Tuned K-Series - issues?
Discussion
My search for a Caterham goes on. As I learn more, even my slightly addled brain has gathered the following:
1) Caterhams vary widely
2) Provenance and history is everything
3) Many have been tracked / raced
4) Many have been crashed and put back together
5) Many have been altered (sometimes signifianctly) over their lives.
I think I have got to a point where I am likely to end up with a K series car for my budget - much as I might prefer a Duratec I'm not convinced that I can see a lot of return for the exra outlay. There seems to be varying states of tune from c 120bhp to over 200 bhp starting from the same place e.g. here. Whilst I would like more power (and I come with a long history of superbikes so being under-powered does worry me slightly) I have some concerns about how far a K can reasonably be pushed before:
a) tractibility becomes a concern
b) maintenance becomces very costly
c) the probabilty of something expensive going bang increases
d) fuel consumption plummets
Assuming that any engine work has been done by a recognised specialist, I guess what I would really find useful is some guidance on what is a sensible output, what extra cost could I expect to be faced with in the future, or whether I'd be better settling on c. 140bhp and being done with it?
1) Caterhams vary widely
2) Provenance and history is everything
3) Many have been tracked / raced
4) Many have been crashed and put back together
5) Many have been altered (sometimes signifianctly) over their lives.
I think I have got to a point where I am likely to end up with a K series car for my budget - much as I might prefer a Duratec I'm not convinced that I can see a lot of return for the exra outlay. There seems to be varying states of tune from c 120bhp to over 200 bhp starting from the same place e.g. here. Whilst I would like more power (and I come with a long history of superbikes so being under-powered does worry me slightly) I have some concerns about how far a K can reasonably be pushed before:
a) tractibility becomes a concern
b) maintenance becomces very costly
c) the probabilty of something expensive going bang increases
d) fuel consumption plummets
Assuming that any engine work has been done by a recognised specialist, I guess what I would really find useful is some guidance on what is a sensible output, what extra cost could I expect to be faced with in the future, or whether I'd be better settling on c. 140bhp and being done with it?
Rocksteadyeddie said:
My search for a Caterham goes on. As I learn more, even my slightly addled brain has gathered the following:
1) Caterhams vary widely
2) Provenance and history is everything
3) Many have been tracked / raced
4) Many have been crashed and put back together
5) Many have been altered (sometimes signifianctly) over their lives.
I think I have got to a point where I am likely to end up with a K series car for my budget - much as I might prefer a Duratec I'm not convinced that I can see a lot of return for the exra outlay. There seems to be varying states of tune from c 120bhp to over 200 bhp starting from the same place e.g. here. Whilst I would like more power (and I come with a long history of superbikes so being under-powered does worry me slightly) I have some concerns about how far a K can reasonably be pushed before:
a) tractibility becomes a concern
b) maintenance becomces very costly
c) the probabilty of something expensive going bang increases
d) fuel consumption plummets
Assuming that any engine work has been done by a recognised specialist, I guess what I would really find useful is some guidance on what is a sensible output, what extra cost could I expect to be faced with in the future, or whether I'd be better settling on c. 140bhp and being done with it?
RSE,1) Caterhams vary widely
2) Provenance and history is everything
3) Many have been tracked / raced
4) Many have been crashed and put back together
5) Many have been altered (sometimes signifianctly) over their lives.
I think I have got to a point where I am likely to end up with a K series car for my budget - much as I might prefer a Duratec I'm not convinced that I can see a lot of return for the exra outlay. There seems to be varying states of tune from c 120bhp to over 200 bhp starting from the same place e.g. here. Whilst I would like more power (and I come with a long history of superbikes so being under-powered does worry me slightly) I have some concerns about how far a K can reasonably be pushed before:
a) tractibility becomes a concern
b) maintenance becomces very costly
c) the probabilty of something expensive going bang increases
d) fuel consumption plummets
Assuming that any engine work has been done by a recognised specialist, I guess what I would really find useful is some guidance on what is a sensible output, what extra cost could I expect to be faced with in the future, or whether I'd be better settling on c. 140bhp and being done with it?
I *believe* that the figure of 200bhp is seen as the threshold for big maintenance on the K series. The R500s are 230bhp as standard and require an engine refresh every few thousand miles at considerable cost. The R300 and VVC engines are 160-170bhp and are considered to be very relaible whilst providing good performance and esp as you've been on superbikes this is wheer I think you should be looking; 140bhp would be a little slow.
My car is 170bhp and having owned it for 8 months now I do not feel it is slow. I also don't expect to have to have the engine rebuilt, just regular servicing as per the schedule.
Rocksteadyeddie said:
So the car I linked to.... a step too far do we think ?
Not if it has been done well, but you need to be confident it has been done well. Have you started going to your local 7-club monthly meets? They are an excellent place to get to know owners and the cars and perhaps find someone who is prepared to give opinions about possible purchases for you.For me, it's a question of balancing peace of mind with the tuning level you'll be happy with, and balancing both of those with you intended usage. If you're going to do lots of track days but not much road mileage then big power is probably more important. For touring use, reliability and ease of fixing is more important than big power as you don't want to be stranded somewhere with an issue that can't be fixed by the local mechanic.
RSE. I don't know that car you linked but think its a great spec car with very good power.
I've got a 1.6 Rover which started as standard Roadsport (120bhp). Previous owner uprated it to the Supersport (146bhp) with new cams. Then it got Piper 285 cams, emerald ECU and 4-1 exhaust and comes out at a reliable 160bhp. It's a cracking little engine and has been reliable.
However I'm pretty much at the ceiling now on that and should I want more (Yes if I had the cash) I would have to go to the 1.8/1.9 route. Car linked to that has already been done. I know I couldn't afford to re engine mine and keep it under the price he is asking.
In terms of fuel mine does mid 30mpg on the road. The fueling is perfect following emerald mapping and is easy to drive. It's got great pick up. On a set on CR500s it will drift when provoked and I don't really feel the need to fit an LSD yet. 160bhp seems to be the view on the threshold of LSD or not.
Everyone is different in what they want from their car. I'm the type of person that quickly gets use to something and then considers upping the fun/power.
I've got a 1.6 Rover which started as standard Roadsport (120bhp). Previous owner uprated it to the Supersport (146bhp) with new cams. Then it got Piper 285 cams, emerald ECU and 4-1 exhaust and comes out at a reliable 160bhp. It's a cracking little engine and has been reliable.
However I'm pretty much at the ceiling now on that and should I want more (Yes if I had the cash) I would have to go to the 1.8/1.9 route. Car linked to that has already been done. I know I couldn't afford to re engine mine and keep it under the price he is asking.
In terms of fuel mine does mid 30mpg on the road. The fueling is perfect following emerald mapping and is easy to drive. It's got great pick up. On a set on CR500s it will drift when provoked and I don't really feel the need to fit an LSD yet. 160bhp seems to be the view on the threshold of LSD or not.
Everyone is different in what they want from their car. I'm the type of person that quickly gets use to something and then considers upping the fun/power.
There are two opposing POVs here. The first one being buy something with around 120bhp, get used to it, upgrade it or sell it and buy something faster until you have what you feel comfortable with.
The second is spend a bit more to start with and get what you want first time as you'll quickly get bored with something which you don't feel has enough power and performance to keep you entertained.
I don't take issue with the first POV, indeed I can see the logic. It's really down to knowing yourself and knowing whether there is any point in buying something which you know you'd be bored with very quickly. On the same basis, a more powerful car keeps you coming back for more, knowing you haven't yet driven it to it's potential. After 3 months and 1100 miles in mine I know I've barely scratched the surface of what it's capable of and that's one of the reasons I like it.
Just my thoughts on the subject, others may well disagree, maybe this will help your decision.
The second is spend a bit more to start with and get what you want first time as you'll quickly get bored with something which you don't feel has enough power and performance to keep you entertained.
I don't take issue with the first POV, indeed I can see the logic. It's really down to knowing yourself and knowing whether there is any point in buying something which you know you'd be bored with very quickly. On the same basis, a more powerful car keeps you coming back for more, knowing you haven't yet driven it to it's potential. After 3 months and 1100 miles in mine I know I've barely scratched the surface of what it's capable of and that's one of the reasons I like it.
Just my thoughts on the subject, others may well disagree, maybe this will help your decision.
Rocksteadyeddie said:
settling on c. 140bhp and being done with it?
Mate, matey, mucker, buddy, old bean."Katie" has, according to the print-out provided by the PO, 139.5bhp (Super Sport 1.8 K). In about half a tonne of body (driver not included).
I've had her about 18 months now and I've gone from being scared s
tless (in a good way) in the first year or so to thinking "Hmmmm, needs more cow-bell."Your mind will be blown at first, but then you get used to it and want more. This need will probably be more pronounced with your "Superbikes are actually a bit ghey" history.
I'm not sure what I'm trying to contribute to this thread other than "buy the fastest you can get, then be prepared to make it faster".
Cock Womble 7 said:
Rocksteadyeddie said:
settling on c. 140bhp and being done with it?
Mate, matey, mucker, buddy, old bean."Katie" has, according to the print-out provided by the PO, 139.5bhp (Super Sport 1.8 K). In about half a tonne of body (driver not included).
I've had her about 18 months now and I've gone from being scared s
tless (in a good way) in the first year or so to thinking "Hmmmm, needs more cow-bell."Your mind will be blown at first, but then you get used to it and want more. This need will probably be more pronounced with your "Superbikes are actually a bit ghey" history.
I'm not sure what I'm trying to contribute to this thread other than "buy the fastest you can get, then be prepared to make it faster".
Wise words as always, my moutasheoed ghey trucker chum
Rocksteadyeddie said:
So the car I linked to.... a step too far do we think ?
Nope. That's a lot of car for the money.
I started off in a Roadsport K Series 1.6 SuperSport (135bhp) and whilst it was fun, I did always wish it would go quicker. So I bit the bullet a couple of weeks ago and traded in for an R300K.
The R300 is in a different league to the Roadsport.
Edited by kenno78 on Tuesday 20th September 13:37
I know the guy who owns that car and he's been fastidious in keeping it serviced/maintained 
It is a quick and reliable car , It has been wrapped, which is not to everyones liking, but can be put back to the original colour fairly easily .
I think as long as you service/change oil regularly "k" engined cars are on the whole reliable just depends how you treat them !!
HTH
Mark
It is a quick and reliable car , It has been wrapped, which is not to everyones liking, but can be put back to the original colour fairly easily .
I think as long as you service/change oil regularly "k" engined cars are on the whole reliable just depends how you treat them !!
HTH
Mark
markiebabes said:
I know the guy who owns that car and he's been fastidious in keeping it serviced/maintained
It is a quick and reliable car , It has been wrapped, which is not to everyones liking, but can be put back to the original colour fairly easily .
I think as long as you service/change oil regularly "k" engined cars are on the whole reliable just depends how you treat them !!
HTH
Mark
Thanks for that Mark. When you say regularly how regular do you mean? It is a quick and reliable car , It has been wrapped, which is not to everyones liking, but can be put back to the original colour fairly easily .
I think as long as you service/change oil regularly "k" engined cars are on the whole reliable just depends how you treat them !!
HTH
Mark
The car you linked to is well known with a good reputation. In terms of the expense criteria, if it does have an engine moment then the parts in it are not the cheapest and it's not a standard k you can easily get again.
So an engine rebuild to get back what you started with will be reasonably pricey but not extortionate. So I'd agree it could well fit the bill!
On servicing k's. I don't think they generally have problems because they are not serviced enough. Certainly HGF's nowt to do with servicing. If they are well built and warmed up sensibly before blasting and never allowed to overheat (through the expansion tank cap going for example), then they should last ok.
Having said that it would be foolish to ignore the fact that k's do blow their HGs quite a lot!
Bert
So an engine rebuild to get back what you started with will be reasonably pricey but not extortionate. So I'd agree it could well fit the bill!
On servicing k's. I don't think they generally have problems because they are not serviced enough. Certainly HGF's nowt to do with servicing. If they are well built and warmed up sensibly before blasting and never allowed to overheat (through the expansion tank cap going for example), then they should last ok.
Having said that it would be foolish to ignore the fact that k's do blow their HGs quite a lot!
Bert
Tanks Bert. Another car I was looking at has had a "precautionary" HG replacement. Your post explains why. What might the approximate cost of a precautionary HG replacement be ? Presumably than a blown HG replacement is a bigger number?
Apologies for the novice "I know nowt about engines" questions.
Apologies for the novice "I know nowt about engines" questions.
grenpayne said:
The R500s are 230bhp as standard and require an engine refresh every few thousand miles at considerable cost.
If I had a pound for ever time I see the R500 miss quoted I would be a wealthy man If you tracking the car and therefore driving hard all the time then yes maybe but I and other have had over 16,000 miles between rebuilds.
Thanks Petrolhead for stating that, I will second it as well. If not tracked and driven at the limit all the time with three shift lights flashing away at you on every straight, then the engine does not need rebuilding every 3,000 miles. If a road car or even if you are an amateur tracker one or two times a year then regular oil & filter change (500 to 1,000 miles) and regular check of fluid levels and all round nut and bolt check should do, imo. Follow this up with a full service once year by a recommended company then reliability is no problem. Cam belt service history is important to know.
I have only driven a 230hp k-Series, which I have owned for two years and had never driven such a powerful car before. As a road car covering approx 4,000 miles I am still discovering the upper power band. So if you can afford to run such a car it will provide you with more excitement for longer without getting bored. After two years of mountain blats and touring I am only now ready to explore the track.
Plus have some mechanical sympathy, keep below 4,000 rpm before coolant and oil at least reach 60 degrees centigrade before driving it as if you stole it, then the gasket problem is very unlikely / will not occur and if the car history is known and Engine mods applied then this myth can be almost eliminated.
I have only driven a 230hp k-Series, which I have owned for two years and had never driven such a powerful car before. As a road car covering approx 4,000 miles I am still discovering the upper power band. So if you can afford to run such a car it will provide you with more excitement for longer without getting bored. After two years of mountain blats and touring I am only now ready to explore the track.
Plus have some mechanical sympathy, keep below 4,000 rpm before coolant and oil at least reach 60 degrees centigrade before driving it as if you stole it, then the gasket problem is very unlikely / will not occur and if the car history is known and Engine mods applied then this myth can be almost eliminated.
Edited by Ult-Jim on Tuesday 20th September 21:59
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