Help me buy my first Caterham

[25th QV]

I've got a budget of mid to late teens and really wand a de-dion car as the roads near me aren't great.

From what I can see, I can get 1700 Crossflow Super Sprint or 1.6K version from the '90s for my budget.

I'll only be using it on the road, in the dry and never on the track.

I'm reasonably capable and can do most mechanical work / upkeep myself so carbs vs fuel injection not a factor from a tinkering point of view.

In all the youtube ride along videos I've seen, the 1700 X-flow sounds just glorious and really speaks to me and with 135 bhp, might be a touch quicker than the 115bhp K series cars?

I've three cars on my current short list and would appreciate feedback or things to note that might escape my inexperienced eyes.

1) https://www.classiccarauctions.co.uk/1992-caterham...

Thoughts - fully rebuilt - could be a good thing or a bad thing. Head replaced... with the correct Caterham ported unit with bigger valves I wonder? Seats look very saggy, but then again, 30k miles. Could be decent, or could be a tired old dog in disguise? Not keen on the rear exhaust, so that'd need modifying/changing.


2) https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2023-2...

Thoughts - Nice low miles, lots of stone chips on the rear wings for only 6k miles, is this normal? Only 115 bhp, is this quick enough? Does the standard 1.6K engine have enough personality or is it a little sterile / refined?


3) https://www.silverstoneauctions.com/1999-caterham-...

Thoughts - a heavily modified Superlight but not a Superlight R. Probably a rocket ship. Looks a bit tatty and un-loved. Owner has only had it 1 year and done 300 miles in it - why? Makes me wonder if there's a problem with it, or is the highly strung tune of the engine is an issue? Is the heavily modified non-original nature risk for value retention? Here's the auction he bought it from 12 months ago showing some sloppy over spray on the front passenger side suspension and steering components that screams 'abused and not loved', likewise the flaking and rusty front grill. https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/1999-caterham-...

I live hundreds of miles and hours away from these cars so can't just pop down for a quick look so want to try and narrow down the likely candidate first.

Any thoughts, observations or input re the above cars much appreciated.

(Yes I can fit in them, yes I've driven one, a long time ago, too long to remember anything useful other than it was great).

Thanks in advance.

Edited by 25th QV on Sunday 12th February 12:34

[Tiddy7]

What I would say from many many miles of Caterham ownership (about 200K miles at last count) is that the difference between a crossflow and a K-series is so stark that you really need to want a Xflow for some nostalgic reason to go down that route. My first car was a xflow, which I enjoyed for 95K miles, but moving on to the k series was a step change in reliability and maintenance needs. Ive had, 1.4, 1.6, 1.8 240bhp k-series and all were fun but really benefited from the 6 speed box, so that's a real must for those cars. the 2.0 duratec is again a step change from the K cars, not quite a frenetic, a little heavier but the engine is sooooo much cheaper for maintenance and can pull 200 hp without breaking a sweat, with absolutely no need for a 6 speed box

Moderator edit: no advertising please

[Lotobear]

25th QV said:

I've got a budget of mid to late teens and really wand a de-dion car as the roads near me aren't great.

From what I can see, I can get 1700 Crossflow Super Sprint or 1.6K version from the '90s for my budget.

I'll only be using it on the road, in the dry and never on the track.

I'm reasonably capable and can do most mechanical work / upkeep myself so carbs vs fuel injection not a factor from a tinkering point of view.

In all the youtube ride along videos I've seen, the 1700 X-flow sounds just glorious and really speaks to me and with 135 bhp, might be a touch quicker than the 115bhp K series cars?

I've three cars on my current short list and would appreciate feedback or things to note that might escape my inexperienced eyes.

1) https://www.classiccarauctions.co.uk/1992-caterham...

Thoughts - fully rebuilt - could be a good thing or a bad thing. Head replaced... with the correct Caterham ported unit with bigger valves I wonder? Seats look very saggy, but then again, 30k miles. Could be decent, or could be a tired old dog in disguise? Not keen on the rear exhaust, so that'd need modifying/changing.


2) https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2023-2...

Thoughts - Nice low miles, lots of stone chips on the rear wings for only 6k miles, is this normal? Only 115 bhp, is this quick enough? Does the standard 1.6K engine have enough personality or is it a little sterile / refined?


3) https://www.silverstoneauctions.com/1999-caterham-...

Thoughts - a heavily modified Superlight but not a Superlight R. Probably a rocket ship. Looks a bit tatty and un-loved. Owner has only had it 1 year and done 300 miles in it - why? Makes me wonder if there's a problem with it, or is the highly strung tune of the engine is an issue? Is the heavily modified non-original nature risk for value retention? Here's the auction he bought it from 12 months ago showing some sloppy over spray on the front passenger side suspension and steering components that screams 'abused and not loved', likewise the flaking and rusty front grill. https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/1999-caterham-...

I live hundreds of miles and hours away from these cars so can't just pop down for a quick look so want to try and narrow down the likely candidate first.

Any thoughts, observations or input re the above cars much appreciated.

(Yes I can fit in them, yes I've driven one, a long time ago, too long to remember anything useful other than it was great).

Thanks in advance.

Edited by 25th QV on Sunday 12th February 12:34

If you can find one a 1.4ss K series (135bhp) with 6 speed is the sweet spot, or at least it was for me. The combination of the high revving 1.4 and the 6 speed was a complete joy. I upgraded it to 1.8 and it was never quite the same unfortunately.

[Hard-Drive]

Of the three I'd be going for the Superlight all day based on specification. Agree the overspray isn't ideal, but at the end of the day it's nothing more than a bad application of masking tape, it's hardly bald tyres or a rotten chassis. It's easily sorted, as is the grille...be aware that these cars get peppered with stones, I've had to sort the grille out on both the 7's I've owned.

The other two are much more "retro", and if that's what you want, fine. However I'm sure you can do better for your budget, I sold an absolutely immaculate Sigma 1.6 earlier this year for high teens.

[25th QV]

Hard-Drive said:

Of the three I'd be going for the Superlight all day based on specification. Agree the overspray isn't ideal, but at the end of the day it's nothing more than a bad application of masking tape, it's hardly bald tyres or a rotten chassis. It's easily sorted, as is the grille...be aware that these cars get peppered with stones, I've had to sort the grille out on both the 7's I've owned.

The other two are much more "retro", and if that's what you want, fine. However I'm sure you can do better for your budget, I sold an absolutely immaculate Sigma 1.6 earlier this year for high teens.

Thanks all for the replies so far.

I am attracted to the Superlight, but fear it'll be too dear. What would you say is a decent price for it - I'd be the 6th owner with only partial service history - which I guess is common on these?

[Hard-Drive]

25th QV said:

Thanks all for the replies so far.

I am attracted to the Superlight, but fear it'll be too dear. What would you say is a decent price for it - I'd be the 6th owner with only partial service history - which I guess is common on these?

Owners is fairly irrelevant. Bear in mind a lot of Caterham owners hold onto a car for a short amount of time before upgrading to a faster one! Personally I'd be avoiding auctions as it's easy for things to run away, and just look at the PH classifieds to give you an idea of what's available for how much money. As for service history many Caterhams are owner maintained so you can potentially ignore some of that...bear in mind some owners will change the oil after every track day.

Ultimately you need to decide on a spec, and assuming it's S3 DeDion, do you want Ford or Rover power, how much power (be flexible here), 5 or 6 speed, lowered floors or standard, heater, leather or Tillet seats, 13" wheels or bigger, track, type of roll protection, LSD, etc etc and your list of possibles should start to whittle down. You can then see if you are being realistic, or need to re-evaluate and compromise. Obviously a lot of the above can be retro fitted afterwards but get as close to your spec as you can or it will get expensive to add this stuff later.

[anonymous-user]

Lotobear said:

If you can find one a 1.4ss K series (135bhp) with 6 speed is the sweet spot, or at least it was for me. The combination of the high revving 1.4 and the 6 speed was a complete joy. I upgraded it to 1.8 and it was never quite the same unfortunately.

I've had 2 x 1.4 K series super sports (both 1.4 and 1.6 also) with the 6 speed box, they go together wonderfully well. They are quite low geared so not the best for touring I'd say, but for fast A/B road driving they are fantastic.

[25th QV]

Hard-Drive said:

Owners is fairly irrelevant. Bear in mind a lot of Caterham owners hold onto a car for a short amount of time before upgrading to a faster one! Personally I'd be avoiding auctions as it's easy for things to run away, and just look at the PH classifieds to give you an idea of what's available for how much money. As for service history many Caterhams are owner maintained so you can potentially ignore some of that...bear in mind some owners will change the oil after every track day.

Ultimately you need to decide on a spec, and assuming it's S3 DeDion, do you want Ford or Rover power, how much power (be flexible here), 5 or 6 speed, lowered floors or standard, heater, leather or Tillet seats, 13" wheels or bigger, track, type of roll protection, LSD, etc etc and your list of possibles should start to whittle down. You can then see if you are being realistic, or need to re-evaluate and compromise. Obviously a lot of the above can be retro fitted afterwards but get as close to your spec as you can or it will get expensive to add this stuff later.

Appreciate that, thanks.

My priorities are in this order:

1) A good car that has not been crashed or otherwise rendered a 'wrong'un, leading to priority 2
2) One that is a) good value and also not an acquired taste, so b) I can liquidate it easily if needs be for little if any loss - i.e avoiding the trade/retail gap of traders etc
3) Fas as possible
4) Raw and hard core as possible
5) Cheap as possible

Beyond that, I'm not bothered about seats, wheels, screens, floors etc as long as the above are ticked.

If leather seats, clamshells, windscreen and walking stock holder increases the chances of avoiding a car that's gone through multiple hay bails, cones and red/white armco, then that is my preference.

Problem with Piston Heads is that it is effectively a Traders showroom, and I really don't want to buy retail from a trader as I do not see the value add vs inflated price factor, nor do I want to pay other people's wages. I'd much rather buy privately or via auction where I can set a limit and stick to it.

But what does my ideal car look like? A 420R, tillets, aero screen, cycles, lowered floors, 6 speed, LSD, wide track etc...... but I also appreciate a used one of those will have been driven like a rental car late for the airport, 25 hours a day, 8 days a week.

[BertBert]

I'll come along from a different perspective OP. I say it to help, but you are on the wrong track. You have no idea what you are taking about. You've never driven one so don't even know if you want 100bhp or 300bhp. Frenetic 6-speed or lazy 5 speed. Full on aeroscreen, hard buckets or cosseted full screen and comfy heated seats.

My suggestion is to get close to a few, find a way to drive some to help your decision making.

Hope that's not too brusque!
Bert

[25th QV]

BertBert said:

I'll come along from a different perspective OP. I say it to help, but you are on the wrong track. You have no idea what you are taking about. You've never driven one so don't even know if you want 100bhp or 300bhp. Frenetic 6-speed or lazy 5 speed. Full on aeroscreen, hard buckets or cosseted full screen and comfy heated seats.

My suggestion is to get close to a few, find a way to drive some to help your decision making.

Hope that's not too brusque!
Bert

No worries, I get where you're coming from.

Just for clarity, I have driven two, albeit a long time ago. I drove a 1600 Cross flow a work colleague let me try and also my uncle had a 1.6K when they first came out, but both these experiences were 15+ years ago and my memory is fading.

[Hard-Drive]

Agree with BertBert. There's absolutely no point in talking about a fully specced 420r in the same sentence as "mid to high teens", you're not even slightly close, hence me saying do your research and study the classifieds so you can understand what your money can buy you. With respect, if you've never had a Caterham before, you don't want "as fast and raw as possible" unless you are coming from some kind of very similar track car where you should have an idea of exactly what you want.

Your budget puts you firmly in K or, if you are lucky, Sigma Roadsport territory, so do your research around that. Good luck!

[anonymous-user]

The other thing to mention is that Caterhams are incredibly sensitive to setup geo, so I would budget a couple of hundred pounds to get it properly set up, which ever variant you go for.

[framerateuk]

25th QV said:

3) Fas as possible
4) Raw and hard core as possible

To elaborate on this, they're all raw, hardcore and fast - it's about finding one within your tolerance zone!

Some people love tillets, others find them really uncomfortable. I've got the normal leather seats and they fit me perfectly, and combined with lowered floors, I'm at just the right height - the tillets would make me too low in the car.

There's also the heater, I personally like having one and often use it in the autumn and spring.

And for the windscreen, you can swap easily between screen and aero and enjoy the perks of both.

In terms of speed, I've got a 140bhp Sigma and other than on long straights (such as Donington) I never find it lacking power. For mid to late teens you're probably not going to get much more power than that.

I also wouldn't worry about paint jobs so much either. The cars all pick up chips and marks easily, mine had a very tatty paint job when I got it, but mechanically it was brilliant. I had it repainted at TSK 18 months ago and it looks like a new car.

25th QV said:

But what does my ideal car look like? A 420R, tillets, aero screen, cycles, lowered floors, 6 speed, LSD, wide track etc...... but I also appreciate a used one of those will have been driven like a rental car late for the airport, 25 hours a day, 8 days a week.

That's going to be way outside your budget. But also, these cars are built for that, I'd guess most will have been on a track at some point, some more than others, but that's the point of them. People who take these cars to tracks regularly tend to keep them well serviced and replace/update parts when required.

Mine was an ex Autosport drift car. It had obvious wear on the seats and harnesses from all the people who'd been in and out of it, but the spec was great and it hasn't missed a beat. I'm 10 years into ownership this year and I finally need a new clutch - and that's after many trackdays and road trips.

If someone's advertising a R400 as 'one careful owner, never tracked', that would raise more questions for me than a car that's been used as intended.

Edited by framerateuk on Friday 17th February 13:13

[25th QV]

Thanks all for your guidance, all duly noted.

I know. won't get a 420 for anything like my budget, I was just referencing what I'd order new as a reference to get as close to as poss, accepting compromises all along the way.

[coppice]

Take comfort in the fact that Caterhams of virtually any power output feel more similar to each other than just about anything else - so you get the special experience even with modest power . My first was 120bhp, later upped to 160 bhp , my second was 210bhp, upped to about 225 and they all guaranteed smiles per mile and every trip becomes an adventure . Things just happen faster with big power, most (but not all ) of them are welcome ....

[AVB]

I am very new to Caterham ownership only having had mine a couple of weeks and been out in it twice. It's a 150BHP K series and it's plenty enough for me as a first Caterham. I've owned far more powerful cars but these are different beasts. Will I hanker for more power in the future? Perhaps, but for now its plenty.

Don't discount specialist dealers. They can talk you through the pros and cons of each car relative to you. The ones I spoke to were happy to talk and if they sold a car at the end of it then that was a bonus.