Discussion
Hi guys,
It is my first poster but I have been a regular reader over the last months - it has been a joy!!!
I am looking for some advice. I am interested in buying a Caterham as my second car for Sunday drives and track days. I the past i thought the choice was between the R400 and R500. I decided I would be better off with the R400 as it is more reliable hence cheaper to run without giving up much excitement.
Now i have spotted some fairly priced SH CSR260's (~30K).
- Why have the CSR260 lost so much value when they are only between 1-2 years old. In general, i was of the impression that all the other caterhams R300 R400 etc keeps their value pretty well. Maybe, it is the normal first years of depreciation?
- Reliability and running costs of the CSR260 vs. R500 vs. R400?
- Pros and cons between R400 and CSR260?
- Any issues i should be aware of with the CSR260?
- Any spec the CSR260 should have? Please give reason
It is also worth mentioning that i live in London so the Sunday drives will be in a bit of traffic until i get out on the more open roads.
What are your thoughts? I love the adrenalin from acceleration and I love my track days - is the CSR260 the right choice?
Looking forward hearing your views.
I have seen the poster "R400 or CSR260" but i feel many of the above questions were not addressed.
It is my first poster but I have been a regular reader over the last months - it has been a joy!!!
I am looking for some advice. I am interested in buying a Caterham as my second car for Sunday drives and track days. I the past i thought the choice was between the R400 and R500. I decided I would be better off with the R400 as it is more reliable hence cheaper to run without giving up much excitement.
Now i have spotted some fairly priced SH CSR260's (~30K).
- Why have the CSR260 lost so much value when they are only between 1-2 years old. In general, i was of the impression that all the other caterhams R300 R400 etc keeps their value pretty well. Maybe, it is the normal first years of depreciation?
- Reliability and running costs of the CSR260 vs. R500 vs. R400?
- Pros and cons between R400 and CSR260?
- Any issues i should be aware of with the CSR260?
- Any spec the CSR260 should have? Please give reason
It is also worth mentioning that i live in London so the Sunday drives will be in a bit of traffic until i get out on the more open roads.
What are your thoughts? I love the adrenalin from acceleration and I love my track days - is the CSR260 the right choice?
Looking forward hearing your views.
I have seen the poster "R400 or CSR260" but i feel many of the above questions were not addressed.
thamsborg said:
- Why have the CSR260 lost so much value when they are only between 1-2 years old. In general, i was of the impression that all the other caterhams R300 R400 etc keeps their value pretty well. Maybe, it is the normal first years of depreciation?
- Reliability and running costs of the CSR260 vs. R500 vs. R400?
- Pros and cons between R400 and CSR260?
- Any issues i should be aware of with the CSR260?
- Any spec the CSR260 should have? Please give reason
Depreciation : Several factors I would think:- Reliability and running costs of the CSR260 vs. R500 vs. R400?
- Pros and cons between R400 and CSR260?
- Any issues i should be aware of with the CSR260?
- Any spec the CSR260 should have? Please give reason
1) Time of year. Not a good time to sell.
2) Any Caterham over 30k is an expensive toy that will appeal to relatively few people. If you start spec'ing them up towards the 40k mark new, expect to wait a long time to sell the car without having your trousers taken down on price.
3) There seems to have been a tendency over the last couple of years of people buying Caterhams because they think they should (as everyone bangs on about how good they are), but not being fully prepared for the banzai nature of the car. If they don't end up in a ditch, often they get sold on quite quickly I suspect as owners don't fully immerse themselves, get bored, can't be bothered etc.
4) It's always worth carefully pricing the spec to ensure depreciation is being properly calculated. These are pretty bespoke vehicles and prices can vary wildly.
5) The new addenda are ugly and people are resisting
(NB Subjective).Can't really answer the other questions properly having never owned/driven a Duratec car. Contrary to the usual wisdom espoused, K series cars can be reliable. BUT they must be looked after properly (needn't be any more expensive to do this than any other highly spec'd engine, but it does need doing).
If you've never owned a Caterham or anything similar (and at the risk of being patronising), starting with something nearer the 200bhp will probably be plenty. It's enough to scare the shit out of even seasoned owners, and plenty for road and track fun.
Some good questions there, and when buying, what is a very expensive toy, they are worth asking.
I reckon that a used CSR has got to be a bit of a bargain just now. For goodness sake, they appear to be down to around £25k with around 5k miles, or less. Not bad for a car that probably cost around £40k or more. Unless you currently have one for sale! The good news is, that I don't expect them to drop much much more. It's just that, as it is the most expensive Caterham, they will always attract the biggest initial depreciation drop, small market share, owners who think it's what they want, money no object, then find it isn't and attractively priced models a little further down the range. Frankly why wouldn't anybody go for a s/h CSR 260, with low miles, over a new Duratec R400 for the same money, and don't let that old chestnut about size make a difference, even if you don't NEED the extra girth, you will find it useful [if, to my eyes at least, a little ugly].
In my opinion, they are worth the extra money too. The chassis is much stiffer, the suspension is hugely improved, for road use anyway, and the Duratec is just a sublime engine, all for a few more kilos, which is hardly noticeable anyway. A highly tuned and revvy K may be alright on a track, but who the hell wants to be ready to overtake and have to drop down a gear, or two just to get into the power band, when all you do with an engine with torque is gently press the throttle, to go to warp speed, [and I do mean w a r p speed!].
It's early days for outright reliability of the Duratec, but it is looking good so far, as per posts on the other CSR thread.
The CSR has had issues, which should all have been attended to by Caterham, speak to James Gibson in aftersales, and he'll tell you about them and what fixes they have found. Also do a search on Blatchat, most issues have been well aired there.
As far as a spec. is concerned, go with whatever you find on the s/h car, it can always be upgraded if you want, the standard car is pretty good anyway.
The car handles traffic well, no probs. with overheating or clutch etc, kangarooing used to be a problem, but has now been pretty well overcome by CC.
Given your love of track days and adrenalin, you will be blown away with the capabilities of the CSR, well I have, even after 2 years of ownership, and this is after a long line of Sevens over 20 years [and the only 245bhp Vx engined 21 ever made, too]
PM me if I can answer any other queries.
Paul. J
I reckon that a used CSR has got to be a bit of a bargain just now. For goodness sake, they appear to be down to around £25k with around 5k miles, or less. Not bad for a car that probably cost around £40k or more. Unless you currently have one for sale! The good news is, that I don't expect them to drop much much more. It's just that, as it is the most expensive Caterham, they will always attract the biggest initial depreciation drop, small market share, owners who think it's what they want, money no object, then find it isn't and attractively priced models a little further down the range. Frankly why wouldn't anybody go for a s/h CSR 260, with low miles, over a new Duratec R400 for the same money, and don't let that old chestnut about size make a difference, even if you don't NEED the extra girth, you will find it useful [if, to my eyes at least, a little ugly].
In my opinion, they are worth the extra money too. The chassis is much stiffer, the suspension is hugely improved, for road use anyway, and the Duratec is just a sublime engine, all for a few more kilos, which is hardly noticeable anyway. A highly tuned and revvy K may be alright on a track, but who the hell wants to be ready to overtake and have to drop down a gear, or two just to get into the power band, when all you do with an engine with torque is gently press the throttle, to go to warp speed, [and I do mean w a r p speed!].
It's early days for outright reliability of the Duratec, but it is looking good so far, as per posts on the other CSR thread.
The CSR has had issues, which should all have been attended to by Caterham, speak to James Gibson in aftersales, and he'll tell you about them and what fixes they have found. Also do a search on Blatchat, most issues have been well aired there.
As far as a spec. is concerned, go with whatever you find on the s/h car, it can always be upgraded if you want, the standard car is pretty good anyway.
The car handles traffic well, no probs. with overheating or clutch etc, kangarooing used to be a problem, but has now been pretty well overcome by CC.
Given your love of track days and adrenalin, you will be blown away with the capabilities of the CSR, well I have, even after 2 years of ownership, and this is after a long line of Sevens over 20 years [and the only 245bhp Vx engined 21 ever made, too]
PM me if I can answer any other queries.
Paul. J
paulejacobs said:
kangarooing used to be a problem, but has now been pretty well overcome by CC.
hi paulejacobs, my Caterham does that... it is a bit of a pita tbh... I've had a remap done, but it only helped a bit... how did CC sort it? Mine has a Minister 2.3 Duratec btw...thanks
JakeR
I've just bought a s/h CSR 200 after nearly 3 years with a 1.8 roadsport (140bhp), and its phenomenal. I won't say I was a hand but I was pretty comfortable with the performance of the roadsport (especially after some proper driver training), the CSR is in a different league (I'd expect to need fighter pilot training for a 260).
If you give Caterham Service a call on 01322 625804, they will send you the service schedule and costs. They are only slightly more than a K engined car, and very reasonable.
Beauty is in the behind of the holder, and I don't think they are fugly at all (IMHO). I'm only 5'6" and 11 stone, so don't have a 'physical' need for the wider chassis either, but certainly appreciate the extra space. I also live in London and its fine - the controls are sensitive as you'd expect, but a delicate touch and its fine. I've driven a car that suffered from really bad bunny hop, and mine doesn't (but I've read of others that do). As Paul J said, CC have a new engine map that may well solve this problem if its there.
Looking at the ads on here, there are certainly some bargains to be had, and I imagine the next couple of months will be a good time to buy. As mentioned some of the owners may have bought the car to find out what all the fuss was about, and may not be the type of driving enthusiast that really gets bitten by the 7 bug (not a criticism). They be looking to sell after a nice summer in the car, and will now be looking for something else. There loss is your gain.
That all said, you are not going to be disappointed whichever way you go
If you give Caterham Service a call on 01322 625804, they will send you the service schedule and costs. They are only slightly more than a K engined car, and very reasonable.
Beauty is in the behind of the holder, and I don't think they are fugly at all (IMHO). I'm only 5'6" and 11 stone, so don't have a 'physical' need for the wider chassis either, but certainly appreciate the extra space. I also live in London and its fine - the controls are sensitive as you'd expect, but a delicate touch and its fine. I've driven a car that suffered from really bad bunny hop, and mine doesn't (but I've read of others that do). As Paul J said, CC have a new engine map that may well solve this problem if its there.
Looking at the ads on here, there are certainly some bargains to be had, and I imagine the next couple of months will be a good time to buy. As mentioned some of the owners may have bought the car to find out what all the fuss was about, and may not be the type of driving enthusiast that really gets bitten by the 7 bug (not a criticism). They be looking to sell after a nice summer in the car, and will now be looking for something else. There loss is your gain.
That all said, you are not going to be disappointed whichever way you go
Just an additional thought on the bunny hop issue - I read on Blatchat that another cause of the bunny hop phenomenon is the strength of the throttle return spring. Apparently, CC have uprated this on later cars and that gives better damping to random jerking motion hence reducing the severity and tedancy to hop.
With regard to the bunny hopping problems. It is quite correct that CC have done a recall to fit stronger springs to the throttle bodies, and have also done a remap of both the 200 & 260.
Notice that I said that they had "pretty well sorted the problem". There are reports from some owners that the problem has been overcome. I can only comment on my own early 260. I have had the new map installed on my ECU, and have temporarily installed a stronger spring at the throttle pedal. This has effected a 75% cure and makes the car quite drivable and nice generally, BUT, the original mapping problem is still there. I have a flat spot at what is probably the first mapping site, so in practice, when the throttle is cracked open from tickover, the engine dies, then picks up again as the throttle is opened further. This can be demonstrated whilst stationary at tickover.
So, on my car at least, the problem hasn't been fixed, but effectively masked, and to all intents and purposes it is fine virtually all of the time. It would appear that to erradicate that small flat spot, it would need to be individually mapped on a good rolling road. This may give a few more bhp too, although that is NOT a problem with this motor.
Notice that I said that they had "pretty well sorted the problem". There are reports from some owners that the problem has been overcome. I can only comment on my own early 260. I have had the new map installed on my ECU, and have temporarily installed a stronger spring at the throttle pedal. This has effected a 75% cure and makes the car quite drivable and nice generally, BUT, the original mapping problem is still there. I have a flat spot at what is probably the first mapping site, so in practice, when the throttle is cracked open from tickover, the engine dies, then picks up again as the throttle is opened further. This can be demonstrated whilst stationary at tickover.
So, on my car at least, the problem hasn't been fixed, but effectively masked, and to all intents and purposes it is fine virtually all of the time. It would appear that to erradicate that small flat spot, it would need to be individually mapped on a good rolling road. This may give a few more bhp too, although that is NOT a problem with this motor.
picked up my csr 260 on sat; haveing had a cat blackbird for 3 years which i sold last year and missed so much have been out this weekend all i can say is buy one the power the torque any gear any speed it is superbike fast and the noise just amazeing. is it worth the money oh yes anyone every one needs to try one.
doza said:
picked up my csr 260 on sat; haveing had a cat blackbird for 3 years which i sold last year and missed so much have been out this weekend all i can say is buy one the power the torque any gear any speed it is superbike fast and the noise just amazeing. is it worth the money oh yes anyone every one needs to try one.
But did you drive it sideways everywhere? Will it be as quick as my new specced up SLR running 250bhp in small lad size chassis???? I can see a meet at Ryker caf coming soon....
thamsborg said:
It is also worth mentioning that i live in London so the Sunday drives will be in a bit of traffic until i get out on the more open roads.
Also, the clutch cable wears due to the (f***ing stupid) design of the pedal box. I went through 3 clutch cables in a year. First one snapped as I was reversing out of my space in the garage - the car is so light that it didn't stall, but shot backwards and I ended up 6 inches from a DB9 with my heart in my mouth. Second time was in rush hour traffic on the North Circ. leaving London on a Friday night. Then, you're the jerk with the flash / kit car that is broken and is now pushing it across 3 lanes of traffic to the shoulder. On the plus side, I can now change a Caterham clutch cable in about ten minutes!
CSR with hydraulic clutch doesn't have these issues.
It's do-able, and I loved it but its no BMW.
P.S. Drive both - the CSR drove very differently to my SLR and whilst undoubtedly awesome would not be my choice.
Edited by daytona600 on Friday 2nd November 16:48
Edited by daytona600 on Friday 2nd November 16:48
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