Discussion
Went to thursdays autosport. Any car (just worried about caterhams) produced after 31/12/99 has to have a cat fitted, but they are only doing a visual inspection as per the bloke who works for them and no emissions test.
Got any ideas? has anyone thought about this yet, im sure they have, anyone got a pre 2000 car and done the job yet?
Thanks,
Sam
Got any ideas? has anyone thought about this yet, im sure they have, anyone got a pre 2000 car and done the job yet?
Thanks,
Sam
Murph7355 said:
I've re-read it a few times and still cannot figure what you're asking...
?
thats it really, can you hollow out a cat to look like a cat without it being a cat, if its a proper cat then the hp etc is going to be affected remap needed etc. Has anyone done this does anyone race a caterham produced after 2000 that needs a cat fitted, one with an engine non standard engine conversion.?
The long and short of it, is that you'll need a catalytic convertor if you want to compete in (MSA registered) Motorsports events in UK with a car manufactured after 1999 (see MSA 2009 blue book for details).
I wouldn't suggest trying to bend the rules, it'll only cost you money/frustration when you aren't allowed to run in an event due to non-compliance.
I wouldn't suggest trying to bend the rules, it'll only cost you money/frustration when you aren't allowed to run in an event due to non-compliance.
Hmm, probably a fair question though as if there is no test of the effectiveness presumably you are free to fit a high flow sports cat. Just how "high flow" and how ineffective it is would presumably not be an issue. Hence a whole new industry will be created manufacturing ineffective catalytic converters.
Perhaps less of an issue for most forms of Caterham racing as the exhaust is a controlled part. Sure, hollowing out the cat might be possible but so would all kinds of cheating. It's still cheating though.
Perhaps less of an issue for most forms of Caterham racing as the exhaust is a controlled part. Sure, hollowing out the cat might be possible but so would all kinds of cheating. It's still cheating though.
Edited by MarchHare on Tuesday 13th January 12:26
MarchHare said:
Perhaps less of an issue for most forms of Caterham racing as the exhaust is a controlled part. Sure, hollowing out the cat might be possible but so would all kinds of cheating. It's still cheating though.
We are not on about all sorts of cheating here, we are referring to potentially not using a cat on a 2000 car in a modified non caterham race series with a non standard engine against 700hp machines. As i have already said i have spoken to the race official at the show last week and he said that they are not going to check it emission wise.Edited by MarchHare on Tuesday 13th January 12:26
The last 20hp of the engine has cost a rising non linear amount of money to extract, i dont fancy restricting that, and racing against say a 30/12/99 car that hasnt any worries.
Anyway what categorizes the car! a race/ kit built car may have numerous parts pre 99, chassis, engine, donor parts. A large hp car built in 2000, has to fit a cat, change of chassis to a 99 now it doesnt. How can a race car be categorized when essentially it could be ever changing?
There is the letter of the law, and there is the spirit of the law.
Isn't competition at this level more about the latter than the former?
I think you know what they are intending by the rule - whether they do an emissions test or not, they obviously want cars to run cats. And would further suggest that scooping out the innards of a cat isn't going to be the difference between 1st and 2nd place...
I'm quite sure it would work. But I suspect you may need a re-map to take full advantage (don't think that's possible with the std ECU) and even then your biggest gain will likely be in weight rather than power.
Isn't competition at this level more about the latter than the former?
I think you know what they are intending by the rule - whether they do an emissions test or not, they obviously want cars to run cats. And would further suggest that scooping out the innards of a cat isn't going to be the difference between 1st and 2nd place...
I'm quite sure it would work. But I suspect you may need a re-map to take full advantage (don't think that's possible with the std ECU) and even then your biggest gain will likely be in weight rather than power.
Murph7355 said:
There is the letter of the law, and there is the spirit of the law.
Isn't competition at this level more about the latter than the former?
I think you know what they are intending by the rule - whether they do an emissions test or not, they obviously want cars to run cats. And would further suggest that scooping out the innards of a cat isn't going to be the difference between 1st and 2nd place...
I'm quite sure it would work. But I suspect you may need a re-map to take full advantage (don't think that's possible with the std ECU) and even then your biggest gain will likely be in weight rather than power.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvf5vqxIDCU&feature=relatedIsn't competition at this level more about the latter than the former?
I think you know what they are intending by the rule - whether they do an emissions test or not, they obviously want cars to run cats. And would further suggest that scooping out the innards of a cat isn't going to be the difference between 1st and 2nd place...
I'm quite sure it would work. But I suspect you may need a re-map to take full advantage (don't think that's possible with the std ECU) and even then your biggest gain will likely be in weight rather than power.
this is the competition x 2 along with lambo gallardo's etc. More to the point what makes a race cars year? the chassis, the engine, the diff? thats going to sort out the moral issue. My chassis has no number.
Omex 600 ECU, its got a lot of scope spoke to the lads about it at the show bu need to sort out an rs232 connection/ comms cable.
Could you explain the weight point? excuse my ignorance
Edited by sam919 on Wednesday 14th January 00:29
Its pretty simple really......
If the drag raing you are competing in is goverened by the MSA then your vehicle must have a cat if it was manufactured post 1999.
If its a caterham I presume it has a V5, this will give you the year of mnanufacture. If it hasn't then the major componants are chassis and engine and these will age the car. I doubt having a 2003 car and sticking a 1999 diff and box in is going to allow you to run without a cat.
If your car is post99 which I suspect, knowingly not fitting a cat is cheating. If you fit a cat and alter it to become ineffective again this is cheating. You might aswell sell the race car take the money to your local trophy shop and knock yourself out.
The priciple you should always work to is that if it doesn't say you can in your regs and blue book then take it as red that you can't.
Your best option is to stick a high flow cat on and get it remapped. I seriously doubt you will lose 20hp.
If the drag raing you are competing in is goverened by the MSA then your vehicle must have a cat if it was manufactured post 1999.
If its a caterham I presume it has a V5, this will give you the year of mnanufacture. If it hasn't then the major componants are chassis and engine and these will age the car. I doubt having a 2003 car and sticking a 1999 diff and box in is going to allow you to run without a cat.
If your car is post99 which I suspect, knowingly not fitting a cat is cheating. If you fit a cat and alter it to become ineffective again this is cheating. You might aswell sell the race car take the money to your local trophy shop and knock yourself out.
The priciple you should always work to is that if it doesn't say you can in your regs and blue book then take it as red that you can't.
Your best option is to stick a high flow cat on and get it remapped. I seriously doubt you will lose 20hp.
James.S said:
Its pretty simple really......
If the drag raing you are competing in is goverened by the MSA then your vehicle must have a cat if it was manufactured post 1999.
If its a caterham I presume it has a V5, this will give you the year of mnanufacture. If it hasn't then the major componants are chassis and engine and these will age the car. I doubt having a 2003 car and sticking a 1999 diff and box in is going to allow you to run without a cat.
If your car is post99 which I suspect, knowingly not fitting a cat is cheating. If you fit a cat and alter it to become ineffective again this is cheating. You might aswell sell the race car take the money to your local trophy shop and knock yourself out.
The priciple you should always work to is that if it doesn't say you can in your regs and blue book then take it as red that you can't.
Your best option is to stick a high flow cat on and get it remapped. I seriously doubt you will lose 20hp.
Firstly its post 31/12/99If the drag raing you are competing in is goverened by the MSA then your vehicle must have a cat if it was manufactured post 1999.
If its a caterham I presume it has a V5, this will give you the year of mnanufacture. If it hasn't then the major componants are chassis and engine and these will age the car. I doubt having a 2003 car and sticking a 1999 diff and box in is going to allow you to run without a cat.
If your car is post99 which I suspect, knowingly not fitting a cat is cheating. If you fit a cat and alter it to become ineffective again this is cheating. You might aswell sell the race car take the money to your local trophy shop and knock yourself out.
The priciple you should always work to is that if it doesn't say you can in your regs and blue book then take it as red that you can't.
Your best option is to stick a high flow cat on and get it remapped. I seriously doubt you will lose 20hp.
Unfortunately with the engine we are using its at the first stages of development with regards to cats being fitted, so losses are not know until rolling roaded.
The car has no V5 document as it has been built from bits from different years.
Its not drag racing as i used that as an example of the competition.
With a 1999 R400 what were the losses when a cat was fitted when say racing in europe to meet regs in the past, dont know about now.
I would like everyone to stop using the word cheating as i am asking for advise not telling you what im going to do or what should be done, i havent fitted or not fitted anything yet.
And the example im making is the difference between a 30/12/99 car and a 01/01/2000 car, with a car having one not fitted and one that has to be fitted with one. I'm sure if any of yourselves had to look into this then it would raise a debate, as im sure a lot of your cars are possibly post 2000 and possibly running in controlled caterham race series.
If the case was made for 2006 cars to use cats and 2005 cars not to, with the potential power losses, then im sure there would be some head scratching and with regards to race built cars using different parts of whatever form, some ongoing debate.
Edited by sam919 on Wednesday 14th January 11:54
erm......post 99 and post 31/12/99 are the same thing.
It may be simpler to let people know what you are intending to competing in.
Secondly if there is no V5 for the vehicle and it has been assembled form parts for which you can't establish a date of manufacture the only alternative is to use the date you started building it.
It may be simpler to let people know what you are intending to competing in.
Secondly if there is no V5 for the vehicle and it has been assembled form parts for which you can't establish a date of manufacture the only alternative is to use the date you started building it.
We pretty much know that for hillclimbs & sprints it a big bunch of arse fitting a Cat as the thing is unlikely to be up to full working temp before the last few metre's of the run! However post 1999 we have to have one fitted in order to compete.
As such its now our best bet to do our bit to minimise the power losses incurred, to this end there are a few suppliers of 100 cpsi Cats which claim to be extremely free flowing & should offer little in the way of power loss, they don't actually clean the gasses up to the MOT standard but will satisfy the event organisers.
BM Cats do a nice one for £140+vat suitable for up to 4ltr engines, with a taper either end to 63.5mm should suit most installs
Tel- 01623 663800.
As such its now our best bet to do our bit to minimise the power losses incurred, to this end there are a few suppliers of 100 cpsi Cats which claim to be extremely free flowing & should offer little in the way of power loss, they don't actually clean the gasses up to the MOT standard but will satisfy the event organisers.
BM Cats do a nice one for £140+vat suitable for up to 4ltr engines, with a taper either end to 63.5mm should suit most installs
Tel- 01623 663800.
Weight - I imagine the innards of a cat weigh a kilo or so. Save that and it's like having more power (how much depends on the power you have and the start weight of the car).
Am not convinced the cat will make *that* much difference to power.
And whilst you may not actually do it, scooping the innards out of a cat to make it look like you have one, when in fact you don't, in a race category that specifically requires one, is cheating. If you don't want people using the word, don't ask for advice on whether others have cheated in this way
btw, if being up against Lamborghini Gallardos is a problem, I would suggest that dumping the cats is not your problem, but the race series is. Get one with some corners and not many long straights, and it won't matter one bit whether you gain another 10bhp.
Am not convinced the cat will make *that* much difference to power.
And whilst you may not actually do it, scooping the innards out of a cat to make it look like you have one, when in fact you don't, in a race category that specifically requires one, is cheating. If you don't want people using the word, don't ask for advice on whether others have cheated in this way
btw, if being up against Lamborghini Gallardos is a problem, I would suggest that dumping the cats is not your problem, but the race series is. Get one with some corners and not many long straights, and it won't matter one bit whether you gain another 10bhp.
The Caterham race catalytic convertors on a K series R400 cost something like 3bhp peak.
The rough and ready testing method used by european scrutineers was to point a heat gun at the cat after a race. They could then remove it and do a visual inspection of its core (by looking down the end of it) if they felt it necessary. I can't imagine UK scrutineers doing anything less.
The rough and ready testing method used by european scrutineers was to point a heat gun at the cat after a race. They could then remove it and do a visual inspection of its core (by looking down the end of it) if they felt it necessary. I can't imagine UK scrutineers doing anything less.
Murph7355 said:
Weight - I imagine the innards of a cat weigh a kilo or so. Save that and it's like having more power (how much depends on the power you have and the start weight of the car).
Am not convinced the cat will make *that* much difference to power.
And whilst you may not actually do it, scooping the innards out of a cat to make it look like you have one, when in fact you don't, in a race category that specifically requires one, is cheating. If you don't want people using the word, don't ask for advice on whether others have cheated in this way
btw, if being up against Lamborghini Gallardos is a problem, I would suggest that dumping the cats is not your problem, but the race series is. Get one with some corners and not many long straights, and it won't matter one bit whether you gain another 10bhp.
As i said before it was an example of the competition. The race series are held at most of britains circuits, altough not to worry though as we wont be competing in any out of the box caterham race series.Am not convinced the cat will make *that* much difference to power.
And whilst you may not actually do it, scooping the innards out of a cat to make it look like you have one, when in fact you don't, in a race category that specifically requires one, is cheating. If you don't want people using the word, don't ask for advice on whether others have cheated in this way
btw, if being up against Lamborghini Gallardos is a problem, I would suggest that dumping the cats is not your problem, but the race series is. Get one with some corners and not many long straights, and it won't matter one bit whether you gain another 10bhp.
I will take your comment and never ever ask if anyone has done any modification at all that is non standard to anything ever again.
Phone raceco, raceline, mambo motorsport up, get a quote on the highest power duratec engine they have, buy it put it in your car and then think about the last 10hp they extracted being restricted by a cat, and remember that this last amount of hp has cost a large % of the cost of the engine. Think about the unlimited race series your in and the fact that 60% of your car is pre 99 and the rest is leading upto present. I think this would lead to some discussion, but wo-be-tide anyone starting a thread on it.
Im off to read my bible, before going to save some african kids, then i might fit the cat thats sitting in the garage
sfaulds said:
The Caterham race catalytic convertors on a K series R400 cost something like 3bhp peak.
The rough and ready testing method used by european scrutineers was to point a heat gun at the cat after a race. They could then remove it and do a visual inspection of its core (by looking down the end of it) if they felt it necessary. I can't imagine UK scrutineers doing anything less.
The MSA fellow said it would if anything be a visual inspection via the plug/ lambda point? If they had an endoscope with an LED on it they could shove it down the end and that would be that.The rough and ready testing method used by european scrutineers was to point a heat gun at the cat after a race. They could then remove it and do a visual inspection of its core (by looking down the end of it) if they felt it necessary. I can't imagine UK scrutineers doing anything less.
sam919 said:
...
I will take your comment and never ever ask if anyone has done any modification at all that is non standard to anything ever again....
That's not the context in which you asked the question.I will take your comment and never ever ask if anyone has done any modification at all that is non standard to anything ever again....
If you'd just asked - has anyone scooped the innards out of their Caterham's cat, you would probably get the answer to simply put a cat bypass pipe on it. Assuming your car was of the correct age (or to swap it in and out if you fancied the risk - plenty do).
sam919 said:
...
Phone raceco, raceline, mambo motorsport up, get a quote on the highest power duratec engine they have, buy it put it in your car and then think about the last 10hp they extracted being restricted by a cat, and remember that this last amount of hp has cost a large % of the cost of the engine. Think about the unlimited race series your in and the fact that 60% of your car is pre 99 and the rest is leading upto present. I think this would lead to some discussion, but wo-be-tide anyone starting a thread on it.
...
Your race series is not unlimited. For a start, they want you to run a catalytic convertor - which is a restriction/constraint.Phone raceco, raceline, mambo motorsport up, get a quote on the highest power duratec engine they have, buy it put it in your car and then think about the last 10hp they extracted being restricted by a cat, and remember that this last amount of hp has cost a large % of the cost of the engine. Think about the unlimited race series your in and the fact that 60% of your car is pre 99 and the rest is leading upto present. I think this would lead to some discussion, but wo-be-tide anyone starting a thread on it.
...
There are a number of engines that will fit in a 7 that kick out serious amounts of power even with a catalytic convertor. My general point is, if your race series requires a cat, and you need more power to beat your pesky, loaded competitiors, then your better route would simply be to buy a bigger powerplant. e.g. Duratec
Murph7355 said:
sam919 said:
...
I will take your comment and never ever ask if anyone has done any modification at all that is non standard to anything ever again....
That's not the context in which you asked the question.I will take your comment and never ever ask if anyone has done any modification at all that is non standard to anything ever again....
If you'd just asked - has anyone scooped the innards out of their Caterham's cat, you would probably get the answer to simply put a cat bypass pipe on it. Assuming your car was of the correct age (or to swap it in and out if you fancied the risk - plenty do).
sam919 said:
...
Phone raceco, raceline, mambo motorsport up, get a quote on the highest power duratec engine they have, buy it put it in your car and then think about the last 10hp they extracted being restricted by a cat, and remember that this last amount of hp has cost a large % of the cost of the engine. Think about the unlimited race series your in and the fact that 60% of your car is pre 99 and the rest is leading upto present. I think this would lead to some discussion, but wo-be-tide anyone starting a thread on it.
...
Your race series is not unlimited. For a start, they want you to run a catalytic convertor - which is a restriction/constraint.Phone raceco, raceline, mambo motorsport up, get a quote on the highest power duratec engine they have, buy it put it in your car and then think about the last 10hp they extracted being restricted by a cat, and remember that this last amount of hp has cost a large % of the cost of the engine. Think about the unlimited race series your in and the fact that 60% of your car is pre 99 and the rest is leading upto present. I think this would lead to some discussion, but wo-be-tide anyone starting a thread on it.
...
There are a number of engines that will fit in a 7 that kick out serious amounts of power even with a catalytic convertor. My general point is, if your race series requires a cat, and you need more power to beat your pesky, loaded competitiors, then your better route would simply be to buy a bigger powerplant. e.g. Duratec
Murph7355 said:
(or to swap it in and out if you fancied the risk - plenty do).
So your condoning it then!Edited by sam919 on Thursday 15th January 09:20
What series are you racing in.......?
Also the idea of tilling out on such a high end engine in such an old chassis (pre99) or pre 01/01/99 if you prefer, is slightly confusing but what is more disturbing is that you are worried about this 10 horse.
If you have spent this dosh on the motor i presume it is around the 300 - 330 horse mark, On most of the UK circuits i seriously doubt how much quicker you would be than say a C400 or CSR race car with "only" 220 or 260.
If it is such an issue for you I would suggest cutting your losses and find a series in which the cars are more or less equal so that it is the drivers talents on test and not the size of his or her wallet.
Also the idea of tilling out on such a high end engine in such an old chassis (pre99) or pre 01/01/99 if you prefer, is slightly confusing but what is more disturbing is that you are worried about this 10 horse.
If you have spent this dosh on the motor i presume it is around the 300 - 330 horse mark, On most of the UK circuits i seriously doubt how much quicker you would be than say a C400 or CSR race car with "only" 220 or 260.
If it is such an issue for you I would suggest cutting your losses and find a series in which the cars are more or less equal so that it is the drivers talents on test and not the size of his or her wallet.
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