Wet Weather Tyres for R300 - Trackdays
Discussion
You wont't get anything much better in the wet than CR500's other than full wets. I run slicks in the dry and CR500's in the wet. Although you do need to change your setup, ie soften the dampers, if you have adjustible ones, and possible disconnet the rear ARB. I also run my CR500's on 13x6" both front and rear in the wet.
yep sounds like handling issues. Check your spring rates as well.... soft rear and stiff front and you will have no grip at the front in the wet whatsoever. Nout wrong with CR500's in the wet.
see here for some lovely understeer using CR500's with a way off kilter 250lb/160lb spring combination: www.jackals-forge.com/lotus/movies/donny_13_03_push.wmv
If however you do want to go one better for no-compromise mental wet grip, then check out some cut slick wets like the avon classics..... just dont ever use them in the dry as they will very quickly disintegrate.
see here for some lovely understeer using CR500's with a way off kilter 250lb/160lb spring combination: www.jackals-forge.com/lotus/movies/donny_13_03_push.wmv
If however you do want to go one better for no-compromise mental wet grip, then check out some cut slick wets like the avon classics..... just dont ever use them in the dry as they will very quickly disintegrate.
Edited by jackal on Tuesday 21st November 11:37
This worries me slightly as it was like driving on ice!!!! In the dry the car is very neutral. The rears had plenty of grip in the wet, but thats not ideal as obviously if you have no front grip it makes it almost impossible to slide it around without setting the rears alight and drifting on the power. I guess we will have to look at the set up for the front. i am aware that Cat Midlands balanced the corners etc a few months ago, so that shouldnt be an issue (although i am 15 stone and my dad is 16 and a bit!). Thanks for the helpful advice as a new owner and newbie to the site!
Take the springs off and get them tested! Find out if they are standard Caterham fit. What dampers do you have, Bilsteins come in two different valving, Road/Track are M0, Race are M1's
If they are standard Bilsteins, then you can't do much about softening them up, as they don't adjust. What Front ARB and rear ARB do you have, you can tell the front, by what colour bobins the ARB goes through. I suggest you do a search on Blatchat.com or if you are a member of the L7 club, then after doing a search you can post a question.
If they are standard Bilsteins, then you can't do much about softening them up, as they don't adjust. What Front ARB and rear ARB do you have, you can tell the front, by what colour bobins the ARB goes through. I suggest you do a search on Blatchat.com or if you are a member of the L7 club, then after doing a search you can post a question.
The car is currently in our warehouse about 40 miles from me. I will get my dad to look at the susp. as far as i remember they are fully adjustable. Dad bought it from caterham midlands, i suppose they might know... Do you guys have different settings for different weather conditions, or do you meet in the middle to save changing things?
I change the setup depending on whether I'm running slicks or CR500's on the track. I also adjust the dampers for CR500's on the road. My CR500's and slicks are just about the same rolling circumf, so I don't have to mess about with rake (front to back) when swopping.
I also use radial slicks rather than crossply, so I haven't changed the de-dion ears to the neg camber ones.
I also use radial slicks rather than crossply, so I haven't changed the de-dion ears to the neg camber ones.
Never liked CR500s in the wet, though admittedly the car they were on wasn't that well set up either.
Yoko 21Rs I've always found to bve superb though, even prior to getting the car they're on set up properly.
They're also handy enough in the dry, though you do get chunks flying off them.
Yoko 21Rs I've always found to bve superb though, even prior to getting the car they're on set up properly.
They're also handy enough in the dry, though you do get chunks flying off them.
All good advice but it is possible to set the car up to be fairly neutral for both wet and dry conditions. Certainly run a thin anti roll bar on the front. On the "basic" narrow spec. front suspension this has orange rubber lugs which the bar runs through. If you have red (medium) or green (stiff) then you will find the car has a greater tendancy to understeer. You could remove both front and rear bars in the wet or just try running with orange only on the front.
To be honest I think you would be best advised to go for a basic "soft" set up and concentrate on your driving skills. The car will always tend to understeer in the wet, try keeping the front of the car loaded up as you turn in, i.e. keep a little bit of weight on via the brakes as you turn in as this helps the front grip. It's all about balance as too much braking will send the back round but smooth transition from braking to turn in should minimise understeer. As a last resort a sharpish lift off the throttle mid corner will usually send the car into mild oversteer and tighten the line. Use the car's natural handling characteristics to get it to do what you want it to.
This is all based on my experience of a year in the Caterham Academy where the car is restricted to rubbish tyres and very limited tuning options (just the three anti-roll bars, basically). The rationale is that we learn to drive around the handling characteristics (or vices, depending on your point of view) which result. You'd be amazed how fast some people can drive, even with these constraints.
To be honest I think you would be best advised to go for a basic "soft" set up and concentrate on your driving skills. The car will always tend to understeer in the wet, try keeping the front of the car loaded up as you turn in, i.e. keep a little bit of weight on via the brakes as you turn in as this helps the front grip. It's all about balance as too much braking will send the back round but smooth transition from braking to turn in should minimise understeer. As a last resort a sharpish lift off the throttle mid corner will usually send the car into mild oversteer and tighten the line. Use the car's natural handling characteristics to get it to do what you want it to.
This is all based on my experience of a year in the Caterham Academy where the car is restricted to rubbish tyres and very limited tuning options (just the three anti-roll bars, basically). The rationale is that we learn to drive around the handling characteristics (or vices, depending on your point of view) which result. You'd be amazed how fast some people can drive, even with these constraints.
The last post gave some great driving advice But not being restricted to tyres, different dampers and ARB's does allow you to set the car up better. Driving skill will always be a bonus, money spent on instruction is never wasted. Remember in an R300 you have some 160bhp which means the car will behave differently to an Accadamy car.
On the tyre front, make up your own mind, I've had a Caterham for some 9 years, so have pretty much tried all tyre combinations, and IMHO, CR500's are streets ahead of Yoko 21R's, if you don't believe me, just ask George Polley who sells 21's for his views. If 21's were that good, then I would buy them as opposed to spending £100 a corner on 500's.
21's are good as a general road tyre, but on a dry track, they break up. If I was going for a general tyre, then I would use Yoko 48's, but they are not great in standing water. As I said, I wanted a tyre that would give me good road and very good wet performance, so went for the Avon's, I don't use them on the track though, as I use slicks.
If I was that bothered, I would get a set of full wets, but if its raining that much, then I'd rather pack up and go to the pub I only do track days for fun, I'm not a racer.
But not being restricted to tyres, different dampers and ARB's does allow you to set the car up better. Driving skill will always be a bonus, money spent on instruction is never wasted. Remember in an R300 you have some 160bhp which means the car will behave differently to an Accadamy car. On the tyre front, make up your own mind, I've had a Caterham for some 9 years, so have pretty much tried all tyre combinations, and IMHO, CR500's are streets ahead of Yoko 21R's, if you don't believe me, just ask George Polley who sells 21's for his views. If 21's were that good, then I would buy them as opposed to spending £100 a corner on 500's.
21's are good as a general road tyre, but on a dry track, they break up. If I was going for a general tyre, then I would use Yoko 48's, but they are not great in standing water. As I said, I wanted a tyre that would give me good road and very good wet performance, so went for the Avon's, I don't use them on the track though, as I use slicks.
If I was that bothered, I would get a set of full wets, but if its raining that much, then I'd rather pack up and go to the pub
I only do track days for fun, I'm not a racer.Tortoise: i was using those techniques and it still wasn't behaving. I race another machine in the national championships, " a drakart" which has a fixed rear axle, so we have to be sideways before the corner. I have years of driving experience with these sorts of issues, but the caterham just didnt react very well to my actions. We have an sv so it has the wide-track suspension on it that are fully adjustable.
Casbar: i will stick with cr500's for the time being, a friend donated some 21s the other day, so we will try them in dry conditions only.
I am in the fortunate position of getting very good prices for all Formula Ford Zetec tyres (avon slicks, and wets) so we will probably give them all a go and see. I am aware that the set up is obviously still very wrong though!!!
Casbar: i will stick with cr500's for the time being, a friend donated some 21s the other day, so we will try them in dry conditions only.
I am in the fortunate position of getting very good prices for all Formula Ford Zetec tyres (avon slicks, and wets) so we will probably give them all a go and see. I am aware that the set up is obviously still very wrong though!!!
Be aware, that if you fit xply slicks then you will need to change the de-dion ears to neg camber ones, not a big job. Most people run different camber ears for slicks and then don't bother changing them for radials.
I got hold of some Mich radial slicks so didn't bother changing the ears, but I bought some neg ears before I got the radial slicks
21's are ok, but they do slide around a bit on the track and break up. I don't think its so much a tyre issue as a setup issue.
Good luck
Edited, messed up the bit about neg and poss camber on ears, suffice to say, if you run slicks you need to change the ears from the standard radial ones
I got hold of some Mich radial slicks so didn't bother changing the ears, but I bought some neg ears before I got the radial slicks
21's are ok, but they do slide around a bit on the track and break up. I don't think its so much a tyre issue as a setup issue.
Good luck
Edited, messed up the bit about neg and poss camber on ears, suffice to say, if you run slicks you need to change the ears from the standard radial ones
Edited by casbar on Wednesday 22 November 12:14
unless there is something very obvious going on like stiff front springs, too stiff front ARB, not enough heat getting into the front tyres etc.. then you could end up in a world of pain and waste months of ownership. The fact that its been setup recently might not count that much. Many cars straight from dealers drive in a shocking manner. One previous owner's perfect handling recipe might be your own worst nightmare.
Whilst I agree that sevens in the wet will naturally understeer your situation sounds more extreme ..... if a caterham doesn't "Jiggle" then its no more fun than a japanese 4 door family saloon. You could do a lot worse than contact someone like Fauldsport or Dave at www.racecardoctor.com/ ... he set my car up, one of the original & first R500 owners and he has setup all sorts of racecars including his own 250bhp westfield which is one of the finest handling westies out there. He will even come to the circuit for you and make sure that your car is exactly the way you want it and that you understand what is going on so you can manage it from there onwards.
Whilst I agree that sevens in the wet will naturally understeer your situation sounds more extreme ..... if a caterham doesn't "Jiggle" then its no more fun than a japanese 4 door family saloon. You could do a lot worse than contact someone like Fauldsport or Dave at www.racecardoctor.com/ ... he set my car up, one of the original & first R500 owners and he has setup all sorts of racecars including his own 250bhp westfield which is one of the finest handling westies out there. He will even come to the circuit for you and make sure that your car is exactly the way you want it and that you understand what is going on so you can manage it from there onwards.
Edited by jackal on Wednesday 22 November 12:00
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