Caterham questions - advice please!
Discussion
Sod it. I'm about 90% sure I'm going for one. Friendlier at the limit than an Elise, bags more character (not to mention pace) than an MX5 and I'll just conveniently gloss over the matter of weather protection and cheaper clones!
I thought seems the last thread was theoretically about ex-Academy cars only (before rapidly digressing) I'd open up a new one. So, to recap, the idea is a car for about a 50:50 mix of track days, club sprints and B-road blasts (ok, a 33:33:33 mix). I have a few specific questions:
Any other general advice welcome too.
I thought seems the last thread was theoretically about ex-Academy cars only (before rapidly digressing) I'd open up a new one. So, to recap, the idea is a car for about a 50:50 mix of track days, club sprints and B-road blasts (ok, a 33:33:33 mix). I have a few specific questions:
- Can anyone explain roughly what the features of the various models are? I'm looking at those up to about £13k and even at that level there's a bewildering array of Roadsports, Sprints, Sevens, HPCs etc.
- What are the pros and cons of the various engines - not a crossflow fan, so basically thinking the different Vauxhall and Rover offerings I guess?
- Linked to the above - and this is quite important - can anyone give me an idea of noise levels from the various different configurations? I'm aiming to pass the 98dB limit at Bedford.
- Any other reason why one model would be better suited to track days and/or sprints than another?
- What's parts availability like? Are there any models which are particularly badly or well supported in that respect?
- Are they easy to work on? Any difficult jobs?
- If I come across something I can't do myself, are there any specialists in the North London/Herts area who could help?
- What are they like for things like ground clearance - are bumpy B-roads likely to be a danger to the sump or anything? Also, while I'm being sensible, are there any differences in weather gear and such like?
Any other general advice welcome too.
Chris71 said:
- Can anyone explain roughly what the features of the various models are? I'm looking at those up to about £13k and even at that level there's a bewildering array of Roadsports, Sprints, Sevens, HPCs etc.
- What are the pros and cons of the various engines - not a crossflow fan, so basically thinking the different Vauxhall and Rover offerings I guess?
- Linked to the above - and this is quite important - can anyone give me an idea of noise levels from the various different configurations? I'm aiming to pass the 98dB limit at Bedford.
- Any other reason why one model would be better suited to track days and/or sprints than another?
- What's parts availability like? Are there any models which are particularly badly or well supported in that respect?
- Are they easy to work on? Any difficult jobs?
- If I come across something I can't do myself, are there any specialists in the North London/Herts area who could help?
- What are they like for things like ground clearance - are bumpy B-roads likely to be a danger to the sump or anything? Also, while I'm being sensible, are there any differences in weather gear and such like?
They're not too hard to work on, but some of the production engineering appears to have been done by someone who would have difficulty recognising a spanner... Some jobs require a lot of disassembly to get a the bit you want to remove/replace (propshaft, starter, etc)
In terms of grounds clearance, no matter wet or dry sump, I'd personally strongly recommend some form of sump protection. This will need to be homemade, as no one sells a commercial product to do the job.
Parts availability is generally good with lots of suppliers offering parts which Caterham supply at lower prices and several specialist manufacturers offering upgrade items at sensible prices.
There are numerous 'specialists' for various bits of the car:
g/box & diff : Phil @ Road and Race transmissions
Engines: try either Dave @ DVA power (K series) or QED (Vauxhall)
Chassis: Phil Squance @ Caged (newer chassis), Bruce @ Arch (Older chassis and bronze welded repairs)
Setup: Any one of the numerous race teams out there
Suspension: Guy @ Nitron, Gary @ Freestyle (Avo supplier)
Make sure you take someone who's familiar WITH THE CONFIGURATION ON THE CAR YOU'RE LOOKING AT, not just someone who happens to own a Caterham when you go to look at cars. Decide whether mechanical condition is more important to you (bearing in mind you inteneded use) than a carbon clad machine where the paintwork has seen more attention than the mechanicals....
Good luck!
fergus said:
Make sure you take someone who's familiar WITH THE CONFIGURATION ON THE CAR YOU'RE LOOKING AT, not just someone who happens to own a Caterham when you go to look at cars. Decide whether mechanical condition is more important to you (bearing in mind you inteneded use) than a carbon clad machine where the paintwork has seen more attention than the mechanicals....
No debate there. I plan to use it quite enthusiastically, so I don't really want to pay a premium for cosmetics. Don't get me wrong, part of the appeal of the Caterham is that they're a nicer 'thing' than the replicas, but at the same time I'd rather pay for mechanical/structural condition than bling.As a guess I'd say I'm looking at one of the more affordable De Dion cars with a K-Series or Vauxhall engine in.
Are there any Caterham owners in the area (North London/Herts) who'd be up for sharing some knowledge and maybe taking me for a passenger ride? I have been in them before and I'm reasonably mechanically competent, but it'd be good to get an idea what to expect.
The sump guard comment is interesting. I used to ground my TVR quite regularly on the lanes, but fortunately it had been designed for such things and there was a very chunky box section which went around the lowest part of the exhaust. Obviously that's not a problem with a side exit exhaust, but it does raise the rather worrying possibility of landing on something more expensive!
I'm sure if you turn up to one of the Lotus 7 Club area meetings you'll get plenty of opportunities to check out the various models and get some passenger rides.
ewenm said:
I'm sure if you turn up to one of the Lotus 7 Club area meetings you'll get plenty of opportunities to check out the various models and get some passenger rides.
Cheers, just emailed the guy who organises the local meet tomorrow.I'm in Hemel Hempstead and I'd be happy to take you for a spin. I have raced and sprinted a bit too and done a fair few track days so if you want to discuss options I'd be happy to give you the benefit of my prejudices! Admittedly my experience is limited to K series cars though.
Also I have done a few geo set ups if you want to get your hands dirty in due course.
Also I have done a few geo set ups if you want to get your hands dirty in due course.
Edited by MarchHare on Tuesday 2nd June 16:20
If you are interested in sprinting, the Lotus 7 Club has a popular championship.
All Caterhams (and Lotus 7s) are catered for, but some engine/tyre combos are
more competetive than others... Look at blatchat under "Club Speed Events" for more
info. For 98 dB, you might want to look for a new or larger than standard silencer,
preferably repackable. At 13K, you are probably looking at a 1.6 or 1.8 rover K,
which is a popular choice for sprinting. Other things on my wish list for a sprinting
oriented car would be 6 speed box, LSD, adjustable spring platforms, adjustable dampers,
widetrack front suspension. All these can be added later, but the first two
are expensive upgrades.
Good luck!
All Caterhams (and Lotus 7s) are catered for, but some engine/tyre combos are
more competetive than others... Look at blatchat under "Club Speed Events" for more
info. For 98 dB, you might want to look for a new or larger than standard silencer,
preferably repackable. At 13K, you are probably looking at a 1.6 or 1.8 rover K,
which is a popular choice for sprinting. Other things on my wish list for a sprinting
oriented car would be 6 speed box, LSD, adjustable spring platforms, adjustable dampers,
widetrack front suspension. All these can be added later, but the first two
are expensive upgrades.
Good luck!
MarchHare said:
I'm in Hemel Hempstead and I'd be happy to take you for a spin. I have raced and sprinted a bit too and done a fair few track days so if you want to discuss options I'd be happy to give you the benefit of my prejudices! Admittedly my experience is limited to K series cars though.
Also I have done a few geo set ups if you want to get your hands dirty in due course.
Hi,Also I have done a few geo set ups if you want to get your hands dirty in due course.
Sounds like a plan! I'll drop you a PM shortly. I don't suppose you're going to the Lotus Seven Club meet near Welwyn tomorrow?
Chris
PS What do people think of this one? http://pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1056246.htm
Haven't dipped into the used prices of Caterham recently and they it has been a difficult few months to firmly value things.
That said I reckon you might get a Superlight for that kind of price, although you might have to stretch just a little bit further. A K-Series Superlight will be perfect for this kind of use for several reasons. The original Superlight was one of the key Caterhams that took the company up a notch and were liked by the press and customers/the club. That sought of age of one, will have Limited Slip Diff (very desirable) for your use, 6-speed box (essential), AP racing front brakes (bigger calipers vented disks), carbon wings and nosecone (some will have had these replaced over time), usually 13" wheels (all the best tyres come in 13" sizes), no spare wheel. Most will have Tillet type seats (glassfibre shell seats, which are very light and comfortable), but leather seats were an option. Harnesses were standard and obviously essential for your use. Widetrack suspension and adjustable spring platforms at the front make it a very complete car.
Originally they won't have had windscreen, weather gear or a heater. Many have had these added at the time or at a later date, but you can always fit an interchangeable aeroscreen to maximise performance and thrills on the track/sprints. Aeroscreen driving is awesome, but good to put the screen on for longer journeys (unless you are really hardcore).
For club events you will need an FIA rollover bar (identifiable by an extra cross bar or X-shape in the middle of the main bar). To be honest this is sensible if you are going to be regularly tracking it. You definitely need an Anti-Cavitation oil tank as a minimum to increase oil capacity and remove bubbles from the crank whipping up the oil. The step beyond is a dry sump system, but these were rarely fitted to Superlights.
Vauxhall XE 2.0 litres will be in this price range, but almost none would have come as standard with the right bits. They can be upgraded to be nimble and quick, but the extra weight of the engine means they are more prone to understeer with the standard suspension.
If you will want to upgrade in the future then it is best to keep it standard (and retain the value) and buy a different car. Upgrading various bits can be fun and is very popular, but it does limit your market come resale time. Caterham won't buy back any cars that have significant upgrades done that don't come from them.
Academy cars are another option, they get cages and adjustable spring platforms on later ones. The interior is stripped, no spare wheel, but also no passenger seat as standard. Car will obviously have been raced, but will be significantly newer than the Superlight. Academy cars have 5 speed boxes, open diffs and smaller brakes as standard, but some will have had some upgrade after leaving the championship.
That said I reckon you might get a Superlight for that kind of price, although you might have to stretch just a little bit further. A K-Series Superlight will be perfect for this kind of use for several reasons. The original Superlight was one of the key Caterhams that took the company up a notch and were liked by the press and customers/the club. That sought of age of one, will have Limited Slip Diff (very desirable) for your use, 6-speed box (essential), AP racing front brakes (bigger calipers vented disks), carbon wings and nosecone (some will have had these replaced over time), usually 13" wheels (all the best tyres come in 13" sizes), no spare wheel. Most will have Tillet type seats (glassfibre shell seats, which are very light and comfortable), but leather seats were an option. Harnesses were standard and obviously essential for your use. Widetrack suspension and adjustable spring platforms at the front make it a very complete car.
Originally they won't have had windscreen, weather gear or a heater. Many have had these added at the time or at a later date, but you can always fit an interchangeable aeroscreen to maximise performance and thrills on the track/sprints. Aeroscreen driving is awesome, but good to put the screen on for longer journeys (unless you are really hardcore).
For club events you will need an FIA rollover bar (identifiable by an extra cross bar or X-shape in the middle of the main bar). To be honest this is sensible if you are going to be regularly tracking it. You definitely need an Anti-Cavitation oil tank as a minimum to increase oil capacity and remove bubbles from the crank whipping up the oil. The step beyond is a dry sump system, but these were rarely fitted to Superlights.
Vauxhall XE 2.0 litres will be in this price range, but almost none would have come as standard with the right bits. They can be upgraded to be nimble and quick, but the extra weight of the engine means they are more prone to understeer with the standard suspension.
If you will want to upgrade in the future then it is best to keep it standard (and retain the value) and buy a different car. Upgrading various bits can be fun and is very popular, but it does limit your market come resale time. Caterham won't buy back any cars that have significant upgrades done that don't come from them.
Academy cars are another option, they get cages and adjustable spring platforms on later ones. The interior is stripped, no spare wheel, but also no passenger seat as standard. Car will obviously have been raced, but will be significantly newer than the Superlight. Academy cars have 5 speed boxes, open diffs and smaller brakes as standard, but some will have had some upgrade after leaving the championship.
Thanks. I think £13k or thereabouts is the absolute maximum. I was originally hoping to spend single figures, but for reasons I'm still not entirely sure about I've found myself quite taken with the Seven so might venture into the low teens.
Incidentally, when did Caterham start fitting them with cats? I believe I'll need one for MSA events?
I'm told the 2-litre Vauxhall is quite noisey (and so possibly an issue on track days), what about the 1.6 Vauxhall? Is that a good engine in general? It seems to be quite popular in my sort of price range.
Anyone know of any issue insuring the ex-Academy cars or getting them accepted into a standard road going kit class in sprints?
Off to take a look at some examples tonight - just at the local club meet nothing for sale, but hopefully it'll give me a point of reference.
Incidentally, when did Caterham start fitting them with cats? I believe I'll need one for MSA events?
I'm told the 2-litre Vauxhall is quite noisey (and so possibly an issue on track days), what about the 1.6 Vauxhall? Is that a good engine in general? It seems to be quite popular in my sort of price range.
Anyone know of any issue insuring the ex-Academy cars or getting them accepted into a standard road going kit class in sprints?
Off to take a look at some examples tonight - just at the local club meet nothing for sale, but hopefully it'll give me a point of reference.
I personally couldn’t recommend the 1.6 Vauxhall for the use you describe. It is much slower than K-Series or 2.0 XE Vauxhalls. It doesn’t like high revs and they are fitted with live axles, not De-Dion suspension. They also have none of the tasty bits like big brakes, LSD, 6 speed etc. in fact the brakes aren’t as good as the De-Dion cars due to the Marina drums on the rear.
The 2.0 litre Vauxhalls make a nice noise on carbs (most will have carbs though a later ones were injection), but that might lead to problems with quieter tracks/sprint courses.
K-Series more economical than either and that is actually quite nice on track where you don’t’ want to be refilling regularly if you can help it!
The 2.0 litre Vauxhalls make a nice noise on carbs (most will have carbs though a later ones were injection), but that might lead to problems with quieter tracks/sprint courses.
K-Series more economical than either and that is actually quite nice on track where you don’t’ want to be refilling regularly if you can help it!
Thanks, K-Series sounds like the way forward.
Can't deny being rather taken by this 1.6 Vauxhall though:
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1056246.htm
That is just a gorgeous little car!
Whilst I'm throwing adverts around, this one cropped up to (1.8 K-Series):
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1067796.htm
Out of interest, do the K-Series engined cars suffer from the same head gasket issues in this installation as they do elsewhwere?
ETA: Are there any other good places to check for Caterhams for sale?
Oh, and one other thing. Are carpets usually fitted? To be honest I'd rather not have them in a car with relatively basic weather gear, but depedns what's out there.
Thanks for your patience guys. Most of these are the best part of twice what I've ever spent on a car before, so you can appreciate I want to go in with my eyes open!
Can't deny being rather taken by this 1.6 Vauxhall though:
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1056246.htm
That is just a gorgeous little car!
Whilst I'm throwing adverts around, this one cropped up to (1.8 K-Series):
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1067796.htm
Out of interest, do the K-Series engined cars suffer from the same head gasket issues in this installation as they do elsewhwere?
ETA: Are there any other good places to check for Caterhams for sale?
Oh, and one other thing. Are carpets usually fitted? To be honest I'd rather not have them in a car with relatively basic weather gear, but depedns what's out there.
Thanks for your patience guys. Most of these are the best part of twice what I've ever spent on a car before, so you can appreciate I want to go in with my eyes open!
Edited by Chris71 on Wednesday 3rd June 12:45
Chris71 said:
Thanks, K-Series sounds like the way forward.
Can't deny being rather taken by this 1.6 Vauxhall though:
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1056246.htm
That is just a gorgeous little car!
Whilst I'm throwing adverts around, this one cropped up to (1.8 K-Series):
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1067796.htm
Out of interest, do the K-Series engined cars suffer from the same head gasket issues in this installation as they do elsewhwere?
Oh, and one other thing. Are carpets usually fitted? To be honest I'd rather not have them in a car with relatively basic weather gear, but depedns what's out there.
Thanks for your patience guys. Most of these are the best part of twice what I've ever spent on a car before, so you can appreciate I want to go in with my eyes open!
Hi, I'm no expert, but my dad's got a roadsport k-series 1.8 (see profile pic)Can't deny being rather taken by this 1.6 Vauxhall though:
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1056246.htm
That is just a gorgeous little car!
Whilst I'm throwing adverts around, this one cropped up to (1.8 K-Series):
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1067796.htm
Out of interest, do the K-Series engined cars suffer from the same head gasket issues in this installation as they do elsewhwere?
Oh, and one other thing. Are carpets usually fitted? To be honest I'd rather not have them in a car with relatively basic weather gear, but depedns what's out there.
Thanks for your patience guys. Most of these are the best part of twice what I've ever spent on a car before, so you can appreciate I want to go in with my eyes open!
The 1.6 does look nice, and has more power, but I believe that the 1.8 has much more potential for upgrade in the future. I also believe that 120bhp would be plenty for a while as it will still be a big step up from an mx5.
I think that the k-series is fine in this state of tune, so long as you get a good one and look after it well.
Carpets come fitted to the roadsport, but on Superlights and similar they have thin rubber matts instead.
HTH
George
GFWilliams said:
I also believe that 120bhp would be plenty for a while as it will still be a big step up from an mx5.
I think that the k-series is fine in this state of tune, so long as you get a good one and look after it well.
Haven't driven an MX5 in over 3 years. I think that the k-series is fine in this state of tune, so long as you get a good one and look after it well.
But, yes, I get the point - 120hp will still be good fun in a car that's, what, 550kg? The closest I've come was my Sylva Leader which was about 140hp and 650kg.
On that note though, how much price difference should I expect between a 120hp 1.8 K-Series and the 140? How simple is it to upgrade the car at a later date if needed?
Edited by Chris71 on Wednesday 3rd June 13:12
Chris71 said:
Out of interest, do the K-Series engined cars suffer from the same head gasket issues in this installation as they do elsewhwere?
As far as I'm aware , some of the K series HG problems stemmed from the thermal load that was passed through the block when the engine was used in applications which put the engine under load from cold (i.e. freelander) which caused the head to heat up at a very non linear rate in terms of the temperature gradient across it. I belive this caused the fire ring lands to fail fairly frequently. If the liner heights are set correctly, and steel dowels fitted, then a std head gasket can be used with no problems. A lot of garages weren't ware of this and just kept re-fitting new HG and wondering why they kept failing!I run my car w/o a thermostat and haven't suffered any problems. Once everything's up to temp (i.e. the entire water jacket) and the oil temp, you OK to give it as many revs as it'll mechanically take.
Speak to Minister or Dave Andrews if you want a precise answer!
Chris71 said:
GFWilliams said:
I also believe that 120bhp would be plenty for a while as it will still be a big step up from an mx5.
I think that the k-series is fine in this state of tune, so long as you get a good one and look after it well.
Haven't driven an MX5 in over 3 years. I think that the k-series is fine in this state of tune, so long as you get a good one and look after it well.
But, yes, I get the point - 120hp will still be good fun in a car that's, what, 550kg? The closest I've come was my Sylva Leader which was about 140hp and 650kg.
On that note though, how much price difference should I expect between a 120hp 1.8 K-Series and the 140? How simple is it to upgrade the car at a later date if needed?
Edited by Chris71 on Wednesday 3rd June 13:12
The car you picked out looks very nice and has some of the right bits. It will come down to a compromise with condition, mileage, age and equipment formulating your price. A tattier Superlight with more miles might be the same price, but you might want to tidy it up gradually with a few new bits.
That cars looks pretty clean and well cared for from the photos, but they can hide a multitude of sins (not suggesting for one minute that they do in this case though).
A 1.6 Superlight for 10k?
http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/CATE...
Not a huge amount of information though and I'm always slightly wary of mainstream traders with specialist cars for sale.
Between PH, Car & Classic and Autotrader I think I've exhausted all the ads now!
http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/CATE...
Not a huge amount of information though and I'm always slightly wary of mainstream traders with specialist cars for sale.
Between PH, Car & Classic and Autotrader I think I've exhausted all the ads now!
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