HPC vs X- Flow
Discussion
The Vauxhall Hpc is a much more modern engine. 4 Valves per cylinder and can be tuned up to huge amounts of power and also the engine is bulletproof.But it is also a heavy engine which makes a HPC Caterham handling not as good as lighter engined Caterhams.People do find ways around this by fitting wide track suspension and having them properly set up but you have to bear in mind that it is still a heavier engine.
The x-flow is much older design which has been around for many years. The engine can be tuned to moderate levels of power but as it is a much older design the engine is more fragile and rough anround the edges. This is a character that some people enjoy along with the flames flying out of the exhaust on overrun!
As a first Caterham have you considered a 8 valve Vauxhall? For £9000-£10000 you could get a very low milage immaculate 1998/2001 car. Take the head of,send it to Bill Blydenstein,put it back on with a ast15 cam for £1000 total cost. You would then get a light Caterham 525Kg at 140bhp with as much torque as a 1.8 k series lighter if you take the spare wheel carrier off and run a aeroscreen. You will be suprised how many more expensive caterham you can upset. It is also cheap to insure. Is is however a live axle car.....but live axle cars are lighter..arguably better on the track. I have one which has no spare wheel carrier and a aeroscreen. Lots as of fun!
I would also be looking at Zetec engine cars. This is not a standard engine fit in this country. The people use the zetec to replace the x-flow in many cars and can be tuned up to 200bhp + and it is a sturdy engine and you could find a de-dion car.
If i were in your shoes i think i would be either looking at a 8v vauxhall engined Caterham or a Zetec engine Caterham as i reckon they are the best value for money.
Ian
The x-flow is much older design which has been around for many years. The engine can be tuned to moderate levels of power but as it is a much older design the engine is more fragile and rough anround the edges. This is a character that some people enjoy along with the flames flying out of the exhaust on overrun!
As a first Caterham have you considered a 8 valve Vauxhall? For £9000-£10000 you could get a very low milage immaculate 1998/2001 car. Take the head of,send it to Bill Blydenstein,put it back on with a ast15 cam for £1000 total cost. You would then get a light Caterham 525Kg at 140bhp with as much torque as a 1.8 k series lighter if you take the spare wheel carrier off and run a aeroscreen. You will be suprised how many more expensive caterham you can upset. It is also cheap to insure. Is is however a live axle car.....but live axle cars are lighter..arguably better on the track. I have one which has no spare wheel carrier and a aeroscreen. Lots as of fun!
I would also be looking at Zetec engine cars. This is not a standard engine fit in this country. The people use the zetec to replace the x-flow in many cars and can be tuned up to 200bhp + and it is a sturdy engine and you could find a de-dion car.
If i were in your shoes i think i would be either looking at a 8v vauxhall engined Caterham or a Zetec engine Caterham as i reckon they are the best value for money.
Ian
Don't discount a 2 litre VX engined car - I've seen several recently for £10k and last year that money would buy an (injected) HPC! The 1.6 VX uses a rough and ready Nova engine for its power and this and its live axle can make it tricky to get rid of once you want to progress.
Your best bet is a supersported 1.6 K, ideally with a 6 speed 'box...but the 5 speed is OK for your first Caterham. That car will be easy to sell on when you do want to move up.
Your best bet is a supersported 1.6 K, ideally with a 6 speed 'box...but the 5 speed is OK for your first Caterham. That car will be easy to sell on when you do want to move up.
Oh, and the HPC costs more money because it was the R400 of its day (using this logic, the JPE occupied the R500's place...but they didn't build many of them). The cheapest HPC will be the 165 bhp injected version, the most expensive an HPC with the DTH injection - circa 190 bhp in standard form IIRC. There's also a 175bhp carburetted version, fitted with 45DCOEs.
Good HPCs will continue to hold their money.
Good HPCs will continue to hold their money.
bertie said:
All IMHO.....x-flows are smokey leaky old things and the vauxhall hpc feels like you've got a boat anchor in the front, so you want a K series.
Background, I had a x-flow and it leaked and smoked and I've driven a friends HPC regularly and it feels nose heavy.
Your friend needs to get that car set up properly then - as a matter of interest who is he?..we'll get that car sorted for him. Is it running with flares, is it on 15 inch wheels, does it have widetrack... I've no axe to grind, I've just bought an R500 and I know that they understeer too...do you know why they understeer Bertie?....clue - it's clearly nothing to do with the weight of their engine....
My first Caterham was a 1600 Supersport....you'd presumably recommend that Bertie?...thing was, it understeered like a pig and had no grip at all...Why?...'cos it was running Goodyear F1s on 15 inch Prisoners and had narrow track...so you see...by changing the car set up you can do wonders for its handling...
Your cross flow leaked and smoked 'cos it needed a rebuild, simple as that...you should have spent some money on having the engine rebuilt and then you'd have found it great fun
Have you had a head gasket in your K yet?...the moment you do, you'll be slagging Ks off for overheating/hg/warped heads....
Ruby, chill man!
They're all great I know but I just believe that the more modern lightweight engines suit the car better.
My crossflow didn't need attention, and I had it built for me by a ver well recpected engine builder in my Westfield, but it is an old design and the seals aren't designed to cope with very thin modern synthetic oil. There's not a deal you can do about that.
And HPCs do weigh a deal more and it's all nose weight, sure you can make an HPC handle and be great fun and yes you can make a K series car into a dog.
I know the K series isn't perfect , plastic head dowels wasn't the best idea ever!!
Personaly I'd put my money into a early K series car rather than a crossflow, just my opinion.
They're all great I know but I just believe that the more modern lightweight engines suit the car better.
My crossflow didn't need attention, and I had it built for me by a ver well recpected engine builder in my Westfield, but it is an old design and the seals aren't designed to cope with very thin modern synthetic oil. There's not a deal you can do about that.
And HPCs do weigh a deal more and it's all nose weight, sure you can make an HPC handle and be great fun and yes you can make a K series car into a dog.
I know the K series isn't perfect , plastic head dowels wasn't the best idea ever!!
Personaly I'd put my money into a early K series car rather than a crossflow, just my opinion.
bertie said:
Ruby, chill man!
They're all great I know but I just believe that the more modern lightweight engines suit the car better.
My crossflow didn't need attention, and I had it built for me by a ver well recpected engine builder in my Westfield, but it is an old design and the seals aren't designed to cope with very thin modern synthetic oil. There's not a deal you can do about that.
And HPCs do weigh a deal more and it's all nose weight, sure you can make an HPC handle and be great fun and yes you can make a K series car into a dog.
I know the K series isn't perfect , plastic head dowels wasn't the best idea ever!!
Personaly I'd put my money into a early K series car rather than a crossflow, just my opinion.
I'm chilled - just wanted to ensure that myths don't get perpetuated - and the VX one is a myth...but you'd have to have owned one and driven it on track to appreciate what I've said...and to have also owned a K of the same power too...which I have....
If you'd stuck with a thicker oil for your crossflow you'd have had none of those problems. Roger King told me he got out of this business because he'd build a superb engine from someone, only for them to bring it back to him in bits because they'd done something stupid with it, despite his having given them instructions on how to treat the engine....
rubystone said:
I'm chilled - just wanted to ensure that myths don't get perpetuated - and the VX one is a myth.....
What's a myth?
Like I said yes you can make a vx handle and a K series drive like a pig on a pogo stick, but the fact remains that a hpc vx engine is a lot heavier than a k series.
No one can say that's a myth, it's just a fact.
>> Edited by bertie on Monday 22 May 20:02
bertie said:
[quote=rubystone
I'm chilled - just wanted to ensure that myths don't get perpetuated - and the VX one is a myth.....
What's a myth?
Like I said yes you can make a vx handle and a K series drive like a pig on a pogo stick, but the fact remains that a hpc vx engine is a lot heavier than a k series.
No one can say that's a myth, it's just a fact.[/quote]
No, the myth is that a VX will never handle as well as a K, not that it's heavier....that's a given...unless the K comes bolted to an SV of course....
bertie said:
So Ruby, in essence we agree!
Feel the love in the room!
Of course we do - but I really do try to give a balanced view if someone asks my advice...and that's all I was trying to do.
All Caterhams are great, they really are...they wake one up to what fun can be had in a car, even in today's driving conditions....and on track...they are just about unbeatable in terms of ability and fun factor.
There's a very nice Roadsport on BC in your budget I reckon [url]www.blatchat.com/t.asp?Id=105625[/url]
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