Introduction to myself and why not Caterham + turbo?
Discussion
Hello everyone,
First off all, I am a new member from Portugal, hopping to become a caterham addicted and enthusiastic.
I start to do some research regarding Westfield, MNR and Tiger´s, but unfortunately here in Portugal none of those cars can be used in day bases because we don’t have single vehicle approval systems. So I direct my focus to caterham. Why only now you may ask?
1º Well in Portugal the tax but the car prices almost the double that you pay in England or in the rest of Europe.
For example the roadsport:
1.6L cost: 28500€ + IA (car tax applied in how many cm3 the engine have) + 21% of IVA (tax) = 43000€ = +/-30000 GBP
The CSR 200 cost =with tax’s 72000 € = 50000 GBP
So has you can see there are a big difference in prices.
2º I can’t legalize any locost like Westfield or MNR´s.
But with caterham sellers here in Portugal I can legalize it. Therefore I am seeking some second hand low budget caterham.
Knowing that the introduction off turbo´s improves exponential the efficiency, why I cant see any turbo modifications?
Best Regards, hope to see you some day in England roads by the day I bought one
Tiago Roldão
First off all, I am a new member from Portugal, hopping to become a caterham addicted and enthusiastic.
I start to do some research regarding Westfield, MNR and Tiger´s, but unfortunately here in Portugal none of those cars can be used in day bases because we don’t have single vehicle approval systems. So I direct my focus to caterham. Why only now you may ask?
1º Well in Portugal the tax but the car prices almost the double that you pay in England or in the rest of Europe.
For example the roadsport:
1.6L cost: 28500€ + IA (car tax applied in how many cm3 the engine have) + 21% of IVA (tax) = 43000€ = +/-30000 GBP
The CSR 200 cost =with tax’s 72000 € = 50000 GBP
So has you can see there are a big difference in prices.
2º I can’t legalize any locost like Westfield or MNR´s.
But with caterham sellers here in Portugal I can legalize it. Therefore I am seeking some second hand low budget caterham.
Knowing that the introduction off turbo´s improves exponential the efficiency, why I cant see any turbo modifications?
Best Regards, hope to see you some day in England roads by the day I bought one
Tiago Roldão
Caterham don't offer any turbo versions as standard. They did try a turbo set up back in the 80s but rejected the idea as they felt it wasn't suitable for the characteristics of the car. However, there have been a number of privately modified turbo Sevens some of which were quite good. Freddy Kumschick in Switzerland used to do a (very expensive) 400 bhp turbo-conversion.
The throttle characteristics of a revvy, non-turbo engine are far more suited to the car (as Eric notes). It's also not straightforward packaging a turbo in the limited space of a 7's engine bay.
Supercharging is something I looked at a while ago, but the costs aren't significantly less than doing a decent naturally aspirated engine (if you do it right).
There are no doubt a handful of cars that are turbo'd and work well, but I suspect you'll find the general consensus is to go with a naturally aspirated engine.
Besides, you don't really need (and can't readily use) much more than 200bhp anyway. Which is easily achievable from the likes of the Rover K-series, Ford Duratec and no end of other non-turbo lumps.
Good luck in your search. They are great cars!
Supercharging is something I looked at a while ago, but the costs aren't significantly less than doing a decent naturally aspirated engine (if you do it right).
There are no doubt a handful of cars that are turbo'd and work well, but I suspect you'll find the general consensus is to go with a naturally aspirated engine.
Besides, you don't really need (and can't readily use) much more than 200bhp anyway. Which is easily achievable from the likes of the Rover K-series, Ford Duratec and no end of other non-turbo lumps.
Good luck in your search. They are great cars!
I always thought a turbo conversion on a 1400 K Caterham would be quite nice. Fairly easy to engineer, the stock transverse exhaust manifold could be easily adapted with a turbo flange, and the forward facing plenum inlet would make piping from the turbo, via a front mounted intercooler, quite easy. Being a small engine and keeping power sensible (under 200bhp) it should be a compact turbo installation and not saddled with too much of the big power turbo vices of lag and spiky delivery. With 1400 Caterhams going pretty cheaply it has the alarming ring of feasibility...
And the best bit... cheap road tax
And the best bit... cheap road tax
lukeb said:
I always thought a turbo conversion on a 1400 K Caterham would be quite nice. Fairly easy to engineer, the stock transverse exhaust manifold could be easily adapted with a turbo flange, and the forward facing plenum inlet would make piping from the turbo, via a front mounted intercooler, quite easy. Being a small engine and keeping power sensible (under 200bhp) it should be a compact turbo installation and not saddled with too much of the big power turbo vices of lag and spiky delivery. With 1400 Caterhams going pretty cheaply it has the alarming ring of feasibility...
And the best bit... cheap road tax
And the best bit... cheap road tax
What's happened to your big bhp monster then Luke?...I'm after a 7.25 Raceco BTW - got any knocking about?
rubystone said:
What's happened to your big bhp monster then Luke?...I'm after a 7.25 Raceco BTW - got any knocking about?
Heh, well nothing's happened yet, believe it or not it's STILL not done. In my defence I've been mired in some colossal feature creep. We will be having traction & launch control for instance, a pandora's box of designing & having laser cut wheel triggers, sourcing sensors, making brackets, etc., etc. Just last night I finished designing the exhaust manifold flange, 'cos I've had the EGR head port welded up and don't want the weight of a standard flange.
I'm no braggart, but I reckon there won't be many Caterhams as extensively reengineered as mine when it's done.
I have an idea about a Raceco can, I'll mail you later.
normalbloke said:
Horsepoo
Really...
So how much over this can be deployed going round corners? And on circuits, how many straights are long enough for the advantage to be that apparent) - let's say beyond R500 power levels (230bhp or so).
And on public roads, how often will you be able to tell without (a) losing traction - note that traction control is effectively reducing your power and/or (b) seriously endangering other road users...
Don't want to sound like an old fart, but I genuinely think there's a limit to generally usable power in a 7...mods can be made to help (gearing, diffs, wider track, wider tyres etc), but all adjust the compromises somewhat (for an extreme example, look at Dave Edmunds car).
Murph7355 - have you had a ride in the RST V8 engined demonstrator? They reckon about 380bhp and it is certainly useable. Admittedly traction control is needed in the lower gears on anything other than a perfect dry surface, but the power can be deployed.
My own 227bhp engine is eminently useable and the additional torque actually makes it easier to tool around town in or when stuck in traffic. I'd have more power if it wasn't going to compromise the reliability (standard bottom end at the moment and hydraulic tappets).
The compromise is that you have fewer opportunities to use the full performance and this can make the car seem less exciting. It can be more fun to rag a lower powered car senseless than use just 80% of the performance of a higher powered car.
If my lottery numbers come up I'll be knocking on the door of the Seven Workshop for them to fit an RST V8 to my car
My own 227bhp engine is eminently useable and the additional torque actually makes it easier to tool around town in or when stuck in traffic. I'd have more power if it wasn't going to compromise the reliability (standard bottom end at the moment and hydraulic tappets).
The compromise is that you have fewer opportunities to use the full performance and this can make the car seem less exciting. It can be more fun to rag a lower powered car senseless than use just 80% of the performance of a higher powered car.
If my lottery numbers come up I'll be knocking on the door of the Seven Workshop for them to fit an RST V8 to my car
Murph,you're right, it does make you sound like an old fart.
There certainly are places where 200++ bhp can be used,perhaps not in the lower gears, but higher up I can replicate the accelleration many can only get dumping the clutch in first.
Your comment on endangering other road users is valid, and is not something that I do.Most of my spirited driving is done in the v v early hours,away from Joe Public and the rest of the weekend idiots to be found after 8 am on the roads.
It's each to their own I guess,I am very happy with my car,and would be the first to admit that around the track something like an R500 would probably post a faster time,but then track driving for me is pretty dull.I can from litre sports bikes, and this car gives me back something similar.
There certainly are places where 200++ bhp can be used,perhaps not in the lower gears, but higher up I can replicate the accelleration many can only get dumping the clutch in first.
Your comment on endangering other road users is valid, and is not something that I do.Most of my spirited driving is done in the v v early hours,away from Joe Public and the rest of the weekend idiots to be found after 8 am on the roads.
It's each to their own I guess,I am very happy with my car,and would be the first to admit that around the track something like an R500 would probably post a faster time,but then track driving for me is pretty dull.I can from litre sports bikes, and this car gives me back something similar.
we had a similar discussion recently on another thread
and i think it was generally agreed that after about 230-250bhp you are up against the law of dimishing returns and at some point you get to a position where dealing with reliability, possible extra or unfavourable weight issues could well mean that your lap times actually start going backwards. But then we also all agreed that having big power like towards 300 and over, can be great fun from an ownership point of view and also its great if you want lots of torque for so-called creative driving and mad straight line acceleration. But for sure, at that sort of power running costs are not just about the engine alone and you really do have to start looking at lots of other areas of the car which will see new levels of stress.
looking at the other point raised, for me, i would never own a caterham with a turbo... it just doesn't fit. High revving, normally aspirtaed engine everytime.... even if that means having 50-100bhp less. Engine character and teh satisfaction that the delivery gives you is IMO as, if not more important, than outright power.
and i think it was generally agreed that after about 230-250bhp you are up against the law of dimishing returns and at some point you get to a position where dealing with reliability, possible extra or unfavourable weight issues could well mean that your lap times actually start going backwards. But then we also all agreed that having big power like towards 300 and over, can be great fun from an ownership point of view and also its great if you want lots of torque for so-called creative driving and mad straight line acceleration. But for sure, at that sort of power running costs are not just about the engine alone and you really do have to start looking at lots of other areas of the car which will see new levels of stress.
looking at the other point raised, for me, i would never own a caterham with a turbo... it just doesn't fit. High revving, normally aspirtaed engine everytime.... even if that means having 50-100bhp less. Engine character and teh satisfaction that the delivery gives you is IMO as, if not more important, than outright power.
I have been privileged to have a go in the RST car. In fact I priced up converting my own car with Russell, but other expenses got in the way and I decided it needed to wait. Will go that route at some point though for a variety of reasons.
It's partly that car, however, that makes me post this controversial stuff up
Even on a dry road it spins its wheels through many of the gears. And that's in an SV chassis with much wider than normal rear tyres. Once it's spinning its wheels, or the traction control intervenes, the power is wasted and you may as well have less.
And this is not an endictment on the RST car as it's truly superbly engineered. Further underlines why mega power isn't necessary...
However, my main "disagreement" with turbos follows Jackal's. But each to their own, and the Caterham's a great platform for people being individuals
It's partly that car, however, that makes me post this controversial stuff up
Even on a dry road it spins its wheels through many of the gears. And that's in an SV chassis with much wider than normal rear tyres. Once it's spinning its wheels, or the traction control intervenes, the power is wasted and you may as well have less.
And this is not an endictment on the RST car as it's truly superbly engineered. Further underlines why mega power isn't necessary...
However, my main "disagreement" with turbos follows Jackal's. But each to their own, and the Caterham's a great platform for people being individuals
I drove the RST-V8 last week in the dry - no traction control switched on. It was phenomenal - but I found it tricky to get used to the sequential 'box and was conscious of how wide the car felt. Had it sideways out of the petrol station I turned round in and backed off in 3rd gear at that point in fear for my life!...I'd like to spend some time getting used to it to truly judge whether 380 plus bhp is too much.
Russell wil be slotting the Caparo engine in this car very soon - he's worked out where to mount the supercharger....that's rated at 500bhp
Russell wil be slotting the Caparo engine in this car very soon - he's worked out where to mount the supercharger....that's rated at 500bhp
Shaun_E said:
You know, Russell struck me as a quiet, unassuming type of bloke - but actually he must be a complete nutter - 500bhp in a Caterham? OK I take it back, you can have too much power...I think...well maybe...but I still want a ride in it. 
- 500bhp in a Caterham? OK I take it back, you can have too much power...I think...well maybe...but I still want a ride in it. He's a true petrolhead and also one of the quietest most unassuming people you could meet - really nice guy...and he loves his toys - Murph and I spent a great day in his biggest toy last summer - much faster than the RST!
rubystone said:
He's a true petrolhead and also one of the quietest most unassuming people you could meet - really nice guy...and he loves his toys - Murph and I spent a great day in his biggest toy last summer - much faster than the RST!
He is indeed.
That day will remain one of the best of my life
Murph7355 said:
rubystone said:
He's a true petrolhead and also one of the quietest most unassuming people you could meet - really nice guy...and he loves his toys - Murph and I spent a great day in his biggest toy last summer - much faster than the RST!
He is indeed.
That day will remain one of the best of my life
Mate, sorry I didn't get to meet today, meeting overran, wich was good news!
Murph7355 said:
normalbloke said:
Horsepoo
Really...
So how much over this can be deployed going round corners? And on circuits, how many straights are long enough for the advantage to be that apparent) - let's say beyond R500 power levels (230bhp or so).
This was at Oulton a few weekends ago - my first visit. And my point stands; it's enormous fun cornering with all that power and just steering on the throttle even if it's not very efficient - and it's only a track day...Gassing Station | Caterham | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff