road legal track Cat. my first Caterham
Discussion
Getting my first Caterham in the next few months. Decisions to be made!.
It’ll be a road legal track car, and will in reality do very few road miles. I might even get a trailer.
I’ve driven a few, mostly 140hp Sigmas from MSV or CDX. I also had a great Brands GP day with a Boss Racing R400 D. I didn’t think an R400 was “necessary”, but that car felt just right on the GP circuit. The 140hp Sigma I drove on the Indy a few weeks later was nice, but a little slow by comparison.
My initial thoughts for my own car are:
K series 160. I think the K is a classic engine, and with TBs would be a lovely drive. My concern now is that it’s getting old and there’s ethanol issues too (?).
Sigma, at least a later (and rare) 152 or possibly some other mods to give a 140 a little more zest.
Duratec. Not my favourite engine, but with a track car it’s more just a PU rather than an emotive thing. RBs certainly liven it up.
this will be about 7-10k more, I understand that.
My local circuit is Thruxton. Not my favourite, but I’m not driving on public roads too far, so I’ll be visiting regularly before I get a trailer. Although it’s a fast circuit, I think 150hp round there will be fine. The R400 was really useful punching past traffic at Brands, but Thruxton is very open. Also, more speed can become a little scary round Church & Goodwood, and it is my car this time.
Spec thoughts:
Dry sump
LSD (which?)
Tillets
Lowered floors
Track day roll bar minimum
13” wheels
5 or 6 speed? not sure why 6 needed?
I'd be happy with 140-160hp, but as I felt so at home in the Boss R400 I wonder whether I should just focus on that? I'm not normally someone who focuses on power at all, but this is a track car.
It’ll be a road legal track car, and will in reality do very few road miles. I might even get a trailer.
I’ve driven a few, mostly 140hp Sigmas from MSV or CDX. I also had a great Brands GP day with a Boss Racing R400 D. I didn’t think an R400 was “necessary”, but that car felt just right on the GP circuit. The 140hp Sigma I drove on the Indy a few weeks later was nice, but a little slow by comparison.
My initial thoughts for my own car are:
K series 160. I think the K is a classic engine, and with TBs would be a lovely drive. My concern now is that it’s getting old and there’s ethanol issues too (?).
Sigma, at least a later (and rare) 152 or possibly some other mods to give a 140 a little more zest.
Duratec. Not my favourite engine, but with a track car it’s more just a PU rather than an emotive thing. RBs certainly liven it up.
this will be about 7-10k more, I understand that.
My local circuit is Thruxton. Not my favourite, but I’m not driving on public roads too far, so I’ll be visiting regularly before I get a trailer. Although it’s a fast circuit, I think 150hp round there will be fine. The R400 was really useful punching past traffic at Brands, but Thruxton is very open. Also, more speed can become a little scary round Church & Goodwood, and it is my car this time.
Spec thoughts:
Dry sump
LSD (which?)
Tillets
Lowered floors
Track day roll bar minimum
13” wheels
5 or 6 speed? not sure why 6 needed?
I'd be happy with 140-160hp, but as I felt so at home in the Boss R400 I wonder whether I should just focus on that? I'm not normally someone who focuses on power at all, but this is a track car.
I've owned two 7s, the first was a 2001 K Series powered Superlight and my current car is a Duratec powered R300. Although my usage is a bit more road biased than you, our usage cases and ideas on spec seem very similar.
The Superlight I had was upgraded by the previous owner to be identical to an R300K ie 1.8 K series engine on RBs and light weight flywheel, running 160bhp. I upgraded it by adding a (gold pump) dry sump system. My current 2012 year R300D is identical to a newer 360R (so is running 180bhp) but has a dry sump system too which I had fitted by Caterham. Readers cars threads for the K Series Superlight is here and for the R300D is here. Both cars are/were fitted with the 6 speed box.
The K series car was great, light on it's feet and the RBs made a superb noise. The power was all made at ~5k rpm and above so you had to be in the right gear and rev the nuts off it to get it to go quickly. Great fun and super engaging. Downsides were the fact it felt fragile and I did need an engine rebuild after a missed gear change at Castle Combe such was the fragility of the pistons and the fact that the rev limit is a bit ambitious for the engine.
My current Duratec car is quicker by some margin. Not just the extra 20bhp, but it's much torquier and anything over ~3.5k rpm gives instant acceleration. I don't have RBs on it and I do miss the noise, but I prefer the torque on track and find I can more easily extract the performance coming out of corners.
I think you are on the right lines with your spec thoughts. K Series dry sump kits are like rocking horse s
t to get hold of now, so if you want a K Series car then buy one with it already fitted. Duratec kits should be still available but worth checking. The R300D/360R doesn't have it as standard but the R400D/420R does. I fitted a mechanical oil pressure gauge on my K Series car and it scared the crap out me how much the oil pressure dipped on right hand corners. I believe the Duratecs are less affected by hard cornering, but I still didn't want to take the chance.
Tillets, lowered floors, track day roll bar and 13s: yes on all accounts. Others may disagree but all have there place IMO especially the 13s which make the car more predictable on the limit.
LSD is a tricky one, some love them and some don't. Personally it was a must for me but my Titan LSD in the current car failed at 13k miles like so may do. It's a massive can of worms but suffice to say Titan LSDs fitted after about 2013/4 seem to fail as the plates are carbon coated. I replaced mine with a TracSport LSD last year and it's been fantastic. Not cheap but very worthwhile.
Finally, I'm not a million miles away from you if you're near Thruxton so you're welcome to come and see my car and chat through the various options. Just drop me a PM.
The Superlight I had was upgraded by the previous owner to be identical to an R300K ie 1.8 K series engine on RBs and light weight flywheel, running 160bhp. I upgraded it by adding a (gold pump) dry sump system. My current 2012 year R300D is identical to a newer 360R (so is running 180bhp) but has a dry sump system too which I had fitted by Caterham. Readers cars threads for the K Series Superlight is here and for the R300D is here. Both cars are/were fitted with the 6 speed box.
The K series car was great, light on it's feet and the RBs made a superb noise. The power was all made at ~5k rpm and above so you had to be in the right gear and rev the nuts off it to get it to go quickly. Great fun and super engaging. Downsides were the fact it felt fragile and I did need an engine rebuild after a missed gear change at Castle Combe such was the fragility of the pistons and the fact that the rev limit is a bit ambitious for the engine.
My current Duratec car is quicker by some margin. Not just the extra 20bhp, but it's much torquier and anything over ~3.5k rpm gives instant acceleration. I don't have RBs on it and I do miss the noise, but I prefer the torque on track and find I can more easily extract the performance coming out of corners.
I think you are on the right lines with your spec thoughts. K Series dry sump kits are like rocking horse s
t to get hold of now, so if you want a K Series car then buy one with it already fitted. Duratec kits should be still available but worth checking. The R300D/360R doesn't have it as standard but the R400D/420R does. I fitted a mechanical oil pressure gauge on my K Series car and it scared the crap out me how much the oil pressure dipped on right hand corners. I believe the Duratecs are less affected by hard cornering, but I still didn't want to take the chance.Tillets, lowered floors, track day roll bar and 13s: yes on all accounts. Others may disagree but all have there place IMO especially the 13s which make the car more predictable on the limit.
LSD is a tricky one, some love them and some don't. Personally it was a must for me but my Titan LSD in the current car failed at 13k miles like so may do. It's a massive can of worms but suffice to say Titan LSDs fitted after about 2013/4 seem to fail as the plates are carbon coated. I replaced mine with a TracSport LSD last year and it's been fantastic. Not cheap but very worthwhile.
Finally, I'm not a million miles away from you if you're near Thruxton so you're welcome to come and see my car and chat through the various options. Just drop me a PM.
420R, every time. It has the extra grunt for getting past traffic and enough to make accelerating out of bends something that needs a bit of finesse, and has a reasonable top end for those long(ish) straights. Otherwise after a few track days you'll be wondering about how to get a bit of extra power out of it.
I admit to a degree of bias in that I have one, but I've driven R300's 400's and 620R's on the track and it's without doubt the best option for the price in my opinion. Good luck with whatever you decide, there's nothing better out there for the track than a Caterham, whatever the spec.
I admit to a degree of bias in that I have one, but I've driven R300's 400's and 620R's on the track and it's without doubt the best option for the price in my opinion. Good luck with whatever you decide, there's nothing better out there for the track than a Caterham, whatever the spec.
The very best option is 135-140 bhp. That's all you need. Also you will keep with sensible 6" wheels and get some nice forgiving slides.
There's no need for big power. Bigger power does not equal more fun. Even with more power the straights on race tracks are pretty boring. The fun is in the corners.
Bert
There's no need for big power. Bigger power does not equal more fun. Even with more power the straights on race tracks are pretty boring. The fun is in the corners.
Bert
I agree with BertBert. My mate who owns an R500K shared a drive in mine (1.6k supersport 135bhp) at Cadwell and really enjoyed it. All of the power was exploitable. We chatted and decided 160bhp would be optimal!
There is a nice ‘numbered’ superlight at PTSportscars for sensible money alas no drysump. Also look at GPsevens, Millwood and Sevens and Classics. Not many cars appearing for sale in the owners club currently.
Its also good to get along to your local club meet and chat with owners about what options work and what doesn’t. I think if I’d taken advice I’d have bought one of the original Superlights. Still happy with mine 24 years later :-)
There is a nice ‘numbered’ superlight at PTSportscars for sensible money alas no drysump. Also look at GPsevens, Millwood and Sevens and Classics. Not many cars appearing for sale in the owners club currently.
Its also good to get along to your local club meet and chat with owners about what options work and what doesn’t. I think if I’d taken advice I’d have bought one of the original Superlights. Still happy with mine 24 years later :-)
I'm not sure what the current situation is but in the past Caterham's have tended to fall foul of the strict noise limits at Thruxton which currently has a static noise test of under 90db. Although they have raced there the noise limit for trackdays is much lower. Might be worth a little investigation......
BertBert said:
The very best option is 135-140 bhp. That's all you need. Also you will keep with sensible 6" wheels and get some nice forgiving slides.
There's no need for big power. Bigger power does not equal more fun. Even with more power the straights on race tracks are pretty boring. The fun is in the corners.
Bert
I get this, I do! I have an "underpowered" Elise and a supercharged Evora. Elise is a keeper and is by far the most B road fun. Caterham's aren't about the straights, but more speed brings additional challenges of braking and corner exit. this is a track car after all.There's no need for big power. Bigger power does not equal more fun. Even with more power the straights on race tracks are pretty boring. The fun is in the corners.
Bert
I also see jm doc's view - to be able to dispatch traffic and also master the technique of power on exit that more power demands. That said, your point about 6" wheels is also valid. I think I slid around more in the Sigma than I did in the R400, I was driving that more like a scalpel that needed respect.
I reckon 160-180 might be a sweet spot. That extra or so 30hp is more relevant for track use than road.
140 Sign or 220 Duratec would both be fine and no regrets either way. this is like deciding about which year after choosing the finest Bordeaux. Any views on the K? is that getting too stretched and temperamental with TBs at 160?
Paynewright said:
There is a nice ‘numbered’ superlight at PTSportscars for sensible money alas no drysump.
the yellow one?I'm leaning towards newer because if prices are so flat and not age related then why not, more components will be fresh. I realise that condition is everything, but all other things being equal, a newer car has fresher parts. A 160hp K 1.8 could be tempting, but that might be heading into more problems too.
The dry sump is essential, from what other Caterham owners report.
proper seating is needed for track cars, and those seats are for road use. In fact, I wonder about a 'foamectomy' on Tilets for comfort and secure positioning.
CABC said:
the yellow one?
I'm leaning towards newer because if prices are so flat and not age related then why not, more components will be fresh. I realise that condition is everything, but all other things being equal, a newer car has fresher parts. A 160hp K 1.8 could be tempting, but that might be heading into more problems too.
The dry sump is essential, from what other Caterham owners report.
proper seating is needed for track cars, and those seats are for road use. In fact, I wonder about a 'foamectomy' on Tilets for comfort and secure positioning.
The 'proper' seating argument doesn't hold as much for a caterham as for most cars. Depending on the size of your butt, you're quite firmly located between the transmission tunnel and the side of the car, in a S3 at least. The seat and car are about the same width.I'm leaning towards newer because if prices are so flat and not age related then why not, more components will be fresh. I realise that condition is everything, but all other things being equal, a newer car has fresher parts. A 160hp K 1.8 could be tempting, but that might be heading into more problems too.
The dry sump is essential, from what other Caterham owners report.
proper seating is needed for track cars, and those seats are for road use. In fact, I wonder about a 'foamectomy' on Tilets for comfort and secure positioning.
No foam in a tillet? If you mean the leathers, then there's no real depth of foam to remove (having done a foamectomy on an old mx5 in the past, I assume this is what you mean). Tillets are nicer and more supportive, particularly up around the shoulders.
upsidedownmark said:
The 'proper' seating argument doesn't hold as much for a caterham as for most cars. Depending on the size of your butt, you're quite firmly located between the transmission tunnel and the side of the car, in a S3 at least. The seat and car are about the same width.
No foam in a tillet? If you mean the leathers, then there's no real depth of foam to remove (having done a foamectomy on an old mx5 in the past, I assume this is what you mean). Tillets are nicer and more supportive, particularly up around the shoulders.
Thanks No foam in a tillet? If you mean the leathers, then there's no real depth of foam to remove (having done a foamectomy on an old mx5 in the past, I assume this is what you mean). Tillets are nicer and more supportive, particularly up around the shoulders.
upsidedownmark said:
The 'proper' seating argument doesn't hold as much for a caterham as for most cars. Depending on the size of your butt, you're quite firmly located between the transmission tunnel and the side of the car, in a S3 at least. The seat and car are about the same width.
Looks like I'm in the mood to contradict today 
I think having proper bucket seats in a Caterham is by far the best upgrade you can do!BertBert said:
upsidedownmark said:
The 'proper' seating argument doesn't hold as much for a caterham as for most cars. Depending on the size of your butt, you're quite firmly located between the transmission tunnel and the side of the car, in a S3 at least. The seat and car are about the same width.
Looks like I'm in the mood to contradict today I think having proper bucket seats in a Caterham is by far the best upgrade you can do!I've never driven a Caterham around Thruxton but I have done some single seater stuff and you really need to be looking at final gear options as well as BHP for that huge back straight (basically Village / Church thru to Club) otherwise you're going to get bored very quickly around there.
Chris-ylc29 said:
I've never driven a Caterham around Thruxton but I have done some single seater stuff and you really need to be looking at final gear options as well as BHP for that huge back straight (basically Village / Church thru to Club) otherwise you're going to get bored very quickly around there.
I've driven their own Renault single seaters there, yep, pretty boring at the back banging the rev limiter in top!as I said in op, it's not my favourite circuit but as it's so local I'll happily cruise round the back section to enjoy the chicane and complex. I'd be very relaxed about that.
My dilemma around power is more related to tracks like Brands or Dony, where you can get trapped amongst cars that hold you up but can't get passed. for Cadwell, less power would be acceptable too. I've always been able to find space there.
BertBert said:
Looks like I'm in the mood to contradict today I think having proper bucket seats in a Caterham is by far the best upgrade you can do!
Fair enough I think having proper bucket seats in a Caterham is by far the best upgrade you can do! I'd maintain it's a lot less of an issue than in a more conventional car, it took me about 18 months to lean on it hard enough to see the limitations, then I did upgrade to tillets. They're definitely a nice improvement.(Maybe you're a bit skinnier than me
)upsidedownmark said:
Fair enough I'd maintain it's a lot less of an issue than in a more conventional car, it took me about 18 months to lean on it hard enough to see the limitations, then I did upgrade to tillets. They're definitely a nice improvement.
(Maybe you're a bit skinnier than me )
Possibly, I generally need expanded foam inserts even in race seats, being a 60kg weakling I'd maintain it's a lot less of an issue than in a more conventional car, it took me about 18 months to lean on it hard enough to see the limitations, then I did upgrade to tillets. They're definitely a nice improvement.(Maybe you're a bit skinnier than me
)Update on search.
I was looking at a Sigma 150, but that's gone now.
However, in the process it looks like those cc TBs weren't very good!
My thoughts now lean towards a Superlight 140 - good value, more choice and it's a lovely engine.
Then fit a light flywheel for extra sprightly feel.
if I want more go then Premier Power have some very well engineered packages, not cheap but a good solution & reputation.
on the topic of dry sumps, I'm reading they aren't needed for below 200hp on non-slicks....
I was looking at a Sigma 150, but that's gone now.
However, in the process it looks like those cc TBs weren't very good!
My thoughts now lean towards a Superlight 140 - good value, more choice and it's a lovely engine.
Then fit a light flywheel for extra sprightly feel.
if I want more go then Premier Power have some very well engineered packages, not cheap but a good solution & reputation.
on the topic of dry sumps, I'm reading they aren't needed for below 200hp on non-slicks....
Owned two caterham, both k series. One was 140bhp, current one 200bhp. Both 6 speed. Extra bhp on track well worth it as with 140bhp could catch cars on braking and corners only to struggle to get past on the straights if they don’t lift as they don’t recognise you’re faster over a lap. For road use 140bhp is enough until you find a fast diesel hatch!! Both k series been totally reliable, just let it warm up to oil temp before me giving it any revs or full throttle.
Previous caterham had tillets and current has leather. I do miss the tillets for track use so would recommend them.
Matt
Previous caterham had tillets and current has leather. I do miss the tillets for track use so would recommend them.
Matt
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