S3 chassis 2.3 Duratec engine. Build question.
Discussion
Hi all,
I've just started a new job which should see me being able to afford the first stage of a new Caterham build from a starter pack within the next few months.
I know what spec I'd like - S3 chassis, 2.3 Duratec engine, heavy duty BGH 5-speed gearbox, aeroscreen, Tilletts, satin black paint etc etc. I know less than nothing about mechanics but I'm well keen to learn and a mechanic mate in town has said he'd like to help with the build.
Engine-wise I'm not planning on a high state of tune because funds won't allow at the mo and cos I don't fancy an investigation into local foliage, but i'd prefer to put this engine in and then upgrade it as time goes on. I know that I prefer low down torque to revvy power. That's just me.
My question is, because this is a non-standard combo for CC, where would I go to take advice on the preparations for and details of the build? I could ask someone like Mick Attree to build the car and will probably go to him or Ammo at Raceco for tuning, but I'd very much like to do the majority of the build myself, as this will keep costs to a minimum and let me learn about the car. CC's website has very little info on the starter kit in relation to non-standard builds.
Tim
I've just started a new job which should see me being able to afford the first stage of a new Caterham build from a starter pack within the next few months.
I know what spec I'd like - S3 chassis, 2.3 Duratec engine, heavy duty BGH 5-speed gearbox, aeroscreen, Tilletts, satin black paint etc etc. I know less than nothing about mechanics but I'm well keen to learn and a mechanic mate in town has said he'd like to help with the build.
Engine-wise I'm not planning on a high state of tune because funds won't allow at the mo and cos I don't fancy an investigation into local foliage, but i'd prefer to put this engine in and then upgrade it as time goes on. I know that I prefer low down torque to revvy power. That's just me.
My question is, because this is a non-standard combo for CC, where would I go to take advice on the preparations for and details of the build? I could ask someone like Mick Attree to build the car and will probably go to him or Ammo at Raceco for tuning, but I'd very much like to do the majority of the build myself, as this will keep costs to a minimum and let me learn about the car. CC's website has very little info on the starter kit in relation to non-standard builds.
Tim
Tim,
There are quite a few people who have done exactly the build you have.
I would say that it would be easy to buy a starter kit from CC, then get the 2.3 Duratec from Ammo at Raceco.
As you say its not a standard build, but not that far off from something like a CSR or my own R500 Duratec.
If you get really stuck, I am sure Ammo and Mic would help offer advice too!
So just get the starter kit ordered and have fun!!
There are quite a few people who have done exactly the build you have.
I would say that it would be easy to buy a starter kit from CC, then get the 2.3 Duratec from Ammo at Raceco.
As you say its not a standard build, but not that far off from something like a CSR or my own R500 Duratec.
If you get really stuck, I am sure Ammo and Mic would help offer advice too!
So just get the starter kit ordered and have fun!!
You could build one up from a starter kit, or you could order a Duratec-engined car from Caterham, minus the Duratec engine. Or Caterham may be willing to substitute a 2.3l in place of the 2.0l. Either way, you would be spared the difficulty and expense of having to order every other part individually.
I suppose you would need to do the same for the gearbox, but I'm not sure. Good luck!
I suppose you would need to do the same for the gearbox, but I'm not sure. Good luck!
Thanks for the replies chaps.
I think i'd like to go the starter pack route cos I don't mind taking a while over the build, and I could no way afford an R400 (or similar) now.
I guess what you are saying is that it shouldn't be that hard to build this spec. I'd be joining the L7C and would pick members' brains before I place my order. I know lots of people have done it before, and looking at the topics on Blatchat, and BBL Sean's perma-grin with his car
it seems it's a tried and tested good combo.
I understand the basic power output of an unmodified 2.3 Duratec is 145bhp. I'd be fine with that to start with, so the engine install shouldn't cripple me either.
I suppose half of the reason for this topic is just to express my excitement at getting ever so close to Caterham ownership. I've been obsessed for quite a few years, driven a few (some at length) and just think it's automotive heaven. You just can't explain it in words to someone who's not driven one.
I think i'll go down to CC Midlands when I'm in a position to buy the first stage of the pack and talk it over with them too. And, assuming it's not time-wasting, give Ammo and Mic a ring.
Best wishes,
Tim
I think i'd like to go the starter pack route cos I don't mind taking a while over the build, and I could no way afford an R400 (or similar) now.
I guess what you are saying is that it shouldn't be that hard to build this spec. I'd be joining the L7C and would pick members' brains before I place my order. I know lots of people have done it before, and looking at the topics on Blatchat, and BBL Sean's perma-grin with his car
it seems it's a tried and tested good combo.I understand the basic power output of an unmodified 2.3 Duratec is 145bhp. I'd be fine with that to start with, so the engine install shouldn't cripple me either.
I suppose half of the reason for this topic is just to express my excitement at getting ever so close to Caterham ownership. I've been obsessed for quite a few years, driven a few (some at length) and just think it's automotive heaven. You just can't explain it in words to someone who's not driven one.
I think i'll go down to CC Midlands when I'm in a position to buy the first stage of the pack and talk it over with them too. And, assuming it's not time-wasting, give Ammo and Mic a ring.
Best wishes,
Tim
The guys at Raceline also know a thing or two about getting a duratec into a 7, another website for your general reading and research!
http://www.raceline.co.uk/
http://www.raceline.co.uk/
Tim I did exactly what you're proposing in 2004 but bought a new R400 kit from Caterham minus engine, gearbox, exhaust, ECU etc and at the time they gave me a cracking deal, not much more than a starter kit but with all the R400 carbon, kevlar, big brakes, wide track, LSD, Stack dash etc so if you want that spec go for an R as a starting point.
Engine wise, initially the whole lot was supplied by Raceline who do a complete kit of everything you need. After 3 years I upgraded to a 280bhp Ammo engine.
A word of warning though, don't let the fact that a 2.3 145bhp Duratec crated engine is only £2Kish let you think the install is cheap, all the ancillaries will add up to 4 times that figure I would have thought.
If you have questions then drop me an email and I'll try and answer them all.
Engine wise, initially the whole lot was supplied by Raceline who do a complete kit of everything you need. After 3 years I upgraded to a 280bhp Ammo engine.
A word of warning though, don't let the fact that a 2.3 145bhp Duratec crated engine is only £2Kish let you think the install is cheap, all the ancillaries will add up to 4 times that figure I would have thought.
If you have questions then drop me an email and I'll try and answer them all.
timrw81 said:
Hi all,
I've just started a new job which should see me being able to afford the first stage of a new Caterham build from a starter pack within the next few months.
I know what spec I'd like - S3 chassis, 2.3 Duratec engine, heavy duty BGH 5-speed gearbox, aeroscreen, Tilletts, satin black paint etc etc. I know less than nothing about mechanics but I'm well keen to learn and a mechanic mate in town has said he'd like to help with the build.
Engine-wise I'm not planning on a high state of tune because funds won't allow at the mo and cos I don't fancy an investigation into local foliage, but i'd prefer to put this engine in and then upgrade it as time goes on. I know that I prefer low down torque to revvy power. That's just me.
My question is, because this is a non-standard combo for CC, where would I go to take advice on the preparations for and details of the build? I could ask someone like Mick Attree to build the car and will probably go to him or Ammo at Raceco for tuning, but I'd very much like to do the majority of the build myself, as this will keep costs to a minimum and let me learn about the car. CC's website has very little info on the starter kit in relation to non-standard builds.
Tim
I'm intrigued about how you have come to your plan/spec and what you are trying to achieve - forgive me for asking but I'm wondering if you have considered all the options? It strikes me that from what you say about funds, you will take a long time and spend a not inconsiderable amount of money before getting to a caterham you drive.I've just started a new job which should see me being able to afford the first stage of a new Caterham build from a starter pack within the next few months.
I know what spec I'd like - S3 chassis, 2.3 Duratec engine, heavy duty BGH 5-speed gearbox, aeroscreen, Tilletts, satin black paint etc etc. I know less than nothing about mechanics but I'm well keen to learn and a mechanic mate in town has said he'd like to help with the build.
Engine-wise I'm not planning on a high state of tune because funds won't allow at the mo and cos I don't fancy an investigation into local foliage, but i'd prefer to put this engine in and then upgrade it as time goes on. I know that I prefer low down torque to revvy power. That's just me.
My question is, because this is a non-standard combo for CC, where would I go to take advice on the preparations for and details of the build? I could ask someone like Mick Attree to build the car and will probably go to him or Ammo at Raceco for tuning, but I'd very much like to do the majority of the build myself, as this will keep costs to a minimum and let me learn about the car. CC's website has very little info on the starter kit in relation to non-standard builds.
Tim
Have you considered the approach of getting into budget caterham ownership first to get a first-hand understanding of what you like/don't like? Then you'll have knowledge of what you want to do. It also has the benefit of getting you into the 7 ownership and drivign experience much earlier.
Just a thought that might or might not be helpful.
Bert
Cheers Carl.
I've come to this spec by driving different 7s and deciding what I like and what I don't. For example, the two Roadsports I've driven have felt under-powered at 125bhp. They also had leather seats and I felt they weren't too comfortable and I felt a little disconnected from the action. I've sat in Tilletts and have found them much more comfortable and immediately more hardwired into the car.
I've driven an R400 and it was awesome, with just the right amount of power (this option is definitely not off my shortlist). The only worry is that the car will be used for touring as well as blatting and the 6-speed box might become a bit tiresome. I drive with a good degree of mechanical sympathy - thus the idea of an uber-torquey 2.3 engine with a 5-speed box.
I've driven in cars with windscreens and aeroscreens. I prefer the aeroscreen, but may purchase a windscreen and weather gear for winter driving.
If there was a supercharger pack for the Sigma in the new Supersport then this would be very tempting too, but there ain't. Nor has my research uncovered any reputable companies doing or developing one.
The other major factor is that it's often said on here that it's less expensive, long term, to start with the spec you'd eventually go for, than start replacing engines/gearboxes etc. So, yes, it would take me longer to actually complete the car, but when it was done, it would be done for a long time. I don't have unlimited funds so don't want to go throwing money around.
Do you think that this spec would end up costing me more than an R400?
This is very helpful to me, by the way, to discuss all this.
Tim
BertBert said:
I'm intrigued about how you have come to your plan/spec and what you are trying to achieve - forgive me for asking but I'm wondering if you have considered all the options? It strikes me that from what you say about funds, you will take a long time and spend a not inconsiderable amount of money before getting to a caterham you drive.
Bert
Bert, Bert
I've come to this spec by driving different 7s and deciding what I like and what I don't. For example, the two Roadsports I've driven have felt under-powered at 125bhp. They also had leather seats and I felt they weren't too comfortable and I felt a little disconnected from the action. I've sat in Tilletts and have found them much more comfortable and immediately more hardwired into the car.
I've driven an R400 and it was awesome, with just the right amount of power (this option is definitely not off my shortlist). The only worry is that the car will be used for touring as well as blatting and the 6-speed box might become a bit tiresome. I drive with a good degree of mechanical sympathy - thus the idea of an uber-torquey 2.3 engine with a 5-speed box.
I've driven in cars with windscreens and aeroscreens. I prefer the aeroscreen, but may purchase a windscreen and weather gear for winter driving.
If there was a supercharger pack for the Sigma in the new Supersport then this would be very tempting too, but there ain't. Nor has my research uncovered any reputable companies doing or developing one.
The other major factor is that it's often said on here that it's less expensive, long term, to start with the spec you'd eventually go for, than start replacing engines/gearboxes etc. So, yes, it would take me longer to actually complete the car, but when it was done, it would be done for a long time. I don't have unlimited funds so don't want to go throwing money around.
Do you think that this spec would end up costing me more than an R400?
This is very helpful to me, by the way, to discuss all this.
Tim
timrw81 said:
Do you think that this spec would end up costing me more than an R400?
Thanks for satisfying my curiosity!! I don't know what the relative costs will be, but I think you should cost it out and see how it pans out. I would have a suspicion that buying it in stages will be quite costly. It may not matter to you, but you may end up with a slightly left-field spec of car. Not fully caterham. Hard core with aero-screen/tillets, but soft-core, lower power torquey 5-speed.BB
best combination I had for touring was in my CSR260, 6 speed box with 3.38 diff was a great tourer and still went like the wind, currently have a R400D and on the road it is quite revvy It has a 3.9 diff, I was considering a 3.6 diff as a happy medium as i plan to do track work in it too.
Tim
If you want something similar to an R400D spec car then just go and buy one. If you build you're own hybrid it'll cost you more I suspect as the resale won't be as good as a Caterham supplied model.
The reason I built a 280bhp 2.3l Duratec around a new R400 kit in 2004 is that Caterham didn't offer the Duratec at that point so it was the only option, and frankly far more interesting for me to research and build to my own spec, but come resale time if it were an equivalent spec official R4/500 I would have returned a higher % of my initial outlay.
For the guys that are attached to their existing cars (like MadHatter I guess) but want more power it makes sense to upgrade, but IMHO if you have limited funds but want something close to a 'standard' Caterham spec and you want to build it around a new kit then it makes more sense to just buy the complete kit.
All IMHO
cheers
If you want something similar to an R400D spec car then just go and buy one. If you build you're own hybrid it'll cost you more I suspect as the resale won't be as good as a Caterham supplied model.
The reason I built a 280bhp 2.3l Duratec around a new R400 kit in 2004 is that Caterham didn't offer the Duratec at that point so it was the only option, and frankly far more interesting for me to research and build to my own spec, but come resale time if it were an equivalent spec official R4/500 I would have returned a higher % of my initial outlay.
For the guys that are attached to their existing cars (like MadHatter I guess) but want more power it makes sense to upgrade, but IMHO if you have limited funds but want something close to a 'standard' Caterham spec and you want to build it around a new kit then it makes more sense to just buy the complete kit.
All IMHO
cheers
Mike,
I agree it probably makes more sense to go the standard route and go for an R400 build, but not for the reason you put. I wouldn't be building it to sell it; I'd be building it to drive it. That said, I do feel slowly persuaded to go for a standard model because, let's be honest, it's got more than enough power to keep me entertained for years - especially on the road.
Bert,
I've been working towards the day when I can afford a Caterham for ages. It's been my dream to have one of my own. I've never owned a new car in my life. This one will be new.
Can't really say why, but I'm one big step closer today too.
Thanks for the continuing input guys.
Tim
I agree it probably makes more sense to go the standard route and go for an R400 build, but not for the reason you put. I wouldn't be building it to sell it; I'd be building it to drive it. That said, I do feel slowly persuaded to go for a standard model because, let's be honest, it's got more than enough power to keep me entertained for years - especially on the road.
Bert,
I've been working towards the day when I can afford a Caterham for ages. It's been my dream to have one of my own. I've never owned a new car in my life. This one will be new.
Can't really say why, but I'm one big step closer today too.
Thanks for the continuing input guys.
Tim
No two Caterhams are the same, and there's nothing wrong with building what you want from day one.
If you like messing around in your garage/shed, you'll have hours of pleasure.
Some people want to buy a car complete and drive it, or build one and can't wait to get it done.
Personally I enjoy the challenge of building something different, and I enjoy engineering, as much as driving. I also find the research rewarding.
But from personal experience, buying individual components is also a lot more expensive than buying a KDK.
As has been mentioned, if your funds will allow, probably better to buy a KDK, spec the options you want, and ask for discount on the things you don't.
But I think if you speak to Caterham, they'd be happy to supply a kit with whatever engine/gearbox options you want. For example, a superlight with the CSR200 engine and 5 speed box? I don't know for sure, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
But if funds don't allow, you can do what I did, and start with a bare bones tub, then at least you can start building your dream.
Good luck!
If you like messing around in your garage/shed, you'll have hours of pleasure.
Some people want to buy a car complete and drive it, or build one and can't wait to get it done.
Personally I enjoy the challenge of building something different, and I enjoy engineering, as much as driving. I also find the research rewarding.
But from personal experience, buying individual components is also a lot more expensive than buying a KDK.
As has been mentioned, if your funds will allow, probably better to buy a KDK, spec the options you want, and ask for discount on the things you don't.
But I think if you speak to Caterham, they'd be happy to supply a kit with whatever engine/gearbox options you want. For example, a superlight with the CSR200 engine and 5 speed box? I don't know for sure, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
But if funds don't allow, you can do what I did, and start with a bare bones tub, then at least you can start building your dream.
Good luck!
timrw81 said:
Bert,
I've been working towards the day when I can afford a Caterham for ages. It's been my dream to have one of my own. I've never owned a new car in my life. This one will be new.
Permission to speak freely Mr Mannering?I've been working towards the day when I can afford a Caterham for ages. It's been my dream to have one of my own. I've never owned a new car in my life. This one will be new.
Well my advice is don't do it
Its a totally mad thing to do. I can asssure you the whole "new car" thing is completely overrated. Split your objectives as they are compromising each other massively. To me your project is daft. Your spec is unconventional, no-one in their right mind builds a caterham from a starter kit without some really compelling reason. Building a low power but high torque, soft-tourer with tillets and aeroscreen is just plain daft.And to quote a friend of mine who use to be outspoken and famous in the caterham world..."[in a caterham] torque is sphincter-tightening"
But as with all advice, can easily be ignored!
BB
I find tillets really comfortable. After clocking up the the 500 miles for the first oil change in U.K. I then drove my R300 to Mallorca. No problems.
I did have a screen though. I've never seen the appeal of driving a car wrapped up like a toureg, and getting peppered with gravel/insects.
I have a motorcycle for that!
We're all as different as Sevens aren't we.
I did have a screen though. I've never seen the appeal of driving a car wrapped up like a toureg, and getting peppered with gravel/insects.
I have a motorcycle for that!
We're all as different as Sevens aren't we.
BertBert said:
Permission to speak freely Mr Mannering?
Well my advice is don't do it Its a totally mad thing to do. I can asssure you the whole "new car" thing is completely overrated. Split your objectives as they are compromising each other massively. To me your project is daft. Your spec is unconventional, no-one in their right mind builds a caterham from a starter kit without some really compelling reason. Building a low power but high torque, soft-tourer with tillets and aeroscreen is just plain daft.
And to quote a friend of mine who use to be outspoken and famous in the caterham world..."[in a caterham] torque is sphincter-tightening"
But as with all advice, can easily be ignored!
BB
Bert,Well my advice is don't do it
Its a totally mad thing to do. I can asssure you the whole "new car" thing is completely overrated. Split your objectives as they are compromising each other massively. To me your project is daft. Your spec is unconventional, no-one in their right mind builds a caterham from a starter kit without some really compelling reason. Building a low power but high torque, soft-tourer with tillets and aeroscreen is just plain daft.And to quote a friend of mine who use to be outspoken and famous in the caterham world..."[in a caterham] torque is sphincter-tightening"
But as with all advice, can easily be ignored!
BB
It's Mainwaring, Jones, but permission granted. My only slight quibble is that you appear to have latched onto the idea that my dream spec is a 145bhp 2.3. It's not. That would be its starting output, with the scope for a huge amount more tuning of THE SAME engine. My research has found that the view is the 6-speed box is pointless with a big power 2.3. Thus the combo I mention.
"No one in their right mind builds a Caterham from a starter kit without some really compelling reason". Is that straight from the Caterham website?
What's actually on there is that it's advised for non-standard builds and those who wish to spread the build and costs over time - i.e. fools like me As far as I'm aware - and I could be very wrong here - is that with something like an R400 you can't buy it in stages. It's the complete kit or nothing. So, what with my funds being limited, it seemed like a good idea to build my perfect spec from a starter kit over time.
I'll get me down to Caterham Midlands in the next few weeks and have it out with them.
Tim
I have built lots of Sevens, some standard, some not. I don't think you save much by buying parts from different places, if you want a standard type car, and can buy it in one go then a complete kit is probably best.
If you want something different then a starter kit is probably the best way. I have never lost money selling a non-standard car,as long as its a sensible spec, providing it's built properly with care it will not be to hard to sell.
If you want something different then a starter kit is probably the best way. I have never lost money selling a non-standard car,as long as its a sensible spec, providing it's built properly with care it will not be to hard to sell.
Gassing Station | Caterham | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff