Manual vs Auto (C5 or C6)...and a TC question
Discussion
Hi all,
Am considering an early-00's 'vette (it's either that or an NSX...have driven an NSX and like it but have a hankering for a V8 before I get sensible, so...) - budget will stretch to a mint C5, decent C5 Z06, or an early C6 at a push.
Now historically I've always been a manual 'box sort of chap...the S-Type R I drove with an Auto just felt too 'aloof' and slow-witted for the sort of car it was supposed to be, and I'm assuming the 'vette will be the same.
...but I've read some poor reports about the manual 'box in the car. And I can't find a manual C5 for sale anywhere!!!
So could anyone who's driven both tell me:-
- what the manual is like (also the clutch - how heavy, e.g. vs a Chimaera, NSX, M3 etc...)?
- what the auto is like?
- whether the auto has any sort of J-gate override/lockdown?
Oh...one other question - Traction Control / ESP - what's the car got, how well judged is it, how much latitude does it give you and do you ever switch it off?!?
Thanks all,
Martin.
Am considering an early-00's 'vette (it's either that or an NSX...have driven an NSX and like it but have a hankering for a V8 before I get sensible, so...) - budget will stretch to a mint C5, decent C5 Z06, or an early C6 at a push.
Now historically I've always been a manual 'box sort of chap...the S-Type R I drove with an Auto just felt too 'aloof' and slow-witted for the sort of car it was supposed to be, and I'm assuming the 'vette will be the same.
...but I've read some poor reports about the manual 'box in the car. And I can't find a manual C5 for sale anywhere!!!
So could anyone who's driven both tell me:-
- what the manual is like (also the clutch - how heavy, e.g. vs a Chimaera, NSX, M3 etc...)?
- what the auto is like?
- whether the auto has any sort of J-gate override/lockdown?
Oh...one other question - Traction Control / ESP - what's the car got, how well judged is it, how much latitude does it give you and do you ever switch it off?!?
Thanks all,
Martin.
I've owned an auto C5 and a manual C6. The auto box in the C6 (esp. the paddle-shift version) is a very different beast, which I can't comment on having never driven one. So, here goes based on my personal experience...
The auto box in the C5 is a 4-speed (4L60E). It offers pseudo-manual control by shifting manually through 1st, 2nd, 3rd and D, or full auto by just leaving it in D. I say pseudo-manual because it will still change-down to a lower gear (but won't change-up) when shifting manually. The performance difference between auto and manual is small and, in most conditions, an auto will probably be quicker (esp. off the line). In terms of driver enjoyment though, I'd say the manual box is the one to go for. The auto can also have a nasty tendency to change-down in the middle of a fast corner if you're not very careful.
The 6-speed manual in the C6 is a strong box, but doesn't offer a great gear-change. It's rather notchy and (despite using ATF) is a bit obstructive when cold and can be stiff to get into 2nd, for example. That being said, the ratios are well-judged and it's satisfying to be in total control of when gear changes happen. Clutch on the C6 is very light (too light, in fact). This is because the pedal is fitted with an 'assist spring'. I've changed mine for a C5 assist spring, which makes the weighting just about perfect. Clutch is certainly lighter than a TVR Chim, Cerbera and many other comparable cars.
Regarding TC, all C5s and C6s have TC. SOME C5s have Active Handling (AH) as it was an optional extra on the C5. ALL C6s have AH. In the C5, the TC is quite crude and will suddenly cut power if triggered. The TC and AH systems in the C6 are definitely better and quite progressive. You also have the option of 'Competitive Driving Mode', which allows more lattitude to get things out of shape before the AH safety net comes to your rescue. In virtually all circumstances, you'd want to be driving with TC and AH engaged. If you want to have some fun, you can disable TC and leave AH engaged (this will even enable you to do a burn-out). So, in summary, C5 TC is a bit crap, but essential. C6 TC and AH is very good, IMO.
What's your budget? There's quite a difference between C5 and C6 prices. C6s start at around £25k, whereas C5s top-out at around £20k. Having said that, there's a ridiculously under-priced C6 (£22k) on Auto Trader at the moment.
The auto box in the C5 is a 4-speed (4L60E). It offers pseudo-manual control by shifting manually through 1st, 2nd, 3rd and D, or full auto by just leaving it in D. I say pseudo-manual because it will still change-down to a lower gear (but won't change-up) when shifting manually. The performance difference between auto and manual is small and, in most conditions, an auto will probably be quicker (esp. off the line). In terms of driver enjoyment though, I'd say the manual box is the one to go for. The auto can also have a nasty tendency to change-down in the middle of a fast corner if you're not very careful.
The 6-speed manual in the C6 is a strong box, but doesn't offer a great gear-change. It's rather notchy and (despite using ATF) is a bit obstructive when cold and can be stiff to get into 2nd, for example. That being said, the ratios are well-judged and it's satisfying to be in total control of when gear changes happen. Clutch on the C6 is very light (too light, in fact). This is because the pedal is fitted with an 'assist spring'. I've changed mine for a C5 assist spring, which makes the weighting just about perfect. Clutch is certainly lighter than a TVR Chim, Cerbera and many other comparable cars.
Regarding TC, all C5s and C6s have TC. SOME C5s have Active Handling (AH) as it was an optional extra on the C5. ALL C6s have AH. In the C5, the TC is quite crude and will suddenly cut power if triggered. The TC and AH systems in the C6 are definitely better and quite progressive. You also have the option of 'Competitive Driving Mode', which allows more lattitude to get things out of shape before the AH safety net comes to your rescue. In virtually all circumstances, you'd want to be driving with TC and AH engaged. If you want to have some fun, you can disable TC and leave AH engaged (this will even enable you to do a burn-out). So, in summary, C5 TC is a bit crap, but essential. C6 TC and AH is very good, IMO.
What's your budget? There's quite a difference between C5 and C6 prices. C6s start at around £25k, whereas C5s top-out at around £20k. Having said that, there's a ridiculously under-priced C6 (£22k) on Auto Trader at the moment.
Edited by ian_uk1975 on Monday 8th June 14:25
I've owned both a C5 (4spd) auto and a C6 (6spd) auto.
I'd agree with everything Ian has said about the C5 auto and TC/AH. For the C6, the 2005 models still had a 4spd auto like the C5 (but upgraded), whereas the 2006 onwards models have a 6spd with paddle-shift. If you leave the car in D or S, in some ways the 6spd is a backwards step as there's a much greater chance of the box hunting for gears or shifting just when you don't want it to. I always use the paddles, which work very well. The box won't shift up if you're using the paddles (so watch out for the limiter) and won't kick-down...but it will shift down if your speed drops too low for the selected gear (usually less than about 800 or 900 revs). The shift-speed on 2008 onwards cars is better than on 2006/2007 cars, and you also get rev-matching on downshifts which not only works very well but also sounds great if you have an aftermarket exhaust
I'd agree with everything Ian has said about the C5 auto and TC/AH. For the C6, the 2005 models still had a 4spd auto like the C5 (but upgraded), whereas the 2006 onwards models have a 6spd with paddle-shift. If you leave the car in D or S, in some ways the 6spd is a backwards step as there's a much greater chance of the box hunting for gears or shifting just when you don't want it to. I always use the paddles, which work very well. The box won't shift up if you're using the paddles (so watch out for the limiter) and won't kick-down...but it will shift down if your speed drops too low for the selected gear (usually less than about 800 or 900 revs). The shift-speed on 2008 onwards cars is better than on 2006/2007 cars, and you also get rev-matching on downshifts which not only works very well but also sounds great if you have an aftermarket exhaust
Edited by GW65 on Monday 8th June 14:39
Budget is low-£20's, hence why I'm looking at both - I seem to be stuck in no-mans land between them.
I want something:-
- driver-focused (I gather an LSD was optional on the C5, what about the C6?)
- without being TOO stiff/crashy (what's the Z51 pack like?)
- or TOO much of a handful* (AH sounds like a useful option on the C5).
I'm not expecting a Caterham, and have the ITR for blasting down twisty B-roads, but I want to steer away from anything that's soft, wallowy or in any way Merc-like!!!
Next question - what's the suspension at the front? Double-wishbones, McPhersons, or...? IIRC it's leaf-springs at the back, right? I'm wondering how adjustable camber and castor are (if at all), as well as toe...
Thanks again guys!
* Got to being quite happy with the S2000 in the wet with my revised geometry settings, but the torque levels were such that you HAD to provoke it even in the wet (rough steering inputs, late-braking, or sharp throttle) to get the back end to break loose...can imagine even a stock C5 is a little 'looser' with TC off?!?
I want something:-
- driver-focused (I gather an LSD was optional on the C5, what about the C6?)
- without being TOO stiff/crashy (what's the Z51 pack like?)
- or TOO much of a handful* (AH sounds like a useful option on the C5).
I'm not expecting a Caterham, and have the ITR for blasting down twisty B-roads, but I want to steer away from anything that's soft, wallowy or in any way Merc-like!!!
Next question - what's the suspension at the front? Double-wishbones, McPhersons, or...? IIRC it's leaf-springs at the back, right? I'm wondering how adjustable camber and castor are (if at all), as well as toe...
Thanks again guys!
* Got to being quite happy with the S2000 in the wet with my revised geometry settings, but the torque levels were such that you HAD to provoke it even in the wet (rough steering inputs, late-braking, or sharp throttle) to get the back end to break loose...can imagine even a stock C5 is a little 'looser' with TC off?!?
I have a 2000 C5 with Z51 manual 6 speed. Suspension is taught, but not filling rattling harsh. Levels of grip are good with the right tyres, none of the famous "Corvette Hop", and all is sweet from a handling perspective - but brakes run out quite quickly on track on standard trim.
Transmission - well, the six speed manual is ok through 5th, but 5th is an overdrive and 6th is an even longer cruising gear really, which is great for motorway economy, but nothing to do with driving. Ratios to 5th are fine, the engine pulls heartily across each change, and the quoted performance figures are easily achievable. I have a Hurst short shift on mine, which seems to make the long throw a lot better than a standard car. Synchro is a bit slow, and the TC is very intrusive, typically kicking in after you have started to correct the issue, so mine is typically off.
My gearbox is just up for replacement at 125,000 miles. Longevity does not seem to be a problem, and I do not only drive in Sainsbury's car park.
With any performance car, as a personal preference, I would never buy and auto. Paddle shift - reports are that the C6 paddle is quite good, but I have not tried it. C5 auto, I test drove one and would not have bought it for my use (road and track).
So, IMHO, if you are going to run around a major traffic congested city all day, buy the auto. If you want some seriously spirited driving where you are fully in charge, buy the manual every time, whether a Corvette or any other marque.
Oh, by the way, red ones are quickest
Transmission - well, the six speed manual is ok through 5th, but 5th is an overdrive and 6th is an even longer cruising gear really, which is great for motorway economy, but nothing to do with driving. Ratios to 5th are fine, the engine pulls heartily across each change, and the quoted performance figures are easily achievable. I have a Hurst short shift on mine, which seems to make the long throw a lot better than a standard car. Synchro is a bit slow, and the TC is very intrusive, typically kicking in after you have started to correct the issue, so mine is typically off.
My gearbox is just up for replacement at 125,000 miles. Longevity does not seem to be a problem, and I do not only drive in Sainsbury's car park.
With any performance car, as a personal preference, I would never buy and auto. Paddle shift - reports are that the C6 paddle is quite good, but I have not tried it. C5 auto, I test drove one and would not have bought it for my use (road and track).
So, IMHO, if you are going to run around a major traffic congested city all day, buy the auto. If you want some seriously spirited driving where you are fully in charge, buy the manual every time, whether a Corvette or any other marque.
Oh, by the way, red ones are quickest
havoc said:
Next question - what's the suspension at the front? Double-wishbones, McPhersons, or...? IIRC it's leaf-springs at the back, right? I'm wondering how adjustable camber and castor are (if at all), as well as toe...
Argh!! Suspension is double wishbones all round. Clarkson has screwed the modern Vettes' reputation by dismissing the leaf springs, but the reality is a single (transverse) composite monospring at each end, fixed in the centre with each end of the spring attached to the wheel hub. They *only* serve as springs and do nothing to influence the geometry of the suspension. It's therefore nothing like the sort of live-axle set-up that Clarkson derides.
http://www.web-cars.com/corvette/1997-3.php etc.
HTH.
Edited by sublimatica on Monday 8th June 19:58
This chap has my old C6 for sale: (Alan) alanjwoodford@talktalk.net It's a mint C6 2005, lots of additions fitted to the car (by me!) and is Victory red, manual with around 14k on the clock. I only sold it because I purchased a new Z06.
If you need his telephone number (he doesn't check his emails very often) then PM me.
For images of my old car click here: http://rides.webshots.com/album/560823752jwlqSJ
It shows when I first got it and slowly added some desirable accessories as the months of ownership went by.
Quite why the album has had over 3000 views is beyond me!
If you need his telephone number (he doesn't check his emails very often) then PM me.
For images of my old car click here: http://rides.webshots.com/album/560823752jwlqSJ
It shows when I first got it and slowly added some desirable accessories as the months of ownership went by.
Quite why the album has had over 3000 views is beyond me!
Edited by G4HKS on Monday 8th June 22:36
havoc said:
Sublimatica - excellent, that's exactly what I wanted to hear, thanks! Does that mean you CAN adjust the camber and castor?
SeeFive...sounds pretty fair...I'm definitely holding out for a manual then!
On the C6, camber, castor and toe are all fully-adjustable without the need for special bolts, or the like (like my AMG CLK55, for example). Can't speak for the C5, but I would assume it's the same.SeeFive...sounds pretty fair...I'm definitely holding out for a manual then!
G4HKS said:
This chap has my old C6 for sale: (Alan) alanjwoodford@talktalk.net It's a mint C6 2005, lots of additions fitted to the car (by me!) and is Victory red, manual with around 14k on the clock. I only sold it because I purchased a new Z06.
If you need his telephone number (he doesn't check his emails very often) then PM me.
I take it price is in the low £20k range?If you need his telephone number (he doesn't check his emails very often) then PM me.
ian_uk1975 said:
havoc said:
Sublimatica - excellent, that's exactly what I wanted to hear, thanks! Does that mean you CAN adjust the camber and castor?
SeeFive...sounds pretty fair...I'm definitely holding out for a manual then!
On the C6, camber, castor and toe are all fully-adjustable without the need for special bolts, or the like (like my AMG CLK55, for example). Can't speak for the C5, but I would assume it's the same.SeeFive...sounds pretty fair...I'm definitely holding out for a manual then!
Edited by z06tim on Tuesday 9th June 09:22
there is a 2002 Electron Blue C5 Z06 for £17,999 on the club website www.corvetteclub.org.uk
havoc said:
- driver-focused (I gather an LSD was optional on the C5, what about the C6?)
LSD was standard on C5 and on C6, as it should be on a performance car. There were some problems with leaking diff seals on the C5, not heard of any on the C6. I had a Z4 between my C5 and C6 and even with its limited power and torque it was a pain in the a**e not having an LSD - electronics just don't do the same job.vetteheadracer said:
there is a 2002 Electron Blue C5 Z06 for £17,999 on the club website www.corvetteclub.org.uk
I can recommend one of these!! They are an awful lot of performance for the price!Someone earlier raised a concern about C5 TC/Active-Handling. I would comment that i find the system pretty good on the C5Z06 allowing a reasonable level of slip and the rather nice "competitive driving" mode. All the Z06 model years should have the AH part as standard. I cannot comment on the earlier C5 TC only system, but my '94 LT1 had a very crude system, and i can only imagine it was much improved on early C5's.
z06tim said:
vetteheadracer said:
there is a 2002 Electron Blue C5 Z06 for £17,999 on the club website www.corvetteclub.org.uk
I can recommend one of these!! They are an awful lot of performance for the price!Thing is at the moment, I just want to find one to drive - I don't want to waste a private seller's time when I might step out of it and go "nice, but not the car for me"*. Once I've decided, then it's a 'simple'
matter of finding the right car.* Then again, how often do people do just that...
C5 is a great car for the money with astounding performance and an able chassis. Not the most communicative chassis/steering but massively better than the standard British prejudice would have you believe. I've found good conventional tyres give a significant ride/handling benefit compared with the standard run-flats.
The 4 speed auto works fine and a manual downshift can be useful when preparing for an overtake. When "pressing on" the car can just be left in third gear, which gives a massive speed range, and occasionally downshifted to second if necessary. As someone else said, the tranny doesn't have a lateral-G lock-out so can shift mid-corner just where you wouldn't. Car has massive grip though.
My traction control is the basic system (no active handling). Again, it works. And it doesn't get in the way. It definitely allows some slip and I can be off the throttle before the TC intervenes.
Bear in mind that two thirds of all Vettes sold are auto and you can see they put a lot of work into getting the engine and transmission to work well together. There's no indication of any real world performance difference between manual and auto. Definitely a case of "try before you buy" to make a decision between the two.
The 4 speed auto works fine and a manual downshift can be useful when preparing for an overtake. When "pressing on" the car can just be left in third gear, which gives a massive speed range, and occasionally downshifted to second if necessary. As someone else said, the tranny doesn't have a lateral-G lock-out so can shift mid-corner just where you wouldn't. Car has massive grip though.
My traction control is the basic system (no active handling). Again, it works. And it doesn't get in the way. It definitely allows some slip and I can be off the throttle before the TC intervenes.
Bear in mind that two thirds of all Vettes sold are auto and you can see they put a lot of work into getting the engine and transmission to work well together. There's no indication of any real world performance difference between manual and auto. Definitely a case of "try before you buy" to make a decision between the two.
havoc said:
z06tim said:
vetteheadracer said:
there is a 2002 Electron Blue C5 Z06 for £17,999 on the club website www.corvetteclub.org.uk
I can recommend one of these!! They are an awful lot of performance for the price!Thing is at the moment, I just want to find one to drive - I don't want to waste a private seller's time when I might step out of it and go "nice, but not the car for me"*. Once I've decided, then it's a 'simple'
matter of finding the right car.* Then again, how often do people do just that...
all C5 Z06's have the boot and not the hatch back so if you don't like the look you won't like any of the C5 Z06s......which is a shame as they are great cars (I have owned two).
Edited by vetteheadracer on Tuesday 9th June 21:12
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