Thinking of dabbing in Caterham Ownership - a few questions.

[Funkydunc]

Sorry I hope this isnt one of many similar posts, but I cant see that it is ?

Last year I was looking a Porsche Boxster 981s as a daily and weekend car, however circumstance changed and I now have a motorway mile muncher. This now means I can look at a more focused car purely as a toy!

A few questions sorry:

1. Which is the best forum to use for Caterham, there don't appear to be many?
2. I want a car primarily for the road, so power isnt the priority, maybe up to max 360 in terms of model?
3. Will I regret getting a lower powered car in the long term?
4. Cars I've had in the past, I have always regretted those that didnt have a LSD - is this needed on a Caterham, or it can be an achilles heal ie not robust/noisey?
5. Wheels - better to look at 13's rather than 15's ? More compliant ride, and more feedback?
6. Servicing - I get the impression, regardless of engine services intervals are low ie every 4k ish? Is this just a simple home oil change, or more to it?
7. I live near Oswestry - where do people get there cars worked on in the area?
8. I have done a couple of track sessions in Caterhams but never driven one on the road. Is it best to hire one for a weekend, its not really the type of car that a test drive will allow me to determine what I want.

Finally are prices inflated massively at the moment, or has it not really effected the Caterham market so much?

Thanks in advance !

[AndrewGP]

Good choice, they're bloody brilliant little cars

1. You've got a choice between here, the Facebook groups and Blatchat which is part of the Lotus7Club. Blatchat can be errr...interesting at times so I stick to here and the FB groups which are pretty good. They also have separate FB groups for tech matters and classified sales.

2. The widely accepted sweet spot seems to be 360 for the road with some happier with either the 270 or the 420 depending on preference.

3. Getting the right powered car first off is cheaper in the long run as tuning NA engines can get expensive. It can be done though.

4. If you like LSDs, definitely get one. Some people think they aren't needed on the road, others disagree. I'm in the latter camp and like the way my LSD equipped car handles. Depending on model though, some have caused issues....mine did and I had to get it changed for a different one. Google 'Caterham Titan LSD problems'

5. 13s every day of the week for the reasons you mention.

6. A lot of people self service their cars so it shouldn't put you off and anything from 1k to lots of miles can be done annually depending on the owner's tolerance of rain and cold! Most people do about 3-4k miles though. Servicing is very straight forward, access is easy and it's just a big Lego set at the end of the day. Services tend to follow a Small->Big->Small->Bigger type cycle so one year it's easy, the next year a bit more involved (things like clutch and brake fluid etc) with spark plugs/cambelt on the 4th year. Duratec engines are chain driven though so no cambelt to worry about.

7. Sorry, no idea!

8. Definitely hire one for the weekend. A test drive can be a bit overwhelming and it takes time to work out which spec choices suit you. Options aren't cheap either (if you're buying new) so worth taking a weekend to experience the car and all it's idiosyncrasies.

I can't help you on prices, but I can say the hold their value incredibly well, in my car has very slightly appreciated in the time I've owned it so think of it as an alternative savings account

[Funkydunc]

Thanks Andrew, confirmed some of the stuff I thought, and useful on other things

Definitely will be 2nd hand budget will be low £20's max. What I am not sure of is would that have ever got me a 360 (or equivalent) etc as at the minute they appear to be in the low £30's bracket

[CanAm]

Funkydunc said:

7. I live near Oswestry - where do people get there cars worked on in the area?

Kendricks in Llangollen are specialists.

[Funkydunc]

CanAm said:

Kendricks in Llangollen are specialists.

Perfect thank you ! Always a good place to start having a few conversations !

[Boggo]

1. There are no good forums - all are full of terrible people. Watch out for Blatchat and for one particular individual and his son on facebook (avoid at all costs!)
2. Personally don't see much point in anything with loads of power on the road - I think you'd be very happy with a 270 or 310 on the road. If you really don't intend to do much track work - stick to S models not R. Much more road compliant and comfortable.
3. Maybe, but upgrades are relatively easy to get done so more power is usually an option with the right money
4. If you feel you need an LSD on the road then you're driving like a dick. Personally I wouldn't bother with the expense and extra servicing for a road only car. If you're doing track work, then I would get one (although remember that Caterhams race the first three rungs on the ladder without them!)
5.13's - end of
6. DIY service is perfectly acceptable - make sure you document and reciept everything to build a history.
7. As above - do it yourself
8. Probably worth doing - they arn't the best road going beasts - but they sure are fun
9. Yes, prices are up at the moment

Good luck

[AndrewGP]

Boggo said:

1. There are no good forums - all are full of terrible people. Watch out for Blatchat and for one particular individual and his son on facebook (avoid at all costs!)

4. If you feel you need an LSD on the road then you're driving like a dick. Personally I wouldn't bother with the expense and extra servicing for a road only

Saying they're FULL of terrible people is completely wrong IMHO. Yes Blatchat is bit weird, no argument there, and yes Facebook brings out a few muppets, but on the whole I've found most people Caterham owners to be very helpful and tolerant on there, and also especially here on PH.

On the LSD, to say you're driving like a dick if you feel the need for one is way too simplistic and a sweeping generalisation. Although I see most benefits of mine on track, I do appreciate it in early Spring and Late Autumn when the temperatures are low and the roads are greasy and muddy. I certainly don't drive like a dick on the road (my licence has been completely clean for well over 20 years) but I feel it makes the car much more predictable when the grip levels are poor.

I'll concede my car is set up to account for the LSD (and also it's an emotive subject with spilt opinions) but I think your statement is a bit strong

[Funkydunc]

Thanks for the further input

Re LSD, I was asking for reasoned advice which in a round about way perhaps the dick comment was.

In terms of sports cars I’ve got limited history, a Suzuki Cappuccino that would spin up the inside wheel at the slightest chance in damp conditions, an MX5 with LSD that was more predictable because of it, and more lately yes not a true sports car but a powerful 3 series that would spin up and therefore make it less predictable.

IMO LSD cars are more predictable

When I drove a couple of Boxters last year they don’t have LSD but bags of grip. I don’t want bags of grip at stupid speeds, I want a car that you can explore the grip levels a bit more (or am I completely wrong that this is possible in a Caterham on the road)

Anyhow it sounds like to ‘future proof’ myself I should get LSD as I imagine over time I will find myself wanting to do track days ?

I guess I also need to hire a car sooner rather than later to find out if it’s the car for me. Even hiring appears to be complicated though when you live in the back of beyond !

Edited by Funkydunc on Tuesday 8th February 21:55

[Turn7]

Had my 150 SV for getting on for 4 years now.

13s are defo the way to go.

LSD - I’ve just one fitted and for me, it’s completely woke the car up, it’s just feels more alive.
The latest Titan lad doesn’t have the the carbon plates which led to the appalling reliability and noise issues.

I’m not convinced L7C offers great vfm, so don’t partake.

I find the FB group very helpful, busy, and full of experienced owners.

I don’t have any beef with the individual mentioned but nor am I a sycophant.

Take folks as you find them.

ETA- here is equally as good, but a lot of duplication of personnel lol

[BertBert]

I've not much to add about the spec questions as people have covered those quite well.

For hiring one, it only took me about a minute driving to decide I wanted one quite a few years ago. Then you are left with a more power or less power than what I'm currently in question. I reckon an hour getting used to the hire car will answer this.

Lastly, normal size or SV. Again easy with a hire car.

Given that waiting times for new cars are big, it turns into more of what you can get rather than getting your ideal spec and colour.

That's how I'd do it.

In terms of forums, they're fine. Just rejoined C7 club and blatchat is good. Been very helpful to me with my winter resto. Facebook one is ok, but I don't like the FB format very much. Just personal preference though.

[Paynewright]

I’m a member of the Caterham and Lotus Seven Club - recently renamed to include the Caterham name. You have to be a member to be able to post. There are local monthly meets all over the UK - find your nearest and pop along to chat to owners.

The Caterham forum is like any other, with a handful of interesting characters and some very clever people who offer technical support and knowledge about the cars.

I have a 135bhp K series and find this adequate for road driving.


Re the differential - one option is a Quaife torque bias diff (ATB). This is not an LSD in the true sense. It is a series of gears which transmit power to the wheel with grip. They are pretty much fit and forget and no special oil/additives needed nor any plates that wear out. They do have their negative points - I’ve seen it written that if you are giving it the beans on a trackday and get air on a curb, when the wheel drops down again it can snap a driveshaft. I’ve not seen anyone report a failure on Blatchat.

The new cars have got very pricey IMHO. Mine is worth high teens and I don’t see spending double on a seven will double the enjoyment. One positive is that generally sevens hold their value - I built mine in 1998 and it cost £16.8k. If you buy a particular car and feel its not got enough power, sell it and move up.

Good luck with the search.

Edited by Paynewright on Wednesday 9th February 09:46

[upsidedownmark]

Hmm.. On LSD, just another opinion. I didn't believe I needed one based on previous experience, I quickly fitted one. Mostly I drive extremely sensibly on road, but I also track. I also drive it whenever I feel like, including cold/wet.

The caterham seems far more prone to spinning the unloaded rear than anything else I've driven. In retrospect, maybe just the way my car was set up. Or maybe the not-really-independent rear is responsible.
On dry, warm days, you probably need to be quite silly to have traction issues, I wouldn't go so far as 'dick'. Probably not advisable road driving though! In any other conditions, particularly cold or moist it's pretty easy to break traction on roundabouts and junctions, and there I really notice the difference.

Plus side - without an LSD it tends to just spin the inside rear / is pretty benign. With an LSD you're noticeably less prone to break traction, but the downside is you need to be a lot more awake when it does, it's rather easy to find some funny (or unfunny) angles. Could be amusing or frightening depending on perspective.

Mine's a plated ZF. Yes, it's agricultural. I'm fortunate mine doesn't seem to bang or chatter - apparently it's not unusual that they do. But then the car isn't exactly class leading for NVH anyway - virtually everything makes its self heard.
I got my ZF secondhand, I believe the current option is by Titan, which seem to have mixed rep for eating themselves - something to do with carbon plates, I think if sintered you're OK.
There are some downsides to the ATB/quaife above for hardcore use, but I think on balance I'd be tempted to go for that due to it's more friendly nature. (ETA - being 'torque biasing' it requires *some* torque in order to 'lock', therefore if you get a wheel airborne it goes open, and when you land it's going to get shocked quite hard. But that probably only matters to people who are smashing kerbs on a regular basis..)

Overall, I like mine with the LSD, and I'd not go back. But YMMV.

ETA - having read more of the thread:

Yep, the caterham is 'playful'. I'd say it's more sticky than my (mk1) MX5 was, and a lot less sticky than the boxster was (excepting on track where the boxster melted tyres and the caterham gets them perfectly sticky). It's more similar to the MX5 in the way it plays. IMO my boxster (986) was actually quite playful, but in a different way. The layout leads to a lot of traction and tendency toward exit understeer; the fun way was to get it to start to oversteer on the way in and then neutralise it with power on the way out. But that's not the sort of thing to play with on the road, and rather easy to mess up..

Edited by upsidedownmark on Wednesday 9th February 11:23

[DCL]

On the forum front - I would try them all, but be extremely careful of the politics and hidden motives behind some of them. I am an admin for a couple of the technical ones. All I will say is that great deal of time is spent vetting requests to join, ensuring post don't degenerate into a slanging matches, and keeping Godwin's law at bay.

Most people are genuine, but social media does have more than its fair share of fake profiles ready to cause mayhem. Don't trust anything you read until you know it's from a good source. Good information has a value and professionals in the business don't have to prove anything, and seldom post - their work usually speaks on their behalf.

Lotus and Caterham 7 Club, does have some merits (an excellent monthly mag) but the Blatchat can be tiresome - dominated by a few individuals who have limited respect for other opinions. There is good information in there once you filter out the noise.

This Caterham PH section does seem to be one of the better places for balanced discussion.

Edited by DCL on Wednesday 9th February 11:52

[Boggo]

upsidedownmark said:

But that's not the sort of thing to play with on the road, and rather easy to mess up..

This is what I meant by driving like a dick on the road - the road is no place to 'explore the limits of grip' in any car. Book a track day (and if you book a track day you'll probably want an LSD).

Caterhams are incredibly understeer heavy, LSD will only increase this. That's why the ladder only allows them at 310 (which is the 4th rung on the ladder) makign racers learn to keep the car in grip, and managing understeer. When you get to 310 the understeer doubles!


My point on forums was somewhat tounge in cheek - considering we are on a forum.......but maybe that level of sarcasm was above the realms of a a forum?

[upsidedownmark]

I was particularly referring to 'backing it in' for the boxster - it's rather more 'edgy' than the caterham when it goes. But probably worth letting the 'dick' thing die as you say

Interesting you say the Caterham is very understeer biassed(!) I've heard this before, but not found it to be the case, quite the opposite. Maybe because mine's a K series?

[DCL]

In terms of 'over', or 'under' steer, the car can be balanced in anyway you want. The transfer of roll control between the back and front is pretty much your choice - a neutral handling car just needs someone with the right knowledge to set it up. Modern LSDs don't inherently add to understeer as they are sensitive to torque, and the Titan diff (which was designed with the Caterham in mind) has a 90 degree ramp on over-run (theoretically no LSD action).

But there is a a learning curve, and drivers that are new to Caterham's do need to learn that the over/understeer works in the opposite sense to a FWD car. Basically the correct amount of throttle helps counteract any understeer. This is not in anyway playing with the limits, just adjusting the slip angles to give a balanced turn.

[MKnight702]

Funkydunc said:

When I drove a couple of Boxters last year they don’t have LSD but bags of grip. I don’t want bags of grip at stupid speeds, I want a car that you can explore the grip levels a bit more (or am I completely wrong that this is possible in a Caterham on the road)

Edited by Funkydunc on Tuesday 8th February 21:55

Hooray, another person who doesn't equate grip with fun or handling. I used to have a Westfield XI with laughable levels of grip, however, it was the most fun car I have ever owned. Oh, and we also had a Cappuccino many years ago.

[Funkydunc]

MKnight702 said:

Hooray, another person who doesn't equate grip with fun or handling. I used to have a Westfield XI with laughable levels of grip, however, it was the most fun car I have ever owned. Oh, and we also had a Cappuccino many years ago.

So do you own/have you owned a Caterham to compare, against the Cappuccino, will it bring back or exceed the Cappuccino driving pleasure?

The cars I have driven since have never really matched the Cappuccino for me, maybe that's because I was in my early 20's and a bit daft (maybe dick as pointed out above) but it was great fun, lightweight, very little in the way of assistance (even brakes), little grip, nice handling if not a bit unpredictable at times due to the very short wheel base. The Mk3 MX5 2.0 I had later handling very precisely once I got the right suspension on it and geo done, but it was just dull in comparison with no character (lack of power aside). I've recently gone from a fast 3 series to Merc E class that made the 3 series feel like sports car in comparison, but the 3 series was never a sports car, just a fast saloon car. Again no character. The 981 definitely had character, but there is no way you could explore that character on the road.

[BertBert]

MKnight702 said:

Hooray, another person who doesn't equate grip with fun or handling. I used to have a Westfield XI with laughable levels of grip, however, it was the most fun car I have ever owned. Oh, and we also had a Cappuccino many years ago.

That's a good point, always wanted a Westfield 11!

[MKnight702]

BertBert said:

That's a good point, always wanted a Westfield 11!

Do it, don't get hung up on the modern obsession with power, balance is what you need. I had skinny little van tyres on, spent all day dancing the car round the track and they looked untouched. One of the other Westfields had on the sticky track day tyres, he went home having gone through the rubber, then the canvas, then the rubber and was most of the was through the steel. Yes he may have been faster, but I doubt he had more fun and his tyres cost a lot more than my £30 per corner.