R500 k reliability
Discussion
Hi everybody,
I m thinking to buy a cat r500 with the k rover serie engine. I understand that 230cv from this small base is a lot and that is an engine that need a lot of care (very used to that with all my previous cars). But i can see very different purposes in each forum i look. Sometimes it s 6000 or 8000£ rebuild each 10'000miles, sometimes 1000£ rebuild each 20'000 or 30'000miles. Please now the engine is there for a bit of time, could you please tell me an average frequency of when rebuild is needed? An average cost ? What s the comparsion with the cost of runing a simple regular kserie or a vvt? For the parts? The labour needed?
I saw that for a lot the vhpd is unreliable due to the tuners approximate work (like in the first lotus) and saw that minister did a great work... is that right? How reliable are they?
It will be mostly for enthusiast street driving and maybe i ll not even track it (very far from any track) so i think i'll avoid the 8'000-9'200, and keep it down 7'000most of time (after long heating period). Do you think in these condition it will be less reliable than a vvt k serie?
I'm switching from a rv8 500chim, so not the most reliable thing ever but enough to get 60'000 without any need for engine rebuilt, am i going to be in more trouble water or i stay safe?
Thank for your help!
I m thinking to buy a cat r500 with the k rover serie engine. I understand that 230cv from this small base is a lot and that is an engine that need a lot of care (very used to that with all my previous cars). But i can see very different purposes in each forum i look. Sometimes it s 6000 or 8000£ rebuild each 10'000miles, sometimes 1000£ rebuild each 20'000 or 30'000miles. Please now the engine is there for a bit of time, could you please tell me an average frequency of when rebuild is needed? An average cost ? What s the comparsion with the cost of runing a simple regular kserie or a vvt? For the parts? The labour needed?
I saw that for a lot the vhpd is unreliable due to the tuners approximate work (like in the first lotus) and saw that minister did a great work... is that right? How reliable are they?
It will be mostly for enthusiast street driving and maybe i ll not even track it (very far from any track) so i think i'll avoid the 8'000-9'200, and keep it down 7'000most of time (after long heating period). Do you think in these condition it will be less reliable than a vvt k serie?
I'm switching from a rv8 500chim, so not the most reliable thing ever but enough to get 60'000 without any need for engine rebuilt, am i going to be in more trouble water or i stay safe?
Thank for your help!
I'm sure the R500k is a great car and I guess it will almost certainly go up in value. Me I think I'd buy the R400 with the bomb proof Duratec, as least you'll be able to sleep at night.
If your looking something frantic give Stuart at Premier Power a call at get a ride in his 1.6 Sigma 200 + Hp
Terry
If your looking something frantic give Stuart at Premier Power a call at get a ride in his 1.6 Sigma 200 + Hp
Terry
Two years ago we sold a 1991 S3 that came out of the US, LHD car that had been fitted with a 2.0 BDP Cosworth taken out of a Formula Atlantic/ F2. The car was ballistic, 11,500 rpm. The guy we sold it to was a Dentist in Quebec and used it for occasional street use and several track days. This was a very serious car.
The engine started manifesting a top end rattle. The motor was removed and sent to Steve Jennings the top US engine builder of these engines, quote, $32,000.00 the owner had it box up and then sent back to us. We did the motor, or should I say people we know and us, $26.000.00. Dyno at 274 BHP at 10,400 rpm, the car was very lively.
Keep in mind that one day the R500k will go bang and the bill will only get bigger, if you've got deep pockets and repair bills are no concern, BUY IT, if not as previously said the R400 Duratec is a great car.
Just trying to save you PAIN
The engine started manifesting a top end rattle. The motor was removed and sent to Steve Jennings the top US engine builder of these engines, quote, $32,000.00 the owner had it box up and then sent back to us. We did the motor, or should I say people we know and us, $26.000.00. Dyno at 274 BHP at 10,400 rpm, the car was very lively.
Keep in mind that one day the R500k will go bang and the bill will only get bigger, if you've got deep pockets and repair bills are no concern, BUY IT, if not as previously said the R400 Duratec is a great car.
Just trying to save you PAIN
You are probably best speaking to a long term R500 k owner but I looked into an R500k many years ago and got scared off but it was in the days of Minister when they were supplying to Caterham. Anything that went back to Minister for refresh or repair came out with a hefty bill. The original R500s had a higher rev limit >9000 I believe but this was brought down to <9000 after some failures. I think many of the early owners used them almost exclusively on track and therefore the engines needed regular refreshes, hence they were thought of as expensive to own and run.
Nowadays Minister have gone and I understand the man to go to is Dave Andrews who seems to have sorted most of the issues on cars in this state of tune, and probably charges a lot less than Minister. As you say it is a highly tuned engine so needs careful warming and cool down and regular maintenance and if you are using it mainly for road at <8000 rpm I don't see why it would not last for quite a few miles between rebuilds.
Nowadays Minister have gone and I understand the man to go to is Dave Andrews who seems to have sorted most of the issues on cars in this state of tune, and probably charges a lot less than Minister. As you say it is a highly tuned engine so needs careful warming and cool down and regular maintenance and if you are using it mainly for road at <8000 rpm I don't see why it would not last for quite a few miles between rebuilds.
Forgive me OP as I'm not really answering your question, but if you aren't going on a track and aren't going to be taking it much beyond 7k rpm, is there any point getting an R500k? It was made as a highly strung no-compromise weapon for the track, if that's not your interest it kind of seems the wrong car for your needs.
You can get very fast K engined Caterhams such as SLR and R400k that aren't as highly strung as an R500k, so will be more reliable and more usable on the road, but still hold their value very well (assuming this is a factor). Heck a 1.8k VVC at around 160bhp will be plenty for road only duties, if you get a thirst for a bit more power you can then speak to a K tuner like DVA.
You can get very fast K engined Caterhams such as SLR and R400k that aren't as highly strung as an R500k, so will be more reliable and more usable on the road, but still hold their value very well (assuming this is a factor). Heck a 1.8k VVC at around 160bhp will be plenty for road only duties, if you get a thirst for a bit more power you can then speak to a K tuner like DVA.
Surely if you only use 7.5k revs, an R500 will be more durable than a SLR, not less, due to the posh bottom end? There is nothing else that is particularly special, it's just that using 9k revs causes wear. I've had 2 K-series R500s and 2 K-series SLRs and neither scare me regarding running costs if they are looked after.
I was very tempted by the R500 k and when talking to indy garages they all seem to come back with the same answer. Which is you just need to take care of them a bit more but don't be put off. If used on track you should do a engine rebuild every 10k and if road more like 20-30k. But 10k of track use is a lot of years of motoring so doesn't seem to bad for me. Best to talk to somebody like Andy Belcher at tech 7.
I ended up buying a R500D out for the reassurance but a friend of mine just bought a k series superlight R, and on track it seems every bit as fast. Losses a bit at the top end but the corner entry speed is much greater so works out about the same. If you want the k series engine and reassurance. That might be your best bet.
I ended up buying a R500D out for the reassurance but a friend of mine just bought a k series superlight R, and on track it seems every bit as fast. Losses a bit at the top end but the corner entry speed is much greater so works out about the same. If you want the k series engine and reassurance. That might be your best bet.
For a full and frank appraisal of estimated rebuild costs based upon your intended use, I would recommend speaking with Dave Andrews (http://www.dvapower.co.uk/).
If you take care warming the engine up (both the water jacket and the oil temps) before hard use, and limit the very top 500-1000 rpm there is no reason to fear the engine "letting go". Correct setting of the cylinder liner heights along with using steel dowels (to limit head movement on the block) will go a long way to minimising and of the fabled head gasket issues.
Additionally, fitting a modified thermostat which prevents the thermal shock allowed by the stock thermostat would also be a wise investment (can be done for around £50 in parts).
Dave has rebuilt more of these engines than almost anyone else in the UK and is very straightforward to deal with. Hopefully his website will provide some confidence in his approach to engine building.
I have a SLR with 225hp, but at the end of the day, the engine is only making that power in the upper rev ranges. Setting a slightly lower rev limit if you are concerned with the requirement for in depth engine maintenance will be prudent and will not detract from your enjoyment of the car.
Dave can also advise on the latest cams if you want a little bit more than the stock K series R500 offers!
If you take care warming the engine up (both the water jacket and the oil temps) before hard use, and limit the very top 500-1000 rpm there is no reason to fear the engine "letting go". Correct setting of the cylinder liner heights along with using steel dowels (to limit head movement on the block) will go a long way to minimising and of the fabled head gasket issues.
Additionally, fitting a modified thermostat which prevents the thermal shock allowed by the stock thermostat would also be a wise investment (can be done for around £50 in parts).
Dave has rebuilt more of these engines than almost anyone else in the UK and is very straightforward to deal with. Hopefully his website will provide some confidence in his approach to engine building.
I have a SLR with 225hp, but at the end of the day, the engine is only making that power in the upper rev ranges. Setting a slightly lower rev limit if you are concerned with the requirement for in depth engine maintenance will be prudent and will not detract from your enjoyment of the car.
Dave can also advise on the latest cams if you want a little bit more than the stock K series R500 offers!
I have had mine for nearly 3 years. There are plenty of people out there with an opinion based on what the net says - they have never owned the car. If you race or track an R500 a lot then yes iirc Minister said it needed to be rebuilt every 5000 miles or so. Remember when it came out it was the latest thing . In other words unproven - they were also covering their bums and don’t forget Caterham had to give some sort of warranty. The reality is that for road use that number can be multiplied several times. An ex caterham employee who lives locally looked at my car this year and we had a long chat about this and he said the same. The thing is so bloody quick it requires some focus to get it over 9k ! When I bought mine I put a few grand to one side on the basis it might go pop and I don’t think that’s a bad idea but when that gets used is anyone’s guess.
Nice to hear Ziplobb. Seems that although the engine is pushing the envelope a lot of the negative rep K engined 7s, in particular R500k's, get is due to unsympathetic treatment particularly at the hand of journos... the treatment of the Evo R400D kind of proves the point that journos can easily trash a car.
Out of interest how many miles have you done in your R500 and do you track it often?
Out of interest how many miles have you done in your R500 and do you track it often?
I have not used this car anywhere near as much as my previous 7s so far about 1500 miles and 2 trackdays. It’s an awesome car but I don’t have the skills to hustle it on track. The reality is coming from R300 ish power was too much. Nevertheless I love it to bits and for me it represents the ultimate 7 . My son is about to take his driving test and wants to do trackdays so I think I may go back to less power. We will see - he can do a few trackdays in his mums MX5 first.
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