K series / wet sump / R888 tyres / track days - oil pressure

K series / wet sump / R888 tyres / track days - oil pressure

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Discussion

Matt UK

Original Poster:

17,955 posts

207 months

Friday 12th August 2011
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Is this a receipe for disaster?

Having done a track day and reviewed some in-car video, the oil pressure needle is moving around all of the place during what I would consider some fairly mild corners.

Should one consider this normal or should I be alarmed and investigate further?

Matt UK

Original Poster:

17,955 posts

207 months

Sunday 14th August 2011
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tumbleweed

downsman

1,099 posts

163 months

Sunday 14th August 2011
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Ok, I'm no expert, but.....

The oil pressure gauge may well lag behind the actual pressure, so it's possible the fluctuations are worse than you think.

Obviously oil starvation will ruin your engine in the end, so best not to just ignore it.

Do you have the correct oil level? My hand book suggests checking the level just after running, so the level is higher than if it is checked after standing for some time.

I have had problems like this with cars in the past, so with my new Caterham I've fitted a 35psi oil warning light switch as well as the gauge.
If you fit a light at least it grabs you attention and you're more likely to be aware that the pressure drop is happening.

I know slicks and a wet sump are no good, but I don't know about R888s. Hopefully someone who knows more about K series Caterhams will come along.

Good luck

mickrick

3,705 posts

180 months

Monday 15th August 2011
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downsman said:
Ok, I'm no expert, but.....

The oil pressure gauge may well lag behind the actual pressure, so it's possible the fluctuations are worse than you think.

Obviously oil starvation will ruin your engine in the end, so best not to just ignore it.

Do you have the correct oil level? My hand book suggests checking the level just after running, so the level is higher than if it is checked after standing for some time.

I have had problems like this with cars in the past, so with my new Caterham I've fitted a 35psi oil warning light switch as well as the gauge.
If you fit a light at least it grabs you attention and you're more likely to be aware that the pressure drop is happening.

I know slicks and a wet sump are no good, but I don't know about R888s. Hopefully someone who knows more about K series Caterhams will come along.

Good luck
Downsman, I think you meant the other way around?
The oil level will be lower if it's jut been run. It's higher after standing, because the oil has time to drain back down to the sump.

IMO you need a drysump if you're going to track the car.

When I bought my R300 back in 2005, I discussed this with Caterham, as I had a ordered a LHD car and there was some issues with mounting the scavange pump.
They told me I didn't need a dry sump, unless I was going to track the car. Which I didn't.

CharlesElliott

2,050 posts

289 months

Monday 15th August 2011
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You might like to read my post on Blatchat here.

Incorrigible

13,668 posts

268 months

Monday 15th August 2011
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mickrick said:
Downsman, I think you meant the other way around?
The oil level will be lower if it's jut been run. It's higher after standing, because the oil has time to drain back down to the sump.
With the K series (wet sump) the oil's checked with the engine running, so Downsman has it right and you've got the reason right hehe

If the engine isn't hot enough the oil takes longer to return to the sump giving a falsly low reading

Charles' post on Blatchat is excellent yes

Vlad the Imp

196 posts

190 months

Monday 15th August 2011
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I have a 160hp 1.8k with Apollo that has done about 16k miles of which a significant proportion are track miles. I have a mechanical pressure guage and agree with everything Charles said in his Blatchat post as pressure does vary wildly on a lap. The only difference is that for me it's left handers that are where the pressure will drop as low as 20psi.eek

It's for this reason that despite being a trackday regular I've never gone for anything stickier than CR500s as I'm convinced more grip equals less oil pressure! If I ever get round to putting an R400 engine in it a dry sump is an absolute must.

Matt UK

Original Poster:

17,955 posts

207 months

Monday 15th August 2011
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Here's the video. If you ignore the actual driving, you can see the needle wandering around through both left and right corners at speeds I felt were far from full-attack:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psdWtUP54Gc

Risky

167 posts

232 months

Monday 15th August 2011
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I think there's some confusion here. Mickrick has it right. The oil level will be lower if checked when the engine is running or immediately after running, as much will still be circulating the engine. It will be higher if the engine has been left to stand for a while after running and oil has run back into the sump.
Whilst instruction from Caterham says check whilst running this can be difficult and give a false reading because of splash. It is therefore acceptable to check IMMEDIATELY (within seconds) after switching off the engine i.e. before oil has had chance to run back into the sump.
All this of course relates to a K series motor.

downsman

1,099 posts

163 months

Monday 15th August 2011
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Thanks for pointing that out.

It was late at night and what I meant to say is that if you check the level just after running and top it up, the resulting level in the sump will be higher than if it was topped up after all the oil has dropped into the sump.

Not the clearest way of putting it biggrin

DVandrews

1,324 posts

290 months

Monday 15th August 2011
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The reason they suggest checking with the engine running is that this works for engines with an Apollo fitted and regular wet sump ones. If your engine has an Apollo, it will drain back into the sump when left latent and it will be impossible to determine the oil level correctly.

I always check the level by allowing the engine to settle for 30 seconds after running, this will allow 99% of the loose oil to drain without flooding the sump with oil from the Apollo(if fitted).

Dave



Matt UK

Original Poster:

17,955 posts

207 months

Tuesday 16th August 2011
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I'm confident that oil level is OK. It's the pressure needle darting around during a tame-ish lap that worries me.

Is running R888s without a dry sump a bit of a no-no then?

Risky

167 posts

232 months

Tuesday 16th August 2011
quotequote all
I think there's some confusion here. Mickrick has it right. The oil level will be lower if checked when the engine is running or immediately after running, as much will still be circulating the engine. It will be higher if the engine has been left to stand for a while after running and oil has run back into the sump.
Whilst instruction from Caterham says check whilst running this can be difficult and give a false reading because of splash. It is therefore acceptable to check IMMEDIATELY (within seconds) after switching off the engine i.e. before oil has had chance to run back into the sump.
All this of course relates to a K series motor.

mickrick

3,705 posts

180 months

Tuesday 16th August 2011
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Matt UK said:
I'm confident that oil level is OK. It's the pressure needle darting around during a tame-ish lap that worries me.

Is running R888s without a dry sump a bit of a no-no then?
Yes Mate, I'd be looking into fitting a dry sump if I where you. wink

downsman

1,099 posts

163 months

Tuesday 16th August 2011
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It would be cheaper to swap to less grippy tyres like A021r Yokohamas and they're safer in the wet smile

Faster isn't always necessarily more fun.

Matt230

138 posts

214 months

Thursday 18th August 2011
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I used to have a K series with Apollo and wet sump. With 888's GG compound I used to get widely fluctuating oil pressure on track. However after I performed the sump gasket mod to de foam, on track days after even with softer SG 888's i had no oil pressure fluctuation. Both these were with mechanical oil pressure gauge.

I have no idea how or why this happened...

Matt

Matt UK

Original Poster:

17,955 posts

207 months

Thursday 18th August 2011
quotequote all
Matt230 said:
I used to have a K series with Apollo and wet sump. With 888's GG compound I used to get widely fluctuating oil pressure on track. However after I performed the sump gasket mod to de foam, on track days after even with softer SG 888's i had no oil pressure fluctuation. Both these were with mechanical oil pressure gauge.

I have no idea how or why this happened...

Matt
Interesting. I have the Apollo, mechanical oil pressure gauge and currently run de-foam.

My thinking was that I should drop the sump and foam-up.

Confused confused

phucks1976

240 posts

224 months

Friday 19th August 2011
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I had the same situation and fitted a sump baffle for a k series forget who I got it from. 190 vhpd so wuite pwerful running on semi slicks no problems after fitting it.


Matt UK

Original Poster:

17,955 posts

207 months

Saturday 20th August 2011
quotequote all
phucks1976 said:
I had the same situation and fitted a sump baffle for a k series forget who I got it from. 190 vhpd so wuite pwerful running on semi slicks no problems after fitting it.
Do you mean onw of the foam sump baffles or some sort of metal 'fins'?

phucks1976

240 posts

224 months

Monday 22nd August 2011
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metal fins.