Can I have an opinion on this please?
Discussion
Right, I think I may be about to buy a Caterham. I did a whistle-stop tour of the South East yesterday and the climax of it was a trip to Caterham South. Where I saw this:
http://www.caterham.co.uk/assets/html/preowned/pre...
I had set my budget at an absolute maximum of £14,000 but the spec on this is pretty compelling, including Supersport engine, 6-speed 'box, limited slip diff, uprated brakes, track day roll bar, anti-cavitation tank, wide track suspension, MSA cut off and various other bits. It drives superbly and I was really impressed with the way the revvy 1.6 went with the 6 speed box, plus it wasn't as buzzy as expected at a modest motorway speed. I've now driven the 1.6-K with and with both gearboxes and the 1.8 with the six speed and the Supersport 1.6 with the close ratio box is my favourite.
It is an ex-Caterham Experience car, but it's been very thuroughly overhauled including having the chassis taken back to bare metal by Arch and powder coated. Every single component has been removed, checked and re-installed and a good deal is new. Given the spec, and the fact it's factory built, for sale by the factory and the work has been done by the factory I reckon that makes up for the presumably hard life previously(?) and the relatively high price. With standard 1.6 Roadsports going for within a grand of that price at the moment, something that has several thousand pounds worth of options and falls pretty much exactly to my ideal spec (barring the colour!) sounds pretty good. Condition wise, there's a bit of wear to the passenger seat and a little bit of scuffing on the carbon fibre trim on the left hand sill and that's really about it. Newly resprayed too.
Excuse the waffle, but this is by far the most I've ever spent on a car (by getting on for 3:1) so I want to be sure! It seems like a lot of Superlight for the money, when you take into account the full spec and the scope of the rebuild - full chassis restoration and respray puts it quite close to a fresh factory build.
http://www.caterham.co.uk/assets/html/preowned/pre...
I had set my budget at an absolute maximum of £14,000 but the spec on this is pretty compelling, including Supersport engine, 6-speed 'box, limited slip diff, uprated brakes, track day roll bar, anti-cavitation tank, wide track suspension, MSA cut off and various other bits. It drives superbly and I was really impressed with the way the revvy 1.6 went with the 6 speed box, plus it wasn't as buzzy as expected at a modest motorway speed. I've now driven the 1.6-K with and with both gearboxes and the 1.8 with the six speed and the Supersport 1.6 with the close ratio box is my favourite.
It is an ex-Caterham Experience car, but it's been very thuroughly overhauled including having the chassis taken back to bare metal by Arch and powder coated. Every single component has been removed, checked and re-installed and a good deal is new. Given the spec, and the fact it's factory built, for sale by the factory and the work has been done by the factory I reckon that makes up for the presumably hard life previously(?) and the relatively high price. With standard 1.6 Roadsports going for within a grand of that price at the moment, something that has several thousand pounds worth of options and falls pretty much exactly to my ideal spec (barring the colour!) sounds pretty good. Condition wise, there's a bit of wear to the passenger seat and a little bit of scuffing on the carbon fibre trim on the left hand sill and that's really about it. Newly resprayed too.
Excuse the waffle, but this is by far the most I've ever spent on a car (by getting on for 3:1) so I want to be sure! It seems like a lot of Superlight for the money, when you take into account the full spec and the scope of the rebuild - full chassis restoration and respray puts it quite close to a fresh factory build.
Chris,
Hi I was at Panshanger on Weds night, there is this car http://www.blatchat.com/t.asp?id=171428 on blatchat in Redbourn, I know nothing about the car but just posting another advert up for you that might be of interest.
Richard
Hi I was at Panshanger on Weds night, there is this car http://www.blatchat.com/t.asp?id=171428 on blatchat in Redbourn, I know nothing about the car but just posting another advert up for you that might be of interest.
Richard
If it is a genuine numbered Superlight and if they really have repowdercoated the chassis, then I think it could be worth it. Note that the powdercoating in 1996 was awful. As someone else has said, it isn't cheap for a Superlight of that vintage. How many miles has it covered and is there evidence of any rebuild work on the engine? Also check that the 6 speed 'box is a good one - lots of thrashing it in lower gears could have worn it put prematurely. Make sure you can't beat the synchros and also that the throw is nice and precise with just acceptable slack in the change and a clearly defined gate. The quality of the 6 speed 'boxes does vary though. Some have real "snickety" changes, others are not so precise.
Snapper7 said:
Strange that there is no Superlight Plaque on the dash, My superlight minilight wheels were painted black, i thought all superlight had the black wheels but I could be wrong.
I would agree on the powder coating issues raised and given the cars age I thing that it is a bit expensive
Our Superlight has its plaque in the engine bay but the R500 has it on the dash - I guess it's up to whoever built it as to where they stuck it I would agree on the powder coating issues raised and given the cars age I thing that it is a bit expensive
It is an expensive car for one 11 years old. However if it is in as-new condition, it might be money well spent.
Can you tell us more about the history? How come it was a caterham experience car and one owner? They didn't own it for 11 years did they?
Who did all the refurb work? Is it documented? Is there evidence of engine/gearbox refreshes? Something feels missing from your description of the history.
Bert
Can you tell us more about the history? How come it was a caterham experience car and one owner? They didn't own it for 11 years did they?
Who did all the refurb work? Is it documented? Is there evidence of engine/gearbox refreshes? Something feels missing from your description of the history.
Bert
BertBert said:
Who did all the refurb work? Is it documented? Is there evidence of engine/gearbox refreshes? Something feels missing from your description of the history.
The work was done at Caterham, apart from the chassis work - including new powder coating, which was done at Arch. The six speed box felt good to me and it drove very nicely. It's possible the dash is new maybe if there's a plaque missing, but as far as I'm aware it's a factory built, factory sold Superlight. The odometer reads something like 2,000 miles after a change, but I'm told the total mileage is 'thought to be well under 10,000' with that given in the ad to air on conservative side. Specific details of the engine and gearbox refresh were pretty sketchy - I was just told that every thing was taken off the chassis and anything showing any signs of wear was replaced for a new or reconditioned item.
The spec is the main attraction. For track work I'd really like a decent roll bar, a limited slip diff and the anti-cavitation tank. I've yet to see more than one of those on the same car within my price range, let alone all three on a fully loaded Supersport spec 6-speed Superlight. I looked at a very average 120hp 1.8 car with the base spec (no LSD, road roll bar, no anti-cav tank, normal track, normal brakes etc) and comparable mileage for a £1,000 less.
I'm sure it's stirring, but I was also told that Caterham keep a close eye on the cars up for sale privately and buy up anything that's worth while. There was some scare mongering about the condition of some of the cars on PH and things like that, which may or may not be true, but the general standard at the factory did seem pretty high.
I don't know. The thing is, is looking back through old adverts I've never seen one that so closely matches my ideal spec (barring the colour!) and to look at and to drive it did feel like a recently rebuilt car. I suspect I could regret it if I let that one go - and possibly spend more in the long run retrofitting LSDs and such like - but only having looked at a hanful it's difficult to be 100% sure.
Basically Caterham are no different from any car dealership. They buy at the right price for them and sell at the right price for them. I've loked at some horrible cars there and some very nice ones, some keenly priced cars and some downright expensive cars.
They are a bit vague with their comments on the car you are looking at, esp re the mileage - did they refresh the engine and 'box then? I'd doubt it with mileqage of sub 10k. If you can speak to the previous owner, I would.
A Superlight has all the right bits and you are correct in trying to find a car with those bits on it rather than speccing up a car. If this car ticks all your boxes, why care about whether you are paying over the odds for it - just buy it and enjoy it!
I'm presuming this car has the correct carbon bits? front/rear wings and nosecone? The experience/trackday cars often don't have these bits...they were all standard on the Superlight.
They are a bit vague with their comments on the car you are looking at, esp re the mileage - did they refresh the engine and 'box then? I'd doubt it with mileqage of sub 10k. If you can speak to the previous owner, I would.
A Superlight has all the right bits and you are correct in trying to find a car with those bits on it rather than speccing up a car. If this car ticks all your boxes, why care about whether you are paying over the odds for it - just buy it and enjoy it!
I'm presuming this car has the correct carbon bits? front/rear wings and nosecone? The experience/trackday cars often don't have these bits...they were all standard on the Superlight.
I will double check but IIRC the only previous owner is Caterham. Not sure about the wings - there's certainly plenty of carbon on the car (the scratch plates of whatever you want to call them on the rear mudguards for example) and it's definitely considered by Caterham to be a Superlight and seems to have all the right bits mechanically.
Have to say, I don't think the price is too bad. On my travels I've seen a privately advertised Roadpsort of the same vintage with bits of powder coating hanging off to reveal horribly rusty chassis tubes underneath. Yes, there is a difference, but the price premium for this Superlight would be worth it on condition alone if that example's representative. The 'Caterham' one effectively has a new chassis. Likewise, it feels as taught as any I've driven and they weren't all like that; one example felt distinctly sloppy and underdamped. It's by far the best cosmetically too (ignoring the damn colour!) - I haven't seen an original car which looks freshly sprayed, although that's a minor point.
Looking at the PH classifieds (and if you believe them, that's something Caterham do pretty often) there's:
An apparenly smart and slightly newer Superlight to the same spec with marginally higher mileage for the same price, but that's selling privately (without the same level of comeback) at the other end of the country; A nice looking 1800 K-Series for private sale at £12,500, but it's a base spec 5-speed Roadsport without the toys and I found I really prefered the combination of Supersport 1600 and 6-speed box to any other configuration; A Roadsport of similar age, but with quite a few upgrades at £13,995, but it's three times the mileage and still doesn't have a 6 speed 'box or LSD; A very low mileage (3,000mi), slightly newer, 1600 Superlight with similar spec, but that's £17,500; An older Supersport of the same mileage, but only a 1.4-litre car without toys for sale for the same price; A similar spec, slightly newer Superlight for £13,950, but it's three times the mileage and presumably hasn't just been subject to a thurough chassis off rebuild from the factory... So it may be a tad high, but it doesn't seem unrealistic given it's a factory (i.e. main dealer) sale with a recent refurb?
Not trying to argue for the car, but the market is quite strong at the moment it seems and perhaps that price is easier to justify now than it would have been a while back? Also now I've seen underneath a car peppered with rust and peeled powder coating the fact that this one's been taken back to the metal and tidied/protected is quite reassuring.
Have to say, I don't think the price is too bad. On my travels I've seen a privately advertised Roadpsort of the same vintage with bits of powder coating hanging off to reveal horribly rusty chassis tubes underneath. Yes, there is a difference, but the price premium for this Superlight would be worth it on condition alone if that example's representative. The 'Caterham' one effectively has a new chassis. Likewise, it feels as taught as any I've driven and they weren't all like that; one example felt distinctly sloppy and underdamped. It's by far the best cosmetically too (ignoring the damn colour!) - I haven't seen an original car which looks freshly sprayed, although that's a minor point.
Looking at the PH classifieds (and if you believe them, that's something Caterham do pretty often) there's:
An apparenly smart and slightly newer Superlight to the same spec with marginally higher mileage for the same price, but that's selling privately (without the same level of comeback) at the other end of the country; A nice looking 1800 K-Series for private sale at £12,500, but it's a base spec 5-speed Roadsport without the toys and I found I really prefered the combination of Supersport 1600 and 6-speed box to any other configuration; A Roadsport of similar age, but with quite a few upgrades at £13,995, but it's three times the mileage and still doesn't have a 6 speed 'box or LSD; A very low mileage (3,000mi), slightly newer, 1600 Superlight with similar spec, but that's £17,500; An older Supersport of the same mileage, but only a 1.4-litre car without toys for sale for the same price; A similar spec, slightly newer Superlight for £13,950, but it's three times the mileage and presumably hasn't just been subject to a thurough chassis off rebuild from the factory... So it may be a tad high, but it doesn't seem unrealistic given it's a factory (i.e. main dealer) sale with a recent refurb?
Not trying to argue for the car, but the market is quite strong at the moment it seems and perhaps that price is easier to justify now than it would have been a while back? Also now I've seen underneath a car peppered with rust and peeled powder coating the fact that this one's been taken back to the metal and tidied/protected is quite reassuring.
Edited by Chris71 on Sunday 7th June 20:53
If all the work's been done by Caterham, and the car has only ever been owned by them, why are they so vague on how many miles it's done, exactly what work was done etc?
They know better than anyone how important these details can be to preserve the value of their asset, so why can't they just hand over a raft of documentation for you to pore over and coo at?
It may well be a good car, but I'd be wanting some answers.
I'm also not keen on car salesman who dis' other cars unprompted. Unprofessional, and not exactly selling you on THEIR car's own assets, is it.
They know better than anyone how important these details can be to preserve the value of their asset, so why can't they just hand over a raft of documentation for you to pore over and coo at?
It may well be a good car, but I'd be wanting some answers.
I'm also not keen on car salesman who dis' other cars unprompted. Unprofessional, and not exactly selling you on THEIR car's own assets, is it.
sounds like it could be one of the ex-palmersport cars then. if so, Caterham will have spent a *lot* on the car (cosmetically and mechanically) and it'll be more like a new car by now. i would actually question their logic if that's what's they've done - that car must have had at least £5-6K spent on it since leaving palmersport.
as always - buy on condition, but sounds to me like a nice spec, tidy car at sensible money from a known-good source.
history on a car that old is nothing like as important as current condition IMO.
Jonny
BaT
as always - buy on condition, but sounds to me like a nice spec, tidy car at sensible money from a known-good source.
history on a car that old is nothing like as important as current condition IMO.
Jonny
BaT
Don't think it's a Caterham experience car. I did an experience day 2 years ago. They were using roadsports then which were due to be retired, they change them out every three years.
Is it a genuine numbered superlight or been rebuilt to superlight spec? If it's not a numbered car it will put some buyers off come resale time. Personally I'd want to do a bit more digging on the history before paying that kind of premium.
Is it a genuine numbered superlight or been rebuilt to superlight spec? If it's not a numbered car it will put some buyers off come resale time. Personally I'd want to do a bit more digging on the history before paying that kind of premium.
If it's a genuine Superlight the 7th digit of the VIN number should be L. It's hard to tell from the photos, but the cycle wings 'seem' to be yellow GRP rather than carbon and the band on the nose looks like black paint rather than the usual exposed carbon.
Nothing at all wrong with the mechanical spec, but if it's not a genuine Superlight then you are paying through the nose. I have a 1600 Supersport with all the same mechanical bits and I paid a lot less than £14,995 for it.
Nothing at all wrong with the mechanical spec, but if it's not a genuine Superlight then you are paying through the nose. I have a 1600 Supersport with all the same mechanical bits and I paid a lot less than £14,995 for it.
What I have found out so far is that it was factory built with new components. It's only ever been owned by Caterham and only ever used for their Experience events. The confusion about the mileage is apparently due to it being used for sometime with no speedo in between the original one failing and the new one being fitted. Apparently there's no official record, but it's thought to be 'well under 10,000'.
Caterham are (hopefully) going to give me a complete list of the work done providing the person coming to view the car this morning doesn't buy it. Apart from that it only comes with a V5 and a service record, but that doesn't sound unreasonable. Between the three I should find out what's new/refurbished/old, the exact extent of the work, when the oil changes etc. were carried out and double check it is registered as a legitimate Superlight.
Also asked about the spec. He thinks the wings etc. are carbon fibre and the car is all full Superlight spec but needs to confirm. So, I guess I'll wait to see what happens.
Caterham are (hopefully) going to give me a complete list of the work done providing the person coming to view the car this morning doesn't buy it. Apart from that it only comes with a V5 and a service record, but that doesn't sound unreasonable. Between the three I should find out what's new/refurbished/old, the exact extent of the work, when the oil changes etc. were carried out and double check it is registered as a legitimate Superlight.
Also asked about the spec. He thinks the wings etc. are carbon fibre and the car is all full Superlight spec but needs to confirm. So, I guess I'll wait to see what happens.
Sounds like it is virtually a new car and has a lot of the bits I mentioned earlier. Check the enigne and box has been refreshed (I am sure it must have been after redoing chassis etc.), but other than that it sounds pretty good.
The way you are talking you sound like you are almost there anyway!
The way you are talking you sound like you are almost there anyway!
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