Discussion
Right my intentions of having a sub 10K Caterham have gone. Having owned loads of quick cars over the years Im having a lwt...........so a few things I need to know
Are these cars ok for road use(ie do they snarl up in traffic etc).
RESALE VALUE..........if I buy a new one am I going to blow my brains in, or like most Caterhams do they hold their price well, and is the market for used ones healthy or are they hard work to sell?
Finally is the difference between the 400 and 500 just 20BHP or are there other big differences??
Cheers
Matt
R400 is 200 bhp, R500 is 230bhp
R500 has aerofoil wishbones and carbon seats (both options on the R400)and magnesium bell housing.
R500 can apparently be a bit on the edge of usable, it can foul plugs if you don't catch them on start up.
The R400 is a fair pain in town and I can only imagine an R500 is worse
R500 has aerofoil wishbones and carbon seats (both options on the R400)and magnesium bell housing.
R500 can apparently be a bit on the edge of usable, it can foul plugs if you don't catch them on start up.
The R400 is a fair pain in town and I can only imagine an R500 is worse
I've had both.
R400 for mainly road. R500 for mainly track if I were you. I only have the SLR now.
Both are (capable of being) faster than pretty much anything on track.
A few SLR's/R400s have been coming up lately used, and tey look good value.
Check out Blatchat for a very long thread on a similar subject.
As for them being a pain, if properly set up they run really nicely.
My advice would be to buy used, then set some money aside to have the suspension set up to suit you, an Emerald ECU and perhaps Jenvey throttle bodies. You'll then have a pussy cat round town and a sabre toothed tiger when you plant it.
R400 for mainly road. R500 for mainly track if I were you. I only have the SLR now.
Both are (capable of being) faster than pretty much anything on track.
A few SLR's/R400s have been coming up lately used, and tey look good value.
Check out Blatchat for a very long thread on a similar subject.
As for them being a pain, if properly set up they run really nicely.
My advice would be to buy used, then set some money aside to have the suspension set up to suit you, an Emerald ECU and perhaps Jenvey throttle bodies. You'll then have a pussy cat round town and a sabre toothed tiger when you plant it.
murph7355 said:
I've had both.
My advice would be to buy used, then set some money aside to have the suspension set up to suit you, an Emerald ECU and perhaps Jenvey throttle bodies. You'll then have a pussy cat round town and a sabre toothed tiger when you plant it.
Know where you're comming from on the suspension set up, but why would you rip off the MBE ecu and Roller barrel throttle bodies on an R400 and replace them with Emerald / Jenveys?
Even on an SLR I can se replacing the MEMS with an Emerald, but why replace the throttle bodies?
I was more meaning SLRs with the MEMs and Rover TBs. A well spec'd SLR will offer good value second hand.
The Rover TBs are sub-optimal on the manifold they have.
Emerald and Jenveys are much better.
The MBE is a nice ECU (I had one on my SLRish car), but getting it set up properly is not as straightforward/"good value" as can be had with the Emerald (which I have now).
The Rover TBs are sub-optimal on the manifold they have.
Emerald and Jenveys are much better.
The MBE is a nice ECU (I had one on my SLRish car), but getting it set up properly is not as straightforward/"good value" as can be had with the Emerald (which I have now).
PS I'm not sure there's any empirical evidence that the RBTBs give any noticeable benefit on the K engine over a decent set of std TBs.
There are modified K series cars around without RBTBs (and without MBE ECUs) that give healthier power and a fatter torque curve. This isn't to say that they aren't "nice" parts. Just that there are alternative avenues to the same, or better, result for less moolah.
poorcardealer started off at 10k and has gone up a tad. He doesn't have to go all the way though...
There are modified K series cars around without RBTBs (and without MBE ECUs) that give healthier power and a fatter torque curve. This isn't to say that they aren't "nice" parts. Just that there are alternative avenues to the same, or better, result for less moolah.
poorcardealer started off at 10k and has gone up a tad. He doesn't have to go all the way though...
Sure, I don't believe the RBs are anything magic, no different to the Jenveys in performance to all intents, but you wouldn't remove them if you'd got them. But if you hadn't got them I agree you would buy the Jenveys not the Caterham RBs based on VFM.
The Emerald is a very fine ECU and the obvious choice to replace the MEMS, but again if you've got the MBE, and you can get the unlock code (How do you get that BTW) it can be set up just the same with the Easimap software.
The Emerald is a very fine ECU and the obvious choice to replace the MEMS, but again if you've got the MBE, and you can get the unlock code (How do you get that BTW) it can be set up just the same with the Easimap software.
bertie said:
(How do you get that BTW) it can be set up just the same with the Easimap software.
And there you have the problem!
The unlock code is one issue (probably 1111 or 9999 but you'd have to ask Caterham and then...).
And OK, you have the Easimap software. Now go off and map your engine. Nice and easy.
Then when you have hassle, how many places do you know with expertise?
murph7355 said:
Then when you have hassle, how many places do you know with expertise?
Believe me, Murph's post is based on extensive (expensive?) experience of having his MBE mapped to his engine. Couple of hours of Dave Walker's work at Emerald (plus an Emerald ECU of course) and the car was absolutely transformed.
I also don't think RBs are worth the extra dosh - ISTR the reason for them being on the R400 is for emissions, but I am prepared to be shot down over this!
A well set up SLR is no trouble in traffic either, even the simple act of runnnig it on Optimax sorted out a lot of my cold running/low speed woes, but the standard mapping is junk TBH.
I also think that the R500 offers great value for money - you'd have to pay £315k for Porsche's ultimate road car - you'd only have to find a max of £25k to buy Caterham's...
In the real world, though, I really don't think an R500 is any qicker than an R400/SLR (and some would argue that a Supersprint isn't that much slower than the "R" cars either).
Resale-wise, an SLR/R400/R500 will always be saleable. I made £1k on my SLR when I sold it a year after buying it (but had spent more than that to get it sorted properly).
rubystone said:
Believe me, Murph's post is based on extensive (expensive?) experience of having his MBE mapped to his engine. Couple of hours of Dave Walker's work at Emerald (plus an Emerald ECU of course) and the car was absolutely transformed.
So Murph, did you actualy remove the MBE and replace with an Emerald? Blimey, drastic action. Can Dave Walker not deal with the MBE? I know he's the dogs on Emeralds and I'd have thought they were fundamentaly similar, so I'd assume he could sort the MBE mapping.
SLRs are a different ball game alltogether as they use a modded Rover MEMS which had dreadfull mapping and were a pig to try and do anything with.
Given that MBEs are sold as an aftermarket ECU for motorsport etc I don't see why they should have a problem.
Well it wasn't exactly drastic.
I'd originally intended to put an Emerald on it. Bear in mind that when I first set out upgrading my (1400K SS) engine, the SLR was not too long off the drawing board at Caterham.
Sadly, Emerald didn't have a decent flow of ECUs and the place I was using to build the engine suggested the MBE.
So really, after a good bit of cost, I ended up where it should have been all along (ruby's looking after the car for me whilst I'm away, and we've been mates for a fair while, hence his intimate knowledge of the car!).
Your last statement bertie is bordering on naivety
Windows is sold as a superb operating system. Doesn't make it so
The MBE is a good unit. But the Emerald is, IMO, a much better bet.
Dave Walker could no doubt map a ZX81 if necessary, but he has so much trade with his own (and Karl's) creation that he doesn't have time to do it, nor the inclination any more. And fair play to him for that.
So who else is there with experience?
Minister? There's is the base map for the car. But you'll pay royally for anything more bespoke. And that's IF they want to do it (as they are also somewhat busy).
SBD I believe are OK with the MBE. But they're more a VX engine shop. The K is very different.
There's a place in Wales whose name escapes me who came recommeded. I very nearly went to them for a session. And then saw sense. Took the MBE off and sorted (with ruby's help) the Emerald.
Whilst SLRs may well be a different story, as I understand it the R400 can be a pig in traffic etc. It quite simply does not have to be this way.
Highly tuned engines like this differ from one to the next, so it is unreasonable to expect the same map to work perfectly for them all. Therefore you need the ability to get the map polished off. The MBE, as mentioned above, isn't good for this unless you can map it yourself (IMO).
As for roller barrels, I believe they are put on cars as throttle response is meant to be better, and you in theory get cleaner air flow into the cylinders as there's nothing (like a butterfly) interrupting flow.
From my experience, this is marketing bullshit that might well apply where the very last micro-bhp of power is needed, but for a car like the 7 is barely of any value.
Not convinced about emissions, over and above perhaps Caterham had problems with the old crap manifold and couldn't get Jenvey to enter into a suitably restrictive supply deal (my assumption, no proper facts)...
RBTBs also look nice, but then so do a set of red Jenveys.
So, in answer to poorcardealer's query, if I were getting into a car now, knowing what I know, and I wanted it for a good bit of road use as well as track use, I'd be seriously looking at a well looked after SLR. I'd take to Dave Walker or Dave Andrew and get an Emerald fitted. I'd fit Jenvey TBs. If I wanted to spend a bit more cash, I'd ask the same two guys for advice and potentially end up with an R500 beater, for similar money as the cheapest R500s.
Oh yes, whatever K you buy, get a dry sump. Also, if you go for a newer car, have a good ride out in the Tillet seats. They gave me back ache and made me feel like I wa sat on the car rather than in it. And in winter they make your arse seriously cold!
I'd originally intended to put an Emerald on it. Bear in mind that when I first set out upgrading my (1400K SS) engine, the SLR was not too long off the drawing board at Caterham.
Sadly, Emerald didn't have a decent flow of ECUs and the place I was using to build the engine suggested the MBE.
So really, after a good bit of cost, I ended up where it should have been all along (ruby's looking after the car for me whilst I'm away, and we've been mates for a fair while, hence his intimate knowledge of the car!).
Your last statement bertie is bordering on naivety
Windows is sold as a superb operating system. Doesn't make it so The MBE is a good unit. But the Emerald is, IMO, a much better bet.
Dave Walker could no doubt map a ZX81 if necessary, but he has so much trade with his own (and Karl's) creation that he doesn't have time to do it, nor the inclination any more. And fair play to him for that.
So who else is there with experience?
Minister? There's is the base map for the car. But you'll pay royally for anything more bespoke. And that's IF they want to do it (as they are also somewhat busy).
SBD I believe are OK with the MBE. But they're more a VX engine shop. The K is very different.
There's a place in Wales whose name escapes me who came recommeded. I very nearly went to them for a session. And then saw sense. Took the MBE off and sorted (with ruby's help) the Emerald.
Whilst SLRs may well be a different story, as I understand it the R400 can be a pig in traffic etc. It quite simply does not have to be this way.
Highly tuned engines like this differ from one to the next, so it is unreasonable to expect the same map to work perfectly for them all. Therefore you need the ability to get the map polished off. The MBE, as mentioned above, isn't good for this unless you can map it yourself (IMO).
As for roller barrels, I believe they are put on cars as throttle response is meant to be better, and you in theory get cleaner air flow into the cylinders as there's nothing (like a butterfly) interrupting flow.
From my experience, this is marketing bullshit that might well apply where the very last micro-bhp of power is needed, but for a car like the 7 is barely of any value.
Not convinced about emissions, over and above perhaps Caterham had problems with the old crap manifold and couldn't get Jenvey to enter into a suitably restrictive supply deal (my assumption, no proper facts)...
RBTBs also look nice, but then so do a set of red Jenveys.
So, in answer to poorcardealer's query, if I were getting into a car now, knowing what I know, and I wanted it for a good bit of road use as well as track use, I'd be seriously looking at a well looked after SLR. I'd take to Dave Walker or Dave Andrew and get an Emerald fitted. I'd fit Jenvey TBs. If I wanted to spend a bit more cash, I'd ask the same two guys for advice and potentially end up with an R500 beater, for similar money as the cheapest R500s.
Oh yes, whatever K you buy, get a dry sump. Also, if you go for a newer car, have a good ride out in the Tillet seats. They gave me back ache and made me feel like I wa sat on the car rather than in it. And in winter they make your arse seriously cold!
Interesting stuff.
I think on throttle bodies we're both saying the same thing.
On the ECU front, I know Emeralds are very good indeed, and supply isn't a problem now they're being manufactured for Emerald by a professional electronics manufacturing company.
I'm interested because my R400 can be a pig in traffic and the warranty is out soon so I'd like to get it sorted out, and it just seems such a shame to remove something tha't essentialy working and replace it. Not to mention the hassle in altering the loom or making up an adaptor harness.
If the knowledge on MBE systems is that scant that you can't get the map "polished" as you put it, it may be the sensible thing and maybe ineviatable.
I think on throttle bodies we're both saying the same thing.
On the ECU front, I know Emeralds are very good indeed, and supply isn't a problem now they're being manufactured for Emerald by a professional electronics manufacturing company.
I'm interested because my R400 can be a pig in traffic and the warranty is out soon so I'd like to get it sorted out, and it just seems such a shame to remove something tha't essentialy working and replace it. Not to mention the hassle in altering the loom or making up an adaptor harness.
If the knowledge on MBE systems is that scant that you can't get the map "polished" as you put it, it may be the sensible thing and maybe ineviatable.
Slightly different Ruby? I've seen more meat on a butcher's pencil!
bertie - you have to ask yourself if "essentially working" is good enough. These are amongst the best fast car tools ever made. And they're "essentially working" in a key area?
Karl and Dave can sort out a connector for you, so you may not have to sort a whole new loom. My loom was "bespoke" for the MBE (with much surplus wire removed). Karl sorted it without the need for drastic surgery.
I'm sure if you can get to Essex around a club meet, ruby will take you for a ride (sorry ruby, but I know you're a sociable chap). Tell him to avoid kerbs though, something which I wasn't too adept at when I reacquainted myself with my old friends.
Whether MBE expertise is scant these days I know not. My suggestion would be for you to post on blatchat asking for someone with MBE AND K series experience. My guess is, you'll get most people saying buy an Emerald. If you get anyone recommending a place, let me know the name and I'll give an opinion (even if that opinion is that I don't know them).
A car that stutters and splurts in traffic is not a decent car. I know. Nor is one that won't pick up cleanly unless you rag the arse off it (quick though it still may be).
Many will tell you that this is not the natural environment for a 7. Fair enough - if you trailer your car everywhere. Traffic is a fact of life, even on the way to a track day.
Life's too short to dick around with something that could be perfect but isn't, simply because 800 quid out of a 30k+ sticker price couldn't be spent on getting a map sorted properly for each and every car (if indeed that's al it would take..and if it wouldn't, ask why).
By the way, I LOVE Caterhams. I'll always own one, no matter what else is in the drive. I am amongst their biggest advocates and have persuaded more people than I care to recall into buying one. But I'm not blind to the faults of the cars or the firm that makes them.
bertie - you have to ask yourself if "essentially working" is good enough. These are amongst the best fast car tools ever made. And they're "essentially working" in a key area?
Karl and Dave can sort out a connector for you, so you may not have to sort a whole new loom. My loom was "bespoke" for the MBE (with much surplus wire removed). Karl sorted it without the need for drastic surgery.
I'm sure if you can get to Essex around a club meet, ruby will take you for a ride (sorry ruby, but I know you're a sociable chap). Tell him to avoid kerbs though, something which I wasn't too adept at when I reacquainted myself with my old friends.
Whether MBE expertise is scant these days I know not. My suggestion would be for you to post on blatchat asking for someone with MBE AND K series experience. My guess is, you'll get most people saying buy an Emerald. If you get anyone recommending a place, let me know the name and I'll give an opinion (even if that opinion is that I don't know them).
A car that stutters and splurts in traffic is not a decent car. I know. Nor is one that won't pick up cleanly unless you rag the arse off it (quick though it still may be).
Many will tell you that this is not the natural environment for a 7. Fair enough - if you trailer your car everywhere. Traffic is a fact of life, even on the way to a track day.
Life's too short to dick around with something that could be perfect but isn't, simply because 800 quid out of a 30k+ sticker price couldn't be spent on getting a map sorted properly for each and every car (if indeed that's al it would take..and if it wouldn't, ask why).
By the way, I LOVE Caterhams. I'll always own one, no matter what else is in the drive. I am amongst their biggest advocates and have persuaded more people than I care to recall into buying one. But I'm not blind to the faults of the cars or the firm that makes them.
Well I havnt bought yet, so Im sitting tight, waiting, looking, wondering if a few more examples will be for sale when the summer ends (wot summer!)...Ive rung a few dealers up and done some homework to find out what dealers pay for what, so I think Im up to speed on values of the later cars anyway, and I think its fair to say theres a few bob (for some) in retailing Caterhams!!!
And good luck to them! I was toying with having a Westfield but no its a Caterham I want. Aside from accident damage anything to look out for parculiar to Caterhams when i go to see one??
Condition's everything. And the two singularly most expensive bits on an SLR/R400/R500 are the engine and gearbox.
You need to be sure that these have been looked after properly, so ask for evidence that they've been serviced regularly - even if it's only by the owner.
Also, check out how the owner treats the car when you go look at it. If the car's cold, does he ease it into life or thrash it from the off.
Check coolant levels and watch temps carefully on the test run (and before/after). A weakness of the K is the headgasket. If the engine's not treated properly, you can get cooling issues, gasket failure and issues with the head. Nothing to be overly concerned about, but something to watch for (went to look at a car once and the owner wasn't especially mindful of how the engine was treated even when I was there - including chucking water in the header when the temps rose very rapidly to over 100degC! Walked from that one, only to hear later that it had massive engine trouble. Quelle surprise!).
Gearbox should be like a rifle bolt. Any haassles with 2nd gear could indicate something iffy. Reverse can occasionally be a hassle.
Look for rusting on the chassis inside the engine bay. Can happen even on newish cars as the powder coating isn't always perfect.
Check that all the carbon bits are present and correct, and that they aren't damaged. Easily done and expensive to replace (unless you go gf). Check all the electricals (no biggie if they aren't working as there's not much on a 7, but pains to fix).
Have a very good read of blatchat. Think there's even an FAQ on there.
Before you buy, try and get someone experienced in 7s to go along with you. Guys in the club are often more than willing to potter along, and experienced hands can often tell an OK car in the first few miles of driving. These cars often have way more odd noises than most other cars, so sorting between what should be noisy and what shouldn't can be an art.
You need to be sure that these have been looked after properly, so ask for evidence that they've been serviced regularly - even if it's only by the owner.
Also, check out how the owner treats the car when you go look at it. If the car's cold, does he ease it into life or thrash it from the off.
Check coolant levels and watch temps carefully on the test run (and before/after). A weakness of the K is the headgasket. If the engine's not treated properly, you can get cooling issues, gasket failure and issues with the head. Nothing to be overly concerned about, but something to watch for (went to look at a car once and the owner wasn't especially mindful of how the engine was treated even when I was there - including chucking water in the header when the temps rose very rapidly to over 100degC! Walked from that one, only to hear later that it had massive engine trouble. Quelle surprise!).
Gearbox should be like a rifle bolt. Any haassles with 2nd gear could indicate something iffy. Reverse can occasionally be a hassle.
Look for rusting on the chassis inside the engine bay. Can happen even on newish cars as the powder coating isn't always perfect.
Check that all the carbon bits are present and correct, and that they aren't damaged. Easily done and expensive to replace (unless you go gf). Check all the electricals (no biggie if they aren't working as there's not much on a 7, but pains to fix).
Have a very good read of blatchat. Think there's even an FAQ on there.
Before you buy, try and get someone experienced in 7s to go along with you. Guys in the club are often more than willing to potter along, and experienced hands can often tell an OK car in the first few miles of driving. These cars often have way more odd noises than most other cars, so sorting between what should be noisy and what shouldn't can be an art.
So what's trade for an R500? I'm guessing £18k for an early one...Paul Stephens has two (at least I think he still has both) - I'm sure you know him through Porsche dealings - he's always willing to do a trade as well, especialy when they've hung around for a while as these two have. One's the ex 2002 motorshow car - been well used as a result, I understand. I knoe the previous owner of the other car - very nice, aerscreened and I can put you in touch with him if you want to know the history. Both are pricey to my mind though.
At this time of year 15K-16K seems like the price they want to give for an early 500!! Me too, lol, that would be most agreeable!
Seems a very compressed market to me, in that most cars values seemed squashed between say 7K-12K, even though there is sometimes 12 years or so difference in age, and wildly differing specs.
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