Advice on possible R300 purchase

[willmac]

Hi All,
Just to briefly explain situation. I have just sold my Porsche 996 Turbo, and had the intention of buying a 996 GT2. However , short and long term budget will be too stretched to effectively run a GT2 I think, especially if I do some track work which I intend to and end up with some hefty bills as Porsche's do seem to eat money in my experience !
Therefore I have started to think of a cheaper running option, and have narrowed my choice down to either an Ariel Atom or a Caterham. I have not had a chance to drive either of these as yet, but after doing research I think that the Caterham would be more suitable for my needs.

So I have some questions if anyone will be able to advise me please with regard to R300 car:
Is the Duratec engine superior to previous engine, and so better to look at later model R300 maybe ?
If I intend to use car on track and road for weekend outings / possible European trips to Spa etc, what spec should I be looking at ?
What should I look out for specifically on a used model, any usual weak points ?
I am assuming insurance will be group 20 ?
My budget will stretch to about 25K at the moment, so am I likely to find a decent used R300 for this price ?
If I stretched budget further , would I be daft to look at a new car rather than used / is depreciation an issue ?

Thanks in advance for any replies, and apologies if these questions have been covered before
Cheers

[David Long]

There's a lot of question there and probably as many opinions!

IMHO, it sound like you want a superlight and I think the R300 would be a good all-rounder for you but don't rule out a R400, just make sure it has a dry sump. The K can have issues on the higher BHP cars but should be OK at R300 spec. That said, the Duratec is a modern engine that's capable of 200BHP plus with out breaking sweat and the cars do go for a premium.

£25K may be a bit low for a good spec'ed car but it is a reasonable budget to start looking. Depreciation is low so you may want to think 'new' if going for the 175/R300 level.

Good luck

Edited by David Long on Monday 23 May 10:05

Edited by David Long on Monday 23 May 10:13

[thinfourth2]

willmac said:

I am assuming insurance will be group 20 ?

This is where you are going to get a BIG shock

last year my insurance was £140 a year

[2slo]

willmac said:

Hi All,
Just to briefly explain situation. I have just sold my Porsche 996 Turbo, and had the intention of buying a 996 GT2. However , short and long term budget will be too stretched to effectively run a GT2 I think, especially if I do some track work which I intend to and end up with some hefty bills as Porsche's do seem to eat money in my experience !
Therefore I have started to think of a cheaper running option, and have narrowed my choice down to either an Ariel Atom or a Caterham. I have not had a chance to drive either of these as yet, but after doing research I think that the Caterham would be more suitable for my needs.

So I have some questions if anyone will be able to advise me please with regard to R300 car:
Is the Duratec engine superior to previous engine, and so better to look at later model R300 maybe ?
If I intend to use car on track and road for weekend outings / possible European trips to Spa etc, what spec should I be looking at ?
What should I look out for specifically on a used model, any usual weak points ?
I am assuming insurance will be group 20 ?
My budget will stretch to about 25K at the moment, so am I likely to find a decent used R300 for this price ?
If I stretched budget further , would I be daft to look at a new car rather than used / is depreciation an issue ?

Thanks in advance for any replies, and apologies if these questions have been covered before
Cheers

Hi,

I can give you a couple of pointers based on my limited experience to date. Hopefully some of the more experienced Caterham owners can add to this.

Firstly choice of Caterham or Atom. Based on what you intend using the car for I'd say the Caterham is the best option. Driving to Spa in an Atom? The Caterham would be luxurious by comparison! You can make Caterhams fairly comfortable for touring, e.g. I've just bought a 'half hood' and wind deflector in advance of my Caterham arriving from the well recommended soft bits for sevens (http://www.softbitsforsevens.co.uk/) they sell various bags etc that would be good if you are packing to drive across Europe.

Running costs? Way less than just about any Porsche never mind a 996 turbo. To give you an idea my insurance is under £350 on an R400 (220bhp) 3k mileage limit, breakdown and Euro cover included. Thats with Footman James. In your case try Competition car insurance who include 5 track days in their policy (1 of which can be in Europe - not N/ring though!). They quoted me about £80 more than FJ and I may well use them next time (after I get to know the car on the road before taking it onto the track).

Engine choice? 2 for the R300. The 1.8 Xpower k series producing 160bhp in std form or the later 2.0 duratec producing 175bhp std. Which is better? I couldn't say from experience but having just been to a mechanical explanation type session at Caterham Midlands, they spent 1/3 of the time discussing k series cooling issues and associated HG problems. Nothing similar was mentioned re duratecs.

In terms of spec, probably one of the most variations on any car. I'd say a superlight would be best for track work (as against a roadsport which is more aimed at touring). Useful options to include LSD, dry sump, track day roll bar, race harnesses, BM switch, 13'' wheels instead of 15'' (have a look at advice on here covering this - 13'' are recommended by most people as best choice). I'd also suggest windscreen and 'doors' for road use plus interchangeable aeroscreen for track work (CC do that with their demo cars). Consider a roll cage for track use but no fun getting in and out!Choice of seats (leather or tillets) is personal as is lowered floors or std. Sit in/ drive as many as possible to make your choice (better choice of cars at CC south than midlands if you are looking there)

Based on your budget you will have plenty of choice of k series r300's (several advertised on PH presently)but I think you'll struggle to find a Duratec without paying a few thousand more. I started by looking at 2nd hand and eventually decided to order a new one to get exactly what I wanted. You might want to consider a duratec R400 as these have been in production a bit longer than the duratec R300 and you would get a more powerful car with the same basic engine for less money. Having driven both I much preferred the R400 (35bhp does make a noticeable difference in a Caterham!) and the duratec R400 has a std lsd and dry sump system which are options on the R300 and may not be fitted so check the spec carefully!

Depreciation? new Caterhams lose several thousand when you drive them away but depreciate fairly slowly after that. A Caterham bought for £25k in winter and looked after well for a couple of years shouldn't cost you much when you sell it on.

Others can no doubt offer more but I hope that helps.

Mark.

[Seven Smiles]

I think this answers most of your questions I'm paying £300+ for insurance (10k miles) and that's after a recent big bill for an off. It will give an R500 a run for its money on track in the right hands but is perfectly usable for touring - I set out on on a 2000 mile trip round Scotland last week but cracked the sump and had to abort

(No commercial connection, just that I have a very similar car.)

Edited by Seven Smiles on Monday 23 May 10:50

[willmac]

Gents,

Thanks for all your replies so far. Many of my questions I am sure have been answered many times before, so appreciate your time.
2slo, very in depth answer to my novice queries which is much appreciated.

Already my mind is made up it will certainly be a Caterham next for me. And as stated, I will just have to get out there and find out which I like best.

I have had several Porsche's now and regardless what anyone say's they cost shedloads to keep running. Or maybe I have just been unlucky. However, after the last few bills for the turbo I reckon it is time to move on and be sensible about a weekend / track car that will put a huge smile on my face without breaking the bank.

Thanks again folks. Will update once I get some where near a conclusion.

[grenpayne]

Just to add a few points...

You brief sounds like you want a Superlight as you get all the nice bits like wide-track adjustable suspension, bigger AP brakes etc. One thing to note though - there are two types of gearboxes in Sevens, five and six speed. The Superlight comes with the six speed as standard and is IMO superb. For fast road and track work it is epic, but for cruising you do need to know that sixth gear is the same ratio as fourth in the five-speeder, meaning touring revs are high. Mine does about 4.5k rpm on the motorway at around 85mph and can get tiresome after an hour or so. That said when you're 'pressing on' down a B road it's fabulous

All the points made on spec are spot on, and I would echo the points on the LSD. Well worthwhile and the car is a complete hoot to drive with one.

I would say don't be scared of a K series car. I wanted a Duratec too but settled in the end for a very well spec'd K. I have no HG or cooling issues and with the Roller Barrel Throttle Bodies it sounds lovely (if a touch noisy). And by God does it like to rev So maybe something like this would suit?

K Series R400

Oh and lastly I agree with the comments about the half-hood. Awesome bit of kit!

Bottom line, get to Caterham (I can see it's a long way for you though so probably the Leicester showroom) and drive loads of different types. You'll soon narrow down what you like and don't. Just make sure you take your wallet...

[subirg]

Good suggestions so far from all. Just to add one more point of view...

If you get a Duratec, you don't have to have the dry sump unless you are going to be using ZZRs or slicks. An R300 Duratec with wet sump is fine. Even factory R400s came with wet sump until recently. LSD is a 'must have'.

Good luck with the hunt!

[David Long]

subirg said:

Good suggestions so far from all. If you get a Duratec, you don't have to have the dry sump unless you are going to be using ZZRs or slicks. An R300 Duratec with wet sump is fine. Even factory R400s came with wet sump until recently.

Good luck with the hunt!

Not my experience I'm afraid . . . .

subirg said:

'Even factory R400s came with wet sump until recently'

is the clue here!

This is the lowest seen oil pressure for a R400 on CR500's.



The Raceline sump is very good but it can give problems on track. The thing is a Duratec is a tough engine with well designed bearings that survive intermittent oil starvation. It is just not a good idea to buy one that's been exposed to potential damage.

For those who haven't read it already, my full story here

http://www.scottishelises.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?...

Edited by David Long on Wednesday 25th May 09:06

[2slo]

Hi David,

I tried to email you with a couple of technical questions but the email delivery failed for some reason? Could you send me your email address and I'll try again please?

Thanks,

Mark.

[willmac]

Thanks again for all your posts. Gaining a lot of useful info here.

[subirg]

Hi David

Interestingly enough, I did read your very well put together write up before deciding to follow the same path that you did - namely to upgrade to dry sump, and to upgrade to 220bhp. Very pleased with the results! If you haven't tried them yet, I'd highly recommend the ZZR tyres on track.

For added peace of mind, I agree that the dry sump is worthwhile, but it's not as critical as on the k series.

[David Long]

subirg said:

If you haven't tried them yet, I'd highly recommend the ZZR tyres on track.

I've religiously stuck to CR500's in the past, but you're right - there's been some good comments about the ZZR so I'll give them a go.


Edit: 2slo - got your email and reply sent.

Edited by David Long on Wednesday 25th May 11:36

[willmac]

Had a bit of a re-think on this one, and I reckon I am going to go for a new Supersport.

All told it seems like pretty good value to me. It's minimalist equipment and raw edge I believe have swung it for me ( all that is stated without having yet driven one I must add !! )

It's going to be a keeper for some time. Will only come out on the few sunny days we get, but I will tackle some track days whatever the weather. I reckon it is going to be quick enough for what I need it for as well. But, maybe as time goes on I will seek more power.I know what the slippery slope is like.

Thanks again though for all your replies, in regard to the r300 option I initially was looking into.

[Markp13]

Supersport, good choice, I quite like that idea myself. Have you spoken to caterhams about options ect

willmac said:

Had a bit of a re-think on this one, and I reckon I am going to go for a new Supersport.

All told it seems like pretty good value to me. It's minimalist equipment and raw edge I believe have swung it for me ( all that is stated without having yet driven one I must add !! )

It's going to be a keeper for some time. Will only come out on the few sunny days we get, but I will tackle some track days whatever the weather. I reckon it is going to be quick enough for what I need it for as well. But, maybe as time goes on I will seek more power.I know what the slippery slope is like.

Thanks again though for all your replies, in regard to the r300 option I initially was looking into.

[willmac]

Hi Mark,

I dropped them an e mail to ask about build time, and was told that to order now would give an October delivery.
So what I was thinking was maybe to go the route of self build over the winter to have car ready for next Spring. Only problem is the other half would rather I spent the extra 3 grand instead of becoming a full time garage widow !

I am lucky enough to have big garage inclusive of service pit, so would be ideal for self build I guess and wouldn't matter how long I took to complete project.

But either way am certain now to go for the Supersport.

[Markp13]

How have you chosen to spec it?

[grenpayne]

Markp13 said:

How have you chosen to spec it?

Very interested as well, you never see two Caterhams the same

I think the Supersport looks fab, the *only* thing that I don't like is the 6" rear wheels. I think they look a little lost in the arches and that 8" wheels would look better. But then I'm a fussy bugger, so please feel free to ignore me!

Do you know how the 'sprint' 5 speed box differs from the normal 5 speeder?

[2slo]

willmac said:

Only problem is the other half would rather I spent the extra 3 grand instead of becoming a full time garage widow !

Compromise. Build it yourself and spend the 3 grand on 'vital' options;)

Nothing on the CC specsheet about the 'sprint ratio' 5 speed gearbox. Probably means 5th is geared at about 12mph per thousand revs! Std spec is:

1.6-litre Caterham Powertrain (CPT) "Supersport" engine
5-speed sprint ratio Caterham gearbox
Limited slip differential
Lightweight flywheel
Track-optimised cooling package
De-Dion rear suspension with Supersport Dampers
Wide track front suspension with Supersport race dampers
Powder coated interior with Composite race seats
13" alloy wheels with 6Jx13 AVON CR500 tyres front and rear
4 point race harness
Push button start
Immobilizer
Shift Light
Composite aero screen
Bespoke Supersport half doors, tunnel top and boot cover
Bespoke Supersport Dashboard
Black pack

Looks like a reasonable spec for the money. Good luck & I'm looking forward to another winter build thread

[jackal]

willmac said:

Hi Mark,

I dropped them an e mail to ask about build time, and was told that to order now would give an October delivery.
So what I was thinking was maybe to go the route of self build over the winter to have car ready for next Spring. Only problem is the other half would rather I spent the extra 3 grand instead of becoming a full time garage widow !

I am lucky enough to have big garage inclusive of service pit, so would be ideal for self build I guess and wouldn't matter how long I took to complete project.

But either way am certain now to go for the Supersport.

If you are doing lots of trackdays then get a proper cage with proper FIA padding. I might not be here now if I didn't have all that on my last caterham.

In 99 cases out of 100 you will never need the cage and that's why
on threads like this people will rarely recommend it but having been the unlucky 1 person in the 100 I can tell you with absolute certainty that you should get a full cage.

The other thing is, having owned both and now not owning either so having no vested interest, I would firmly advise you to get a duratec engine. Most owners are still K series owners so naturally the engine will gets lots of recommendations but objectively the Duratec is miles better than the K in every sense and unless it's a difference of a huge amount of money and very strict budget restrictions, there is now no reason to get an old K series car.

Edited by jackal on Wednesday 1st June 13:30