R400 - best set-up for track day FUN? Slicks or not?
Discussion
Hi,
Had a few track days in my recently acquired K series R400. See http://vimeo.com/31573514 & http://vimeo.com/29233714 ( fast fwd to 3/4 the way in to see me driving) to get an idea.
I've really enjoyed them, and am planning a few tweaks in the cold month's to prepare the car for maximum fun. I don't care about lap times, just want max grin factor.
My current set up is: standard R400, magnesium wheels, full roll cage, slick tyres, titanium decat exhaust (v loud imo)
I plan to fit a Raceco exhaust to try and quieten her down a bit, plus have bilstein race dampers & springs fitted, corner weighted and set up.
Now (finally) my question. Should I stick with using slick tyres, or would road tyres be more fun? I have noticed a few lower specced 7's on road tyres, who seem to be having a ball - generally sliding around at slower speeds. Balancing the car on the limit, when it feels like it's on tip toes is what I enjoy, and dont really care how fast I'm going. I have tried road tyres on the standard cast wheels, which was a definite step backward, but this could be due to the extra unsprung weight compared with the mag wheels.
Also, having spoken to quite a few specialists I have knocked the idea of a substantial upgrade / trade up on the head. I had considered a R500 Duratec with Quaiffe box, but that is a heavier set-up, and whilst it might be a bit quicker it wont be any more fun, due to it's considerable weight gain. Squeezing more BHP out of the K series doesn't seem sensible either.
I'm told the K series R400, with race suspension is about as good as it gets for "fun" in a caterham on a track day, without extremely high bills and / or reliability problems. I've met a number of people who have gone from K series R spec cars to Duratec equivalents, who in hindsight have said it's not been worth it, if fun on track is your main aim. All about weight. Is this the right conclusion?
Any advise or views would be greatly appreciated.
Had a few track days in my recently acquired K series R400. See http://vimeo.com/31573514 & http://vimeo.com/29233714 ( fast fwd to 3/4 the way in to see me driving) to get an idea.
I've really enjoyed them, and am planning a few tweaks in the cold month's to prepare the car for maximum fun. I don't care about lap times, just want max grin factor.
My current set up is: standard R400, magnesium wheels, full roll cage, slick tyres, titanium decat exhaust (v loud imo)
I plan to fit a Raceco exhaust to try and quieten her down a bit, plus have bilstein race dampers & springs fitted, corner weighted and set up.
Now (finally) my question. Should I stick with using slick tyres, or would road tyres be more fun? I have noticed a few lower specced 7's on road tyres, who seem to be having a ball - generally sliding around at slower speeds. Balancing the car on the limit, when it feels like it's on tip toes is what I enjoy, and dont really care how fast I'm going. I have tried road tyres on the standard cast wheels, which was a definite step backward, but this could be due to the extra unsprung weight compared with the mag wheels.
Also, having spoken to quite a few specialists I have knocked the idea of a substantial upgrade / trade up on the head. I had considered a R500 Duratec with Quaiffe box, but that is a heavier set-up, and whilst it might be a bit quicker it wont be any more fun, due to it's considerable weight gain. Squeezing more BHP out of the K series doesn't seem sensible either.
I'm told the K series R400, with race suspension is about as good as it gets for "fun" in a caterham on a track day, without extremely high bills and / or reliability problems. I've met a number of people who have gone from K series R spec cars to Duratec equivalents, who in hindsight have said it's not been worth it, if fun on track is your main aim. All about weight. Is this the right conclusion?
Any advise or views would be greatly appreciated.
Answered my own question.....
Not so sure. Road tyres with their fatter side walls can give a much softer, tyre squealing, understeering effect. Obviously lots of variables involved, namely set up and suspension. But I remain unsure whether to stick with slicks or swap over to a lower grip alternative. Maybe a harder compound slick would work? Lower grip, bur very progressive is the key.
Not so sure. Road tyres with their fatter side walls can give a much softer, tyre squealing, understeering effect. Obviously lots of variables involved, namely set up and suspension. But I remain unsure whether to stick with slicks or swap over to a lower grip alternative. Maybe a harder compound slick would work? Lower grip, bur very progressive is the key.
Luke, Very good vids and a very very nice car, If the slicks are not giving you what you want, try a set of hardish used CR500s on your mag wheels = fairly progresive breakaway, prob 3/4 + secs slower round brands indy.But the driver will need to input a lot lot more.
Book instruction we all think we can work out the right lines but you can get up to speed and drive much much more smoothly after a few hours with a good instructor
Doing passenger rides will slow you down,
Try flat flooring the car for driver only,
And enjoy one off Rovers finest examples of engineering for an engine, Nothing wrong with a good K
Book instruction we all think we can work out the right lines but you can get up to speed and drive much much more smoothly after a few hours with a good instructor
Doing passenger rides will slow you down,
Try flat flooring the car for driver only,
And enjoy one off Rovers finest examples of engineering for an engine, Nothing wrong with a good K
looking at your vids you are driving well and certainly quick enough but for me I think the problem is you are quicker than other cars n circuit and had no one to battle with you just seem to be driving past people without having to try, Ive raced and done trackdays for years now and personally find them a waste of time in those situations, It was the reason I sold my 300bhp Caterham the car was too quick on slicks for trackdays and I struggled to find cars to play with on track.
Ive only recently returned to doing trackdays and caterhams after a few year break but I did a trackday last month in my r400d first couple of sessions on my cr500s , I thought was terrible, no braking and general lack of grip was not confidence inspiring at all, I then switched across to slicks which was fantastic, here is a video of my car one of the first sessions on slicks, track was a bit damp in places and im still learning the car and the track, Im chasing a pal of mine who has done the track before and he is quicker in the corners for the first few laps but towards the end as i started to learn the lay out we are quite even matched and that is when a trackday is good fun. click through my other videos from years ago and you will see there was a bunch of us all with cars of the same power meeting up doing trackdays all over the uk, as said get a few of you together with the same cars and rather than looking to make your car slower to have fun you will be looking to make it faster to keep up !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmF57rofnVE
Ive only recently returned to doing trackdays and caterhams after a few year break but I did a trackday last month in my r400d first couple of sessions on my cr500s , I thought was terrible, no braking and general lack of grip was not confidence inspiring at all, I then switched across to slicks which was fantastic, here is a video of my car one of the first sessions on slicks, track was a bit damp in places and im still learning the car and the track, Im chasing a pal of mine who has done the track before and he is quicker in the corners for the first few laps but towards the end as i started to learn the lay out we are quite even matched and that is when a trackday is good fun. click through my other videos from years ago and you will see there was a bunch of us all with cars of the same power meeting up doing trackdays all over the uk, as said get a few of you together with the same cars and rather than looking to make your car slower to have fun you will be looking to make it faster to keep up !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmF57rofnVE
Edited by JeffC on Saturday 26th November 09:59
I went from CR500's on mag wheels, to xply slicks on mag wheels, then finally to medium compound Kumhos on Caterham (10 spoke?) wheels. All on my R400K which I used exclusivly on track during the past few years. The slicks gave the best adhesion, but were devoid of feel, and when they did let go the car was a real handful to get back. This may be due to them being Xplys of course (Idid not change the radial ears). I changed the wheels after seeing a mag wheel collapse, fortunatly without major incident, but it was enought to put me off.
The Kumhos were without doubt the best for me, with much better grip than the CR500's, good enough in the wet, with nice, predictable break away. Cheap, and wore better than the CR500's. The Kumhos are different diameters the the Avons, so you will need to set the car up again if you go this route.
The Kumhos were without doubt the best for me, with much better grip than the CR500's, good enough in the wet, with nice, predictable break away. Cheap, and wore better than the CR500's. The Kumhos are different diameters the the Avons, so you will need to set the car up again if you go this route.
I have a similar car that I now race and have lots of Brands Indy laps under my belt. I think your are doing a respectable job there, but as someone pointed out you are being slowed down by traffic and don't have anyone to play with; I timed you at 54s with a passenger. I raced a season on slicks and another on Avon ZZRs. The ZZRs are c2 seconds slower around Brands Indy as you would expect (so you could do that). I think they are a bit less hard work (for the driver) as there is a bit less grip and so a bit less hanging on for grim death. However, I don't find the ZZRs any more playful particularly, so it's just slower and cheaper to run.
I took my car on a trackday early this year and didn't have much fun because of the traffic and the fact that it is deemed unsociable to drive close to others in a racing fashion and/or make racer style overtakes. This is fair enough as a track day should be more about the occasional driver, not the guy who wants to do testing. So, I backed-off and promised to stop upsetting Pork/Fezza/GTR drivers anymore
A R400 is always going to slaughter most other cars and IMO there's little point in muzzling it by putting it on some rock solid, skinny road tyres. Some guys go back to a 1600 / 135bhp Caterham for just these reasons - there are a surprising number who have done this. Or you could go racing....
I took my car on a trackday early this year and didn't have much fun because of the traffic and the fact that it is deemed unsociable to drive close to others in a racing fashion and/or make racer style overtakes. This is fair enough as a track day should be more about the occasional driver, not the guy who wants to do testing. So, I backed-off and promised to stop upsetting Pork/Fezza/GTR drivers anymore
A R400 is always going to slaughter most other cars and IMO there's little point in muzzling it by putting it on some rock solid, skinny road tyres. Some guys go back to a 1600 / 135bhp Caterham for just these reasons - there are a surprising number who have done this. Or you could go racing....
Now that's an idea! I'm not much of a winter track-dayer, but come Spring that could be a runner. I'll need to shakedown the car so March/April could be good and Brands is my closest circuit. We'll run on ZZRs again next year and I'll probably run on the old rubber at shakedown so I might not be much competition. In racing trim / just the driver, on ZZRs we could do 51s at best I think, slicks could do 49s. Tended to be my better co-driver who was most of a second faster, but don't tell him I said that. Knock a couple of seconds off your time for a passenger and you're in good shape.
This PH Caterham track day sounds a very good way to kick off 2012. Can you post on here when thinking about booking in? Pity its a week late as I had a great day at Silverstone yesterday - full GP track, low numbers, sunny all day and dry after ~2 hours. Only 3 or 4 Caterhams though
Honda Rush said:
Jimmy SLR Just asking a Q if you are racing on ZZR tyres which compound are you using, I have tried the ZZR in the A24 but not for racing, and for me and how my car is set up they are light years ahead of the CR500
I know this will sound bad, but I don't know. DPR Racing sourced them for me along with prepping the car and, as they knew more than me about these (newish) tyres, I didn't ask. Call me a driving enthusiast.....Hi Everyone,
With spring firmly here, I've booked up two track days - 14th April at Woodbridge & 28th April at Lydden.
Would be great to see some of you there?
Over the winter I had the race dampners and springs fitted. Springs at 250 lbs all around. All set-up and corner weighted for driver only. Had all the work done by a race team called Taylors Foundry Motorsport. Along with some other odds and sods (clutch, pads etc etc), the bill came in at nearly £4k, so I'm hoping for an improvement when I get on track. I'm going to try CR500's on the mag wheels.
On the road it is a different car, much more focused. Main difference is much lighter steering, with minimal load up when pressing on. Feels far more balanced and kart like. Track beckons........
With spring firmly here, I've booked up two track days - 14th April at Woodbridge & 28th April at Lydden.
Would be great to see some of you there?
Over the winter I had the race dampners and springs fitted. Springs at 250 lbs all around. All set-up and corner weighted for driver only. Had all the work done by a race team called Taylors Foundry Motorsport. Along with some other odds and sods (clutch, pads etc etc), the bill came in at nearly £4k, so I'm hoping for an improvement when I get on track. I'm going to try CR500's on the mag wheels.
On the road it is a different car, much more focused. Main difference is much lighter steering, with minimal load up when pressing on. Feels far more balanced and kart like. Track beckons........
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