Anyone built without using a caterham supplied drivetrain?
Discussion
I had a ring around...
A full road sport chassis and bodypack with wide track/lowered floor/suspension/uprights/ap brakes etc comes to about £8.5k. This includes bits like engine loom/gauges/switches and other bits that I wouldn't use so could sell as new
On top of that I'd have to buy/source/build a gearbox/engine/seats/diff/propshaft etc. In my mind this way you could build a nice 200bhp engined car for 11.5k OTR.
Has anyone done similar? I can't see any pitfalls really?
A full road sport chassis and bodypack with wide track/lowered floor/suspension/uprights/ap brakes etc comes to about £8.5k. This includes bits like engine loom/gauges/switches and other bits that I wouldn't use so could sell as new
On top of that I'd have to buy/source/build a gearbox/engine/seats/diff/propshaft etc. In my mind this way you could build a nice 200bhp engined car for 11.5k OTR.
Has anyone done similar? I can't see any pitfalls really?
I'm sure a few people have built cars from a chassis kit. My concern is that you under estimate what you will be paying for your engine etc.
What engine are you planning to use. You can easily spend £1,000 on an exhaust alone. If you're looking for 200 bhp you'll need throttle bodies, cams, ECU etc. Don't forget starter, alternator. What about wheels and tyres?
I'm sure you can make savings, but not as much as you might think and you end up with a car which may not be as easy to sell in view of the second hand bits.
Just my 2 penneth
What engine are you planning to use. You can easily spend £1,000 on an exhaust alone. If you're looking for 200 bhp you'll need throttle bodies, cams, ECU etc. Don't forget starter, alternator. What about wheels and tyres?
I'm sure you can make savings, but not as much as you might think and you end up with a car which may not be as easy to sell in view of the second hand bits.
Just my 2 penneth
A nissan SR20DE, it'll cost about £1500 plus a donor engine to get it to 220bhp, a light reliable engine. Exhaust will be about £700 for a full bespoke system, A new bmw diff is £1050 direct with about another £600 to have it converted to LSD. Or I could get a used one from a breakers for about £200!
Or a honda s2000 engine and box, 240bhp standard. Only ecu and mapping costs to pay so about £2500ish all in.
Or a honda s2000 engine and box, 240bhp standard. Only ecu and mapping costs to pay so about £2500ish all in.
jason61c said:
A nissan SR20DE, it'll cost about £1500 plus a donor engine to get it to 220bhp, a light reliable engine. Exhaust will be about £700 for a full bespoke system, A new bmw diff is £1050 direct with about another £600 to have it converted to LSD. Or I could get a used one from a breakers for about £200!
Or a honda s2000 engine and box, 240bhp standard. Only ecu and mapping costs to pay so about £2500ish all in.
One of the funniest posts I've ever read on here! Or a honda s2000 engine and box, 240bhp standard. Only ecu and mapping costs to pay so about £2500ish all in.
Don't underestimate the extra cost of "non standard" engine installation.
Things like induction, fueling, oil, cooling (water and oil), electrics....
Most should be do-able, but unless you are "off the shelf" non-standard from Racetec etc, it may take some tracking down.
All good fun, but not always cheap
Things like induction, fueling, oil, cooling (water and oil), electrics....
Most should be do-able, but unless you are "off the shelf" non-standard from Racetec etc, it may take some tracking down.
All good fun, but not always cheap
It'd be nice to have something from the norm too. I've just built another kit car with a 3.2 m3 engine running on all the standard ECU's etc so its nothing that i'm that worried about. Same with the exhaust/radiator, if you go direct it's always worked out a lot cheaper in my experience.
Reliable standard power is always a plus point too. It could be built on a age related plate quite easlily or with a new plate without much extra hassle/expense.
Reliable standard power is always a plus point too. It could be built on a age related plate quite easlily or with a new plate without much extra hassle/expense.
Noger said:
Don't underestimate the extra cost of "non standard" engine installation.
Things like induction, fueling, oil, cooling (water and oil), electrics....
Most should be do-able, but unless you are "off the shelf" non-standard from Racetec etc, it may take some tracking down.
All good fun, but not always cheap
Indeed, add in engine mounts, driveshafts, gearbox, propshaft and it all adds up quite quickly. Which geabox are you going to use? If it's a standard one you'll need bellhousing/clutch sorting out, if it's not a 'standard' one you need gearbox mounting and propshaft modifications.Things like induction, fueling, oil, cooling (water and oil), electrics....
Most should be do-able, but unless you are "off the shelf" non-standard from Racetec etc, it may take some tracking down.
All good fun, but not always cheap
jason61c said:
if you go direct it's always worked out a lot cheaper in my experience.
Many in the Caterham world won't sell direct if they are parts built *for* Caterham.jason61c said:
It could be built on a age related plate quite easlily or with a new plate without much extra hassle/expense.
What age, the body chassis unit or the engine? You're drifting into the rather murky area of legality wrt to DVLA here. Plus the IVA (or whatever it is now) is much easier to complete if the car's standard.The difficulty with starting with a Caterham is simply the dimensions. The engine bay isn't that big, so you have less room to be cheap (if that makes sense).
It is perfectly do-able, of course. But you will either have to compromise aesthetically or financially. Getting it all neat and tidy and fitting under the bonnet is hard work.
It is perfectly do-able, of course. But you will either have to compromise aesthetically or financially. Getting it all neat and tidy and fitting under the bonnet is hard work.
With a little discipline and a lot of time you maybe could put together a car using tried and tested parts for less than the Caterham price. If you like the challenge then give it a go, but don't do it to save money. The risks are that you'll end up paying £30K for a a bespoke car on a Q plate that's worth £15K.
Caterham has moved on from being a collection of other manufactures parts. To source the parts it may be more expensive than you think.
Just one example of where this can go wrong: BMW diff? Where are you going to get the (Caterham) bespoke cradle and drive shafts? The engine mounts/dry sump/oil system/bell-housing/cooling/steering will all be challenges and will be £100's, if not £1000's to sort out. Most of which will end up in Caterham's coffers.
Caterham has moved on from being a collection of other manufactures parts. To source the parts it may be more expensive than you think.
Just one example of where this can go wrong: BMW diff? Where are you going to get the (Caterham) bespoke cradle and drive shafts? The engine mounts/dry sump/oil system/bell-housing/cooling/steering will all be challenges and will be £100's, if not £1000's to sort out. Most of which will end up in Caterham's coffers.
Noger said:
The difficulty with starting with a Caterham is simply the dimensions. The engine bay isn't that big, so you have less room to be cheap (if that makes sense).
It is perfectly do-able, of course. But you will either have to compromise aesthetically or financially. Getting it all neat and tidy and fitting under the bonnet is hard work.
Yep but it'd be fun It is perfectly do-able, of course. But you will either have to compromise aesthetically or financially. Getting it all neat and tidy and fitting under the bonnet is hard work.
The car I've just built as the same space under the bonnet as a caterham, its only the way its triangulated at the front that'd stop 6pot bmw lump going in from the top.
The chassis now come to fit a BMW diff, however with an axle pack at £1700 for a new diff/drive shafts etc its not far off what having bits built will cost. Cooling isn't an issue and neither is IVA.
Having spent a bit of time doing the sums it seems a s2000 engined car with a stack dash will cost about £14k otr including cost of custom parts.
I'd use radtech for a radiator, tube engineers for an exhaust, DTA ecu. 13" cxr's. A bespoke prop is about £140.
I'm just trying to work out how to get the best car for my money. A honda s2000 engined car wouldn't be a hard thing to resell... would it? Who wouldn't want 9000rpm with 100,000 mile reliablity?
Jason
If you are thinking of building to resell then beware that caterham buyers are very cautious and will not generally buy bitsa cars, as they want oe factory installs ie K -series, duratec etc.
IIRC a 7 has been built with a S2000 engine before, and it was very nicely done, the engine had to be dry sumped though and i think the weight of the engine is quite high compared to the factory offerings, which can compromise the handling.
Good luck, enjoy building it if you like doing something different or fancy the challenge, but caterham fitted the engines they do as they fit the dynamic of the car.
If you are thinking of building to resell then beware that caterham buyers are very cautious and will not generally buy bitsa cars, as they want oe factory installs ie K -series, duratec etc.
IIRC a 7 has been built with a S2000 engine before, and it was very nicely done, the engine had to be dry sumped though and i think the weight of the engine is quite high compared to the factory offerings, which can compromise the handling.
Good luck, enjoy building it if you like doing something different or fancy the challenge, but caterham fitted the engines they do as they fit the dynamic of the car.
I don't know much about the Honda engines, but when I was looking into fitting something different, just because, I was told the Honda units are quite tall, so you could run into ground clearance issues.
As for the Diff, doesn't the new BMW diff cradle bolt into the old Sierra mounting bushes?
If so, you could stick with the Sierra diff, and get a brand new ATB diff and casing from Quaiffe for less than a grand.
In fact IIRC I paid just over 800 for mine.
As for the Diff, doesn't the new BMW diff cradle bolt into the old Sierra mounting bushes?
If so, you could stick with the Sierra diff, and get a brand new ATB diff and casing from Quaiffe for less than a grand.
In fact IIRC I paid just over 800 for mine.
jason61c said:
Yep but it'd be fun
The car I've just built as the same space under the bonnet as a caterham, its only the way its triangulated at the front that'd stop 6pot bmw lump going in from the top.
The chassis now come to fit a BMW diff, however with an axle pack at £1700 for a new diff/drive shafts etc its not far off what having bits built will cost. Cooling isn't an issue and neither is IVA.
Having spent a bit of time doing the sums it seems a s2000 engined car with a stack dash will cost about £14k otr including cost of custom parts.
I'd use radtech for a radiator, tube engineers for an exhaust, DTA ecu. 13" cxr's. A bespoke prop is about £140.
I'm just trying to work out how to get the best car for my money. A honda s2000 engined car wouldn't be a hard thing to resell... would it? Who wouldn't want 9000rpm with 100,000 mile reliablity?
Completely agree The car I've just built as the same space under the bonnet as a caterham, its only the way its triangulated at the front that'd stop 6pot bmw lump going in from the top.
The chassis now come to fit a BMW diff, however with an axle pack at £1700 for a new diff/drive shafts etc its not far off what having bits built will cost. Cooling isn't an issue and neither is IVA.
Having spent a bit of time doing the sums it seems a s2000 engined car with a stack dash will cost about £14k otr including cost of custom parts.
I'd use radtech for a radiator, tube engineers for an exhaust, DTA ecu. 13" cxr's. A bespoke prop is about £140.
I'm just trying to work out how to get the best car for my money. A honda s2000 engined car wouldn't be a hard thing to resell... would it? Who wouldn't want 9000rpm with 100,000 mile reliablity?
Fun, and very rewarding. Just finishing a very long build of a GSXR1000 powered Caterham. Great to own something unique.Yes, you can get some bits cheaper. Titon do "Tillet a likes" etc, compomotive do good deals, there are cheaper rads and the like. But the engine install hurts. It is hard enough fitting a bike engine in, but a tall S2000....again, not impossible.
However...you may not get your money back. Caterham buyers tend to like "original"...too much messing about (however good) and it hits values. Just look at how much of a bargain a Caterham Fireblade or Blackbird is...
I looked at doing just this, I wanted 160-170BHP however costing the parts isn't easy, eventually I worked out that I could get a Zetec engined car for about £15K before the IVA test. this would include TB's, Emerald Ecu, and BGH SCCR 5 speed box. Of course you'd have to build it and spend your time doing so. WIth all the appropriate Hassle.
Try to spend ANy less than this and you're getting a car which would be very hard to sell on, the Zetec is certainly the cheapest sensible engine option IMO.
Eventually we decided to buy an almost new car and ended up with a 10month old 2000mile Sigma for £15K, advantage of this is you can drive it immediately and have no problems with IVA - kept in good Nick it'll be easier to sell on than my proposed Zetec engined car too, or alternatively I can upgrade to a DUratec fairly easily, [exhaust is on the same side]
OOI the sigma is excellent and we're very pleased with our purchase, and only 125 BHP means nothing really the cars plenty quick enough for us.
Hope this helps you decide.
Mal
Try to spend ANy less than this and you're getting a car which would be very hard to sell on, the Zetec is certainly the cheapest sensible engine option IMO.
Eventually we decided to buy an almost new car and ended up with a 10month old 2000mile Sigma for £15K, advantage of this is you can drive it immediately and have no problems with IVA - kept in good Nick it'll be easier to sell on than my proposed Zetec engined car too, or alternatively I can upgrade to a DUratec fairly easily, [exhaust is on the same side]
OOI the sigma is excellent and we're very pleased with our purchase, and only 125 BHP means nothing really the cars plenty quick enough for us.
Hope this helps you decide.
Mal
Edited by S47 on Thursday 28th July 16:13
DaveK-S1 said:
Jason
If you are thinking of building to resell then beware that caterham buyers are very cautious and will not generally buy bitsa cars, as they want oe factory installs ie K -series, duratec etc.
IIRC a 7 has been built with a S2000 engine before, and it was very nicely done, the engine had to be dry sumped though and i think the weight of the engine is quite high compared to the factory offerings, which can compromise the handling.
Good luck, enjoy building it if you like doing something different or fancy the challenge, but caterham fitted the engines they do as they fit the dynamic of the car.
I understand what you're saying however i'd put 50p on the cost of the powerplant being near the top of thier list too. There's not too much in it weight wise.If you are thinking of building to resell then beware that caterham buyers are very cautious and will not generally buy bitsa cars, as they want oe factory installs ie K -series, duratec etc.
IIRC a 7 has been built with a S2000 engine before, and it was very nicely done, the engine had to be dry sumped though and i think the weight of the engine is quite high compared to the factory offerings, which can compromise the handling.
Good luck, enjoy building it if you like doing something different or fancy the challenge, but caterham fitted the engines they do as they fit the dynamic of the car.
I guess further investigations would be needed....
In my head I can't work out why people would pay 12k for a used 10 year old car but they wouldn't pay 15k for a year old car built with a 'better' but not common power plant.
Cheers for the info/comments so far.
allen l said:
I won't argue with you it won't fit, but having seen so many of them, apart from the weight issue I'm really struggling with my imagination how one could fit an S54B32 in a Caterham.
I could send you a pic of my engine bay which is about the same size, it fits great however it just requires more thought. The engine sits up tight at the back of the engine bay, still a good 10" behind the front axle line.Gassing Station | Caterham | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff