Discussion
Hi
Anyone had both or driven both? I am on the look out for a nearly new car and wondering if there is anything to choose between them or if I will notice much difference? I know sometimes the lower powered car can be a better drive and sometimes you want as much power as possible! I am sure both would be fin but interested to hear if people have a view one way or the other.
Thanks
Anyone had both or driven both? I am on the look out for a nearly new car and wondering if there is anything to choose between them or if I will notice much difference? I know sometimes the lower powered car can be a better drive and sometimes you want as much power as possible! I am sure both would be fin but interested to hear if people have a view one way or the other.
Thanks
There's a general consensus that the 420R has a much more exciting power delivery than that in the 360R level of tune.
I've not driven a 360R so cant give you a comparison to my 420R (with RBTBs), however a few years ago I was in contact with an owner of a Supersport R, which is the same engine as the 360R, who then upgraded to 420R (RBTB) spec. This is what he said regarding the difference:
"The intake and exhaust beforehand had no character whatsoever so I initially enquired to Caterham about a Cat bypass. They said it didn’t make any real difference but if I wanted character the roller barrels were the way forward. Once I’d booked that in, it seemed to make financial sense (major man maths!) to do the R400 upgrade at the same time.
What a difference. It’s a beast now. The sound of intake and exhaust are incredible - proper race car stuff. The performance difference is huge too. It’s only a 40hp upgrade so I wasn’t expecting too much but it’s mega. Higher redline and it really pays to use it all BUT the road conditions have to be right. The 180hp was pretty much useable on most dry roads - you could use the full throttle pedal travel whenever you wanted. With 220hp you need to be a bit more thoughtful. I had to learn to drive it all over again. It still has the lotus go kart handling but now with serious grunt. I haven’t tried it on the track but I imagine it would be rather fun!"
That being said, if the right 360R came up for sale, you could buy it and upgrade the engine to 420R spec easily.
I've not driven a 360R so cant give you a comparison to my 420R (with RBTBs), however a few years ago I was in contact with an owner of a Supersport R, which is the same engine as the 360R, who then upgraded to 420R (RBTB) spec. This is what he said regarding the difference:
"The intake and exhaust beforehand had no character whatsoever so I initially enquired to Caterham about a Cat bypass. They said it didn’t make any real difference but if I wanted character the roller barrels were the way forward. Once I’d booked that in, it seemed to make financial sense (major man maths!) to do the R400 upgrade at the same time.
What a difference. It’s a beast now. The sound of intake and exhaust are incredible - proper race car stuff. The performance difference is huge too. It’s only a 40hp upgrade so I wasn’t expecting too much but it’s mega. Higher redline and it really pays to use it all BUT the road conditions have to be right. The 180hp was pretty much useable on most dry roads - you could use the full throttle pedal travel whenever you wanted. With 220hp you need to be a bit more thoughtful. I had to learn to drive it all over again. It still has the lotus go kart handling but now with serious grunt. I haven’t tried it on the track but I imagine it would be rather fun!"
That being said, if the right 360R came up for sale, you could buy it and upgrade the engine to 420R spec easily.
DjSki said:
Don't buy a new car, buy my Supersport R with only 5k miles and a factory "420R" tune to 210bhp......about £8/10k less than a 420R. Send me a message if interested.
So you can buy a 420R? 
Seriously, I would say I’d you're having the Duratec you may was well have 210/220bhp.
You’d have none of the advantages of the lighter Sigma, so may was well have more power.
My R400 is 220/175lbs ft. It would be a handful if you tried to use all that on the road but it’s very easy to drive steadily. The torque means you can skip gears, be in 6th at 40 and pootle along as you like.
But with full power, or on track, it does go like the proverbial.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 7th September 21:27
I have a 360R upgraded to 420r with throttle bodies and the difference is indeed night and day. On the other hand comparing a standard 360r to a standard 420r I don’t think the difference is so stark. The RBTB’s make quite a difference to the engine.
The 360r was plenty fast enough but didn’t sound as good. Depending on what cars you are coming from even a 360r will be a shock to the system.
The 360r was plenty fast enough but didn’t sound as good. Depending on what cars you are coming from even a 360r will be a shock to the system.
Have you considered a 310R with a six speed gearbox?
Having had a 310R with a five speed and then upgraded to the 360R and then upgraded that to 210bhp i would say that the 310R is the sweet spot and probably a lot more dun in 6 speed guise. The Duratecs are faster but that only means you have to lift earlier when on the road, the 310R is a revier and more engaging engine. The 210bhp engine is brutal and way more than needed on the road (imho)
Having had a 310R with a five speed and then upgraded to the 360R and then upgraded that to 210bhp i would say that the 310R is the sweet spot and probably a lot more dun in 6 speed guise. The Duratecs are faster but that only means you have to lift earlier when on the road, the 310R is a revier and more engaging engine. The 210bhp engine is brutal and way more than needed on the road (imho)
A 310R with 6-speed....and ideally 6" rear wheels, would be a great shout.
To the OP mentioning "greater power to exploit the chassis", setup and driving style will have a far greater impact on chassis dynamics than just power alone. I have a 420R (220bhp) however I would say it's no more exploitable than my previous Supersport (140bhp) which was on 6" rears. That thing could slide everywhere, or happily stick to the chosen line, purely down to steering inputs and throttle application.
To the OP mentioning "greater power to exploit the chassis", setup and driving style will have a far greater impact on chassis dynamics than just power alone. I have a 420R (220bhp) however I would say it's no more exploitable than my previous Supersport (140bhp) which was on 6" rears. That thing could slide everywhere, or happily stick to the chosen line, purely down to steering inputs and throttle application.
i've driven many a Caterham, mostly on track, but never owned or lived with one beyond a day. I used to think that a 300 superlight would be my ideal but now i'm not so sure. in the last 2 weeks i've driven an MSV track car (135 Sigma) and a race prepped 220hp R400 at Brands. Not only do i believe i need the extra power but the Duratec felt very alive in that spec. i think i've driven a 180 variant and was left feeling it to be leaden.
this is on track, you 'need' way less power on the road of course. OP didn't specify usage.
this is on track, you 'need' way less power on the road of course. OP didn't specify usage.
Hadn't thought of a 310R with 6 speed but that sounds a lot of fun for the road. What makes the engine more energetic? I have heard the 360 engine is a little dull at the top.
I agree you can never have enough power on track but I think road use is the priority for me and that sounds good.
I agree you can never have enough power on track but I think road use is the priority for me and that sounds good.
blackmamba said:
Hadn't thought of a 310R with 6 speed but that sounds a lot of fun for the road. What makes the engine more energetic? I have heard the 360 engine is a little dull at the top.
I agree you can never have enough power on track but I think road use is the priority for me and that sounds good.
I’m not sure it is ‘more energetic’ though I’ve not driven a 360. The 310 has a lower rev limit than the 420, 7500 v 7600 (I understand) and max power is lower too 7000, v 7300 odd. Maybe the car feels a little livelier because the Duratec engine is quite a bit heavier than the Sigma?I agree you can never have enough power on track but I think road use is the priority for me and that sounds good.
The big + for a Duratec is that there’s more power at lower revs, IMO.
There was a good article in EVO when they were choosing what Caterham to get. There is a summary here: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.evo.co.uk/cater...
But I remember the original published in the magazine being a lot more useful in terms of driving feel if you can find a copy.
But I remember the original published in the magazine being a lot more useful in terms of driving feel if you can find a copy.
nudgerwilliams said:
Apologies for jumping in on this thread, but a related topic. A friend of mine is specing a new 420R. What are opinions on upgraded vented / 4 piston calipers versus standard solid / 2 piston?
Thanks
David
Earlier this year I specced a 360R as a kit build for a winter project. The chassis and a van load of cardboard boxes are due to arrive in the next few weeks.Thanks
David
The spec was discussed in detail with the guys at Lotus Silverstone who were very helpful and pointed me in the right direction for a fun road car that could be used on track and hill climb without getting too serious, at this stage.
I’ve included the spec below. It may not be that readable but in combination with the Caterham Confgurator should help.
Big issues are standard or wider chassis. I went standard. Lowered floor is recommended. Upgrade brakes to ventilated £695 well spent. Trackday roll bar. Battery master cut off which is wired in by the factory if doing a kit build. Painted headlamp bowls are not on the configurator but can be added by the dealer.
I do t think the big brakes are at all essential, even if tracking, though they look good and are nice to have.
I have them and even on track days they rarely get very hot and pad wear is minimal. I have acquaintances with 420s on standard brakes and they work fine.
If money is tight they’d be dispensable for me, I’d sooner have the dry sump set up and forgo the brakes and something else if necessary, though I know some track wet sump car’s without issue.
They do look good though........
I have them and even on track days they rarely get very hot and pad wear is minimal. I have acquaintances with 420s on standard brakes and they work fine.
If money is tight they’d be dispensable for me, I’d sooner have the dry sump set up and forgo the brakes and something else if necessary, though I know some track wet sump car’s without issue.
They do look good though........
REALIST123 said:
I do t think the big brakes are at all essential, even if tracking, though they look good and are nice to have.
I have them and even on track days they rarely get very hot and pad wear is minimal. I have acquaintances with 420s on standard brakes and they work fine.
If money is tight they’d be dispensable for me, I’d sooner have the dry sump set up and forgo the brakes and something else if necessary, though I know some track wet sump car’s without issue.
They do look good though........
Hard to disagree about the dry sump but as this is partly a build project, I thought it would be a good follow on retrofit for next winter. As it happens, I acquired a “free” engine stand when buying the hoist so it would be a shame not to use it. Cost wise there is not a lot in it as Caterham have the dry sump kit for around the same price as the cost of the option when speccing new though no doubt there will be additional incidental costs. I have them and even on track days they rarely get very hot and pad wear is minimal. I have acquaintances with 420s on standard brakes and they work fine.
If money is tight they’d be dispensable for me, I’d sooner have the dry sump set up and forgo the brakes and something else if necessary, though I know some track wet sump car’s without issue.
They do look good though........
...and as you say the brakes do look good
lowndes said:
REALIST123 said:
I do t think the big brakes are at all essential, even if tracking, though they look good and are nice to have.
I have them and even on track days they rarely get very hot and pad wear is minimal. I have acquaintances with 420s on standard brakes and they work fine.
If money is tight they’d be dispensable for me, I’d sooner have the dry sump set up and forgo the brakes and something else if necessary, though I know some track wet sump car’s without issue.
They do look good though........
Hard to disagree about the dry sump but as this is partly a build project, I thought it would be a good follow on retrofit for next winter. As it happens, I acquired a “free” engine stand when buying the hoist so it would be a shame not to use it. Cost wise there is not a lot in it as Caterham have the dry sump kit for around the same price as the cost of the option when speccing new though no doubt there will be additional incidental costs. I have them and even on track days they rarely get very hot and pad wear is minimal. I have acquaintances with 420s on standard brakes and they work fine.
If money is tight they’d be dispensable for me, I’d sooner have the dry sump set up and forgo the brakes and something else if necessary, though I know some track wet sump car’s without issue.
They do look good though........
...and as you say the brakes do look good
Your call though.
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