, LSD, Supersport (or higher) engine, 6-speed box, meaty roll cage and so on, then there's a good chance the possible candidates will fall into two categories: Road-going Superlights with lots of expensive carbon bits for a small fortune or ex-track cars for an awful lot less.Things may have changed, but 6 months ago I found to get the spec I wanted (admittedly a very track orientated one) needed £10-12k for an ex-racer or £14-16k for a road car. Part of me would have prefered a 'real' Superlight and I did seriously look at a couple (thought I'd bought one for a while
) but a few days after I got my cheap ex-racer it did its first track day with me and I felt more confident turning up with a car I could afford to straighten. Fortunately that's not yet been required, but the Superlights were the best part of half the cost again for a very similar car.Edited by Chris71 on Thursday 7th January 13:57
Let me put it this way. Just ask yourself what you want to do with the car. For example, I do about 8-10 trackdays a year. The rest of the year I'm driving it on backroads as a daily ride. It means roadtrips, a trip to the local supermarket, etc.. So in my case I would love to have a heater, comfortable seats and some sort of weather protection. At the moment I'm considering a suspension upgrade, although I'll always remember to keep my roadtrips in mind. The B-roads are more important to me than the ten days I'm on the track. 
Also, the rollcage that fits under the hood is in consideration. Same reason. A higher one would be safer, but then again, I'm also using the car as my daily ride.
You could buy a pair of sneakers because you like them more, but if you're going hiking for ten days, then they don't make sense.
Also, the rollcage that fits under the hood is in consideration. Same reason. A higher one would be safer, but then again, I'm also using the car as my daily ride.
You could buy a pair of sneakers because you like them more, but if you're going hiking for ten days, then they don't make sense.
First step, get a copy of 'The Magnificent 7' which will give you an overview of models and all other things 7.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Magnificent-Seven-Enthusia...
Then decide what you want it for.
There's a 7 for everyone.
Early 7's - 1600 & 1700 Fords - good starters, but can be thirsty
K's - also good entry 7's, but some head problems
Vauxhall HPC's - good value and powerful, but thirsty and heavier handling
Superlights - More expensive and still K reliability
Latest Ford Cosworth 7's - nice but expensive
Do your research, go and join your local meet (see Blatchat).
If you want to see 7's on mass wait for one of the bigger national meets like Baywatch etc - 100+ 7's attend.
Personally I wanted a car mainly for the road, with decent performance so went for a VX HPC (compariable performance to my mates R300), with a nicer sound track, but can be thirsty (it's on carbs - and I've seen foot long flames come from the exhaust).
They are addictive.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Magnificent-Seven-Enthusia...
Then decide what you want it for.
There's a 7 for everyone.
Early 7's - 1600 & 1700 Fords - good starters, but can be thirsty
K's - also good entry 7's, but some head problems
Vauxhall HPC's - good value and powerful, but thirsty and heavier handling
Superlights - More expensive and still K reliability
Latest Ford Cosworth 7's - nice but expensive
Do your research, go and join your local meet (see Blatchat).
If you want to see 7's on mass wait for one of the bigger national meets like Baywatch etc - 100+ 7's attend.
Personally I wanted a car mainly for the road, with decent performance so went for a VX HPC (compariable performance to my mates R300), with a nicer sound track, but can be thirsty (it's on carbs - and I've seen foot long flames come from the exhaust).
They are addictive.
In terms of where to look...
Caterham themselves deal in second-hand cars, and there are a handful of specialist dealers (people like Millwood Caterham, just round the corner from where I live in South Gloucestershire, Woodcote Sportscars etc.), and some classic Lotus specialists also sell the occasional car (Paul Matty Sportscars, for exmaple, if you want someone you can trust, or UK Sportscars if you like a gamble) but PistonHeads classifieds is as good a source as any.
Remember that we're at the lowest point in the year for Caterham sales at present, though - if you wait until spring you'll find that the number of cars being advertised rises sharply.
Caterham themselves deal in second-hand cars, and there are a handful of specialist dealers (people like Millwood Caterham, just round the corner from where I live in South Gloucestershire, Woodcote Sportscars etc.), and some classic Lotus specialists also sell the occasional car (Paul Matty Sportscars, for exmaple, if you want someone you can trust, or UK Sportscars if you like a gamble) but PistonHeads classifieds is as good a source as any.
Remember that we're at the lowest point in the year for Caterham sales at present, though - if you wait until spring you'll find that the number of cars being advertised rises sharply.
The spins were probably caused by the way you were driving - if you have driven mainly front wheel drive cars and ones where the throttle is electronically moderated, the instant response from the rear end to over-enthusiastic application of the throttle in slippy conditions can lead to a spin, even in a straight line. If the BAT R300 had an LSD fitted then this will not have helped either.
You WILL get used to this very quickly because:
a) you won't drive on the road like you are on the track - too much to hit!
b) sitting between the rear wheels, it is very easy to tell when the back starts to go, enabling you to catch it before it gets away from you.
A wet trackday is an excellent way to learn all of this in a safe way...
Steve
You WILL get used to this very quickly because:
a) you won't drive on the road like you are on the track - too much to hit!
b) sitting between the rear wheels, it is very easy to tell when the back starts to go, enabling you to catch it before it gets away from you.
A wet trackday is an excellent way to learn all of this in a safe way...
Steve
A couple of thoughts...
Now I'm quite used to oversteer antics, the R500 I had at the time would give me the back end out on demand, but I always knew it was coming. The R300 wasn't as friendly.
All probably irrelevant to the debate in the thread, but it reminded me of what I found at the time.
Bert
James.S said:
PS the 300 is an awesome car, best of the cars offered by Caterham at the moment for road or track.
Don't be put off with the spins, it will be your inputs rather than the car, once you have learned the technique you will be astounded by how fast a 300 will go in the wet.
Are you thinking of the kr300 or the dr300?Don't be put off with the spins, it will be your inputs rather than the car, once you have learned the technique you will be astounded by how fast a 300 will go in the wet.
sjmmarsh said:
The spins were probably caused by the way you were driving - if you have driven mainly front wheel drive cars and ones where the throttle is electronically moderated, the instant response from the rear end to over-enthusiastic application of the throttle in slippy conditions can lead to a spin, even in a straight line. If the BAT R300 had an LSD fitted then this will not have helped either.
I test drove an early kr300 (RBTBs not VVC) on the road (wet) and I found it a bit unsettling. I didn't have time to get to the bottom of it, but I found it unpredictably twitchy. I could easily have seen me spinning it on track.Now I'm quite used to oversteer antics, the R500 I had at the time would give me the back end out on demand, but I always knew it was coming. The R300 wasn't as friendly.
All probably irrelevant to the debate in the thread, but it reminded me of what I found at the time.
Bert
We get our cars from Nick at Caterham Midlands and we run high spec Supersports as a good balanced road package. K series has served us well and IMHO suits the car. Our mate Andrew who runs another hire co in Scotland has run Sigmas and K series and is going bck to all K series cars - read into that what you will.
We also have two supersports both really high spec but the character of each is very different. Suggests to me that you really need to try quite a few and see what feels right. Very easy to get blown awat by the first one you try.
Best of luck. Have dropped you an email.
Scott.
We also have two supersports both really high spec but the character of each is very different. Suggests to me that you really need to try quite a few and see what feels right. Very easy to get blown awat by the first one you try.
Best of luck. Have dropped you an email.
Scott.
BertBert said:
A couple of thoughts...
Bert
OP had been out in one of BAT's R300's. They are all 2010 spec Superlight R300 Duratec race cars. One of them won a round of the R300 challenge at Spa with over 180hrs on the engine.....can't remember the drivers name though...Bit of an odd looking fellow I seem to recall, had a facination with choclate cheese.James.S said:
PS the 300 is an awesome car, best of the cars offered by Caterham at the moment for road or track.
Don't be put off with the spins, it will be your inputs rather than the car, once you have learned the technique you will be astounded by how fast a 300 will go in the wet.
Are you thinking of the kr300 or the dr300?Don't be put off with the spins, it will be your inputs rather than the car, once you have learned the technique you will be astounded by how fast a 300 will go in the wet.
Bert
Edited by James.S on Monday 11th January 14:09
Chris71 said:
(as in, a third less when I bought mine...)
crikey - the going rate for a Superlight of 1998 vintage is circa £14k - given that, you must've bought yours for about £4,500 - that is cracking value!I do echo the advice to buy a lower powered car though. But there are a lot of ex racecars out there for sale at any given time and they sell on price and price alone. There are fewer SLs there and as they come with everything you'd want bar dry sump as standard, if your budget stretches to £14k, find an SL, learn how to drive it for a year, sell it on for the same money very quickly (they don't hang around) and then move to a higher powered car.
James.S said:
BertBert said:
A couple of thoughts...
Bert
OP had been out in one of BAT's R300's. They are all 2010 spec Superlight R300 Duratec race cars. One of them won a round of the R300 challenge at Spa with over 180hrs on the engine.....can't remember the drivers name though...Bit of an odd looking fellow I seem to recall, had a facination with choclate cheese.James.S said:
PS the 300 is an awesome car, best of the cars offered by Caterham at the moment for road or track.
Don't be put off with the spins, it will be your inputs rather than the car, once you have learned the technique you will be astounded by how fast a 300 will go in the wet.
Are you thinking of the kr300 or the dr300?Don't be put off with the spins, it will be your inputs rather than the car, once you have learned the technique you will be astounded by how fast a 300 will go in the wet.
Bert
Edited by James.S on Monday 11th January 14:09
For some reason I want the DR300 to be the best caterham I have owned (over my ex-1600 exec superlight). Trouble is I've got to buy one for that to happen and I am too much of a cheapskate to buy new! I reckon I'll have to wait a couple of years for some used cars to be on the market at cheapskate prices. Although maybe the batr300s will be for sale by then!
BErt
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