1.4 Classic - Advice
Discussion
Hi Guys
Yet another one of my many thoughts! I have been looking at Sevens lately (still a bit new to it all, so excuse me!).
The model that seems to be the cheapest to insure and easiest to find would be a 1.4 Classic (£450 for a year at 21, result!). Before this turns into a K Series slanging match, what are these engines actually reliability-wise? It would be a car for high days and holidays (2k a year max, I'd keep the MINI for everyday work), so it would be driven properly once warm and familiarised. Fuel economy isn't really an issue, 30mpg would be nice on a run though! Speed isn't the end of the world, 6.5 secs is still plenty fast enough at my age, I am not sure the premium (both purchase price and insurance) required for a 1.6 or 1.8 is justified given the speed difference. Or maybe they are, I am only looking at figures, so any experience would be very grateful!
I would also look at doing a couple of track-days per year, just to see what it would be capable of once being pushed. I have seen things about the 5 speed box which makes me wonder if the gearbox and engine combo is going to be worth it, are they justified? I have driven a Superlight round a track and it was really brilliant, so the handling is more than up to it!
Also, are there any options worth looking out for?
I look forward to hearing your thoughts
(And sorry for the barrage of questions!)
Yet another one of my many thoughts! I have been looking at Sevens lately (still a bit new to it all, so excuse me!).
The model that seems to be the cheapest to insure and easiest to find would be a 1.4 Classic (£450 for a year at 21, result!). Before this turns into a K Series slanging match, what are these engines actually reliability-wise? It would be a car for high days and holidays (2k a year max, I'd keep the MINI for everyday work), so it would be driven properly once warm and familiarised. Fuel economy isn't really an issue, 30mpg would be nice on a run though! Speed isn't the end of the world, 6.5 secs is still plenty fast enough at my age, I am not sure the premium (both purchase price and insurance) required for a 1.6 or 1.8 is justified given the speed difference. Or maybe they are, I am only looking at figures, so any experience would be very grateful!
I would also look at doing a couple of track-days per year, just to see what it would be capable of once being pushed. I have seen things about the 5 speed box which makes me wonder if the gearbox and engine combo is going to be worth it, are they justified? I have driven a Superlight round a track and it was really brilliant, so the handling is more than up to it!
Also, are there any options worth looking out for?
I look forward to hearing your thoughts
(And sorry for the barrage of questions!)Howdy! I have also just dipped my toe into Seven ownership after several aborted attempts, so perhaps I can give my perspective to some of your questions.
Personally, I think a 1400 is a really good introduction into Seven ownership. But, you won't be disappointed, whatever you get!
First off, I'm surprised your insurance is quite that high, even for 21. I don't know your history, but I'd have thought a little more looking might get some more off that. Hopefully so anyway.
Regards mpg, I've been logging mine (also a 1400 K series) and am returning around 40mpg for an un-modded engine driven normally and with periods of pushing on. Not too shabby. Super/98 doesn't seem to make a difference to the figures, so just costs more, but for 2k miles a year the snakeoil properties they promise in engine-love might be worthwhile. Motorway driving is thirstier at 80+ than 70. This may be of no consequence if it's truly high days and holidays, but is worth knowing if you do the schlep to Spa or the Nurburgring. In my experience, setting off earlier and using A roads is always better anyway!
It's worth noting that Sevens really aren't about 0-60 times. It's a cracking figure and one that's easily rolled out to the lay person in a pub, but the true petrolhead knows with a Seven it's about the feedback, the handling, the exploitability and the cornering. In this regard, I would say a 1400 is a really good intro to this. Make no mistake, in the right hands it would be very fast down any A/B road. For me, it's been all about letting my hands find their way slowly. No ABS, no TC, only your inputs and most importantly, not a lot of metal between you and something you hit all serve to make you think about your inputs and respect the car's responses. I know I'm not the stig, plus I like my Seven the shape it is! You'll still be having fun at seven tenths and know you can catch it and I've truly never driven anything that's so intuitive. Every drive gains you more skill.
All of that advocation for a 1400 said, unless you plan to keep the car for a couple of years then upgrade to a bigger engine, if you can get a 1600, do so. I would still go for a better condition 1400 over a tired 1600, but then I'm mechanically disinclined, so am learning as I go. If you can happily diagnose issues and replace the tired and worn bits yourself, then no worries. A 1600 K is infinitely more tuneable whilst still retaining reliability. Yes, there are issues, but there are also solutions and lots of stuff on the internet about them!
Finally, on the subject of the five speeder in the 1400, it is fairly daft long ratios, though fifth is a godsend on the motorway. For driving that is more spirited in general the opinion is go for a six speeder and an LSD. I wouldn't get hung up on this too much. Get in the cars and drive them and the difference will be noticeable immediately ratio-wise, but a five-speed box isn't a deal breaker IMHO.
HTH.
Edit: Options wise, if you can get leather seats, do. The cloth ones are fine, but to replace with leather costs an arm, a leg, someone elses arm and a medium sized pot of gold. Second hand sets are rarer than rocking horse poo. Also, the old style handbrake under the dash is useless so hill starts are a hop from the clutch and brake to throttle. Not great when an old josser in a Volvo is millimetres from your bumper. Transmission tunnel handbrake - desirable.
Personally, I think a 1400 is a really good introduction into Seven ownership. But, you won't be disappointed, whatever you get!
First off, I'm surprised your insurance is quite that high, even for 21. I don't know your history, but I'd have thought a little more looking might get some more off that. Hopefully so anyway.
Regards mpg, I've been logging mine (also a 1400 K series) and am returning around 40mpg for an un-modded engine driven normally and with periods of pushing on. Not too shabby. Super/98 doesn't seem to make a difference to the figures, so just costs more, but for 2k miles a year the snakeoil properties they promise in engine-love might be worthwhile. Motorway driving is thirstier at 80+ than 70. This may be of no consequence if it's truly high days and holidays, but is worth knowing if you do the schlep to Spa or the Nurburgring. In my experience, setting off earlier and using A roads is always better anyway!
It's worth noting that Sevens really aren't about 0-60 times. It's a cracking figure and one that's easily rolled out to the lay person in a pub, but the true petrolhead knows with a Seven it's about the feedback, the handling, the exploitability and the cornering. In this regard, I would say a 1400 is a really good intro to this. Make no mistake, in the right hands it would be very fast down any A/B road. For me, it's been all about letting my hands find their way slowly. No ABS, no TC, only your inputs and most importantly, not a lot of metal between you and something you hit all serve to make you think about your inputs and respect the car's responses. I know I'm not the stig, plus I like my Seven the shape it is! You'll still be having fun at seven tenths and know you can catch it and I've truly never driven anything that's so intuitive. Every drive gains you more skill.
All of that advocation for a 1400 said, unless you plan to keep the car for a couple of years then upgrade to a bigger engine, if you can get a 1600, do so. I would still go for a better condition 1400 over a tired 1600, but then I'm mechanically disinclined, so am learning as I go. If you can happily diagnose issues and replace the tired and worn bits yourself, then no worries. A 1600 K is infinitely more tuneable whilst still retaining reliability. Yes, there are issues, but there are also solutions and lots of stuff on the internet about them!
Finally, on the subject of the five speeder in the 1400, it is fairly daft long ratios, though fifth is a godsend on the motorway. For driving that is more spirited in general the opinion is go for a six speeder and an LSD. I wouldn't get hung up on this too much. Get in the cars and drive them and the difference will be noticeable immediately ratio-wise, but a five-speed box isn't a deal breaker IMHO.
HTH.
Edit: Options wise, if you can get leather seats, do. The cloth ones are fine, but to replace with leather costs an arm, a leg, someone elses arm and a medium sized pot of gold. Second hand sets are rarer than rocking horse poo. Also, the old style handbrake under the dash is useless so hill starts are a hop from the clutch and brake to throttle. Not great when an old josser in a Volvo is millimetres from your bumper. Transmission tunnel handbrake - desirable.
Edited by Smitters on Wednesday 1st June 11:14
Some interesting advice there, thanks very much for the detailed reponse! I was quite pleased with the insurance, I will have to see if I can get it any lower, but that is less than half of what I am paying for my Cooper now, even that is cheap IMO compared to what others are paying!
That over-driven 5th sounds like what I would need it for most of the time, so I'm not sure that's a big issue (It is more likely that I will be on a road trip to somewhere like Spa, The Ring or Le Mans as you say to charging down the Hanger Straight!)
I think you are right, I think a drive will give me the best indication of what I want.
Best of luck with your Caterham too
That over-driven 5th sounds like what I would need it for most of the time, so I'm not sure that's a big issue (It is more likely that I will be on a road trip to somewhere like Spa, The Ring or Le Mans as you say to charging down the Hanger Straight!)
I think you are right, I think a drive will give me the best indication of what I want.
Best of luck with your Caterham too
I can only agree with Smitters advice. The 1400 is a little compromised on performance but you're still getting the real Seven experience. If you're mechanically-minded it's easy to swap for a 1600 or an 1800 that solves the problem with performance and the gear ratios. For insurance try MSM, Adrian Flux, Egger Lawson, Footman James or one of the other specialists.
I can't add much to the advice above as I haven't driven a 1.4. However, the 5 speed box is great for road use, I wouldn't swap to a 6 speed as I've had older cars with 4 speed and they are a pain on the motorway.
Fuel consumption is pretty good with a 1.6, I've had 40mpg from my Sigma 125 during mixed driving.
I'm sure you'll enjoy whatever you buy.
Fuel consumption is pretty good with a 1.6, I've had 40mpg from my Sigma 125 during mixed driving.
I'm sure you'll enjoy whatever you buy.
http://www.pistonheads.com/SALes/2765500.htm
No link to the seller but this looks nice and has the super sport hot cams, 6 speed box etc. From memory the 1400 is quite a revv'y engine loving to be spanked guess this works well with the 6 speed box if thats what floats your boat.
No link to the seller but this looks nice and has the super sport hot cams, 6 speed box etc. From memory the 1400 is quite a revv'y engine loving to be spanked guess this works well with the 6 speed box if thats what floats your boat.
Sounds like good advice to me. The 5 speed/6 speed debate rages. Here's my view...
The 1400 was essentially considered flawed with the 5 speed box. The 6 speeder came about partly to solve this.
I can't comment about the current spec big duranail caterhams as many seem to think that the 5 speed it right with the torque. But certainly with the k-series cars, the 6 speed is quintessential. It transforms the driving experience.
I'm not convinced about the "quiet for touring at higher speeds" argument. The 7 is not a quiet and relaxed place in any shape or form. If you are touring especially at higher speeds, you need ear protection anyway, so the extra revs are immaterial. The k-series was delivered to us from on high to rev and rev and rev!
Anyway you need to make up your own mind, but if it were me, I'd always go for the 6-speeder, even more so with a 1400.
If you can shop around more for insurance amongst the specialists you may find that the 1600 is no more expensive. That just gives you more choice of car.
HTH
Bert
The 1400 was essentially considered flawed with the 5 speed box. The 6 speeder came about partly to solve this.
I can't comment about the current spec big duranail caterhams as many seem to think that the 5 speed it right with the torque. But certainly with the k-series cars, the 6 speed is quintessential. It transforms the driving experience.
I'm not convinced about the "quiet for touring at higher speeds" argument. The 7 is not a quiet and relaxed place in any shape or form. If you are touring especially at higher speeds, you need ear protection anyway, so the extra revs are immaterial. The k-series was delivered to us from on high to rev and rev and rev!
Anyway you need to make up your own mind, but if it were me, I'd always go for the 6-speeder, even more so with a 1400.
If you can shop around more for insurance amongst the specialists you may find that the 1600 is no more expensive. That just gives you more choice of car.
HTH
Bert
Hi Mr T I owned a classic 1.4 for 18months then sold it for a 138 1.6k Supersport then sold that for a 160vvc and i have driven an R300K, 140roadsport, 125 sigma Superlight, 140 sigma, R300 Duratec, 1.6 105bhp Vauxhall and a Blackbird 7....
The most fun were the 1.4 classic and the 125 Superlight and just proves that power doesn't always = fun the classic was brilliant, as it's very revvy and had a very distinctive but loud exhaust note! with great throttle blips! with lovely loud pops and bangs, great fun too as i had to work the gearbox all the time to get the most out of it which added to the enjoyment. as for lack of power i wouldn't worry on the road as i started running group blats in Kent where the more powerful cars were struggling to keep up with me and as you say not a great deal in it on the road but a different matter on track were power and set up counts for so much... i absolutely loved my classic and really missed the sound it made, i've tried since to find that feeling again, the only 7 that came close was the 125 Supelight which was the CC Factory Courtesy car with trackday front and rear roll bars, 6 speed, LSD and lowered floors, Huge fun with again a great sound track pops and bangs etc i couldn't get enough of it!!!...
1.4 classic Fuel consumption was about 40mpg although 50mpg has been recorded before
Get the classic 1.4 and enjoy
The most fun were the 1.4 classic and the 125 Superlight and just proves that power doesn't always = fun the classic was brilliant, as it's very revvy and had a very distinctive but loud exhaust note! with great throttle blips! with lovely loud pops and bangs, great fun too as i had to work the gearbox all the time to get the most out of it which added to the enjoyment. as for lack of power i wouldn't worry on the road as i started running group blats in Kent where the more powerful cars were struggling to keep up with me and as you say not a great deal in it on the road but a different matter on track were power and set up counts for so much... i absolutely loved my classic and really missed the sound it made, i've tried since to find that feeling again, the only 7 that came close was the 125 Supelight which was the CC Factory Courtesy car with trackday front and rear roll bars, 6 speed, LSD and lowered floors, Huge fun with again a great sound track pops and bangs etc i couldn't get enough of it!!!...
1.4 classic Fuel consumption was about 40mpg although 50mpg has been recorded before
Get the classic 1.4 and enjoy
I couldn't disagree with the above comment more. Having done 250 miles early on Saturday on some of the best roads south Wales has to offer it was truly a joy. Fine, a six speeder or a 1.6 might be even better, but I don't think "truly awful" is anything approaching the truth. For the record, the lowly 1.4 kept a DC2 Integra and a chipped Civic very honest...and all on ropey tyres too.
Interesting feedback, looks like there are some real polar opposites out there!
I really appreciate all your feedback, but interesting to hear about the extra flexibility with the 1600 Sigma Lump. The only way I could afford a Sigma powered car would be to buy an ex-Academy car, would this be a bad move?
I really appreciate all your feedback, but interesting to hear about the extra flexibility with the 1600 Sigma Lump. The only way I could afford a Sigma powered car would be to buy an ex-Academy car, would this be a bad move?
Nowt wrong with a 1.4 classic. I loved mine.
Supersport kits sometimes come up here or on Blatchat, which are a set of cams and an ECU. Ups the power to 127-ish bhp and increases the limit by a few hundred rpm. Well worth having.
The 5-speed box is not really an issue, perhaps if you have had experience of a higher powered unit with a 6-speed but not if it is your first 7. Although, if you have the option of a 6 speed it would be well worth it. 6th is not that much of a chore on a motorway, especially for the limited mileage that you are talking about.
For such limited mileage I reckon that a nice 1.4 Roadsport/Classic with a SuperSport upgrade and a 6 speed box would be ideal.
If you can get out and about in a few first, even as a passenger, it would be advised.
Like others have said, any Cat would be a good one, a 1.6 VX, 1.4 k, crossflow, anything! Just get one, you won't regret it.
BB
Supersport kits sometimes come up here or on Blatchat, which are a set of cams and an ECU. Ups the power to 127-ish bhp and increases the limit by a few hundred rpm. Well worth having.
The 5-speed box is not really an issue, perhaps if you have had experience of a higher powered unit with a 6-speed but not if it is your first 7. Although, if you have the option of a 6 speed it would be well worth it. 6th is not that much of a chore on a motorway, especially for the limited mileage that you are talking about.
For such limited mileage I reckon that a nice 1.4 Roadsport/Classic with a SuperSport upgrade and a 6 speed box would be ideal.
If you can get out and about in a few first, even as a passenger, it would be advised.
Like others have said, any Cat would be a good one, a 1.6 VX, 1.4 k, crossflow, anything! Just get one, you won't regret it.
BB
I think people can get a bit hung up over power in Caterhams.
For some nothing less with 200bhp will do, others who have driven various models have commented that on the road they had a lot more fun with 120 to 130bhp because they had to really drive the car to get past other cars.
Remember, the Seven started with about 40 bhp, and the most powerful Lotus version only had 125bhp. I've read the old road tests and no one ever complained a twincam Seven was slow! I have a Sigma 125 and I'm very impressed with engine. It sounds great, is quite quick enough for the road and is surprisingly torquey.
If you don't want to try and burn off modern performance cars, and want to enjoy driving a 1.4 Seven will be great fun. If you can stretch to a 1.6 it'll have more torque, so you'll have more acceleration with the five speed box and still be able to cruise in overdrive top. Almost any Caterham will be fun, except possibly the really powerful ones, because I think I'd just terrify myself in a 200+bhp Seven.
For some nothing less with 200bhp will do, others who have driven various models have commented that on the road they had a lot more fun with 120 to 130bhp because they had to really drive the car to get past other cars.
Remember, the Seven started with about 40 bhp, and the most powerful Lotus version only had 125bhp. I've read the old road tests and no one ever complained a twincam Seven was slow! I have a Sigma 125 and I'm very impressed with engine. It sounds great, is quite quick enough for the road and is surprisingly torquey.
If you don't want to try and burn off modern performance cars, and want to enjoy driving a 1.4 Seven will be great fun. If you can stretch to a 1.6 it'll have more torque, so you'll have more acceleration with the five speed box and still be able to cruise in overdrive top. Almost any Caterham will be fun, except possibly the really powerful ones, because I think I'd just terrify myself in a 200+bhp Seven.
I mentioned torque not power. The problem with the 5 speed box is the ratios. The long first is OK on a 1600 but not on a 1400. I speak from being both an owner of a 1600 supersport with a 5 speed and having driven extensively 1400 6 speeds and 5 speeds - both supersports too. I agree that any Caterham will provide a driving experience more pure than any other car, but after that honeymoon period, the owner will start to to think about what his car lacks and how he can resolve those deficiencies. Which is why most 1400 owners find a 6 speed box, supersport the engine or just plain replace it with a bigger one.
The sigma is a different issue. It is a modern engine with sophisticated Ecu and, I am told, is a very good engine.
The sigma is a different issue. It is a modern engine with sophisticated Ecu and, I am told, is a very good engine.
Gassing Station | Caterham | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff