Discussion
I thought I'd start a thread here, since the huge thread in the Gassing Station area seems to be inhabited by people who think Front Wheel Drive is acceptable. Perhaps there are more realistic people here on the Corvette forum.
May I just say that as an RS fan and ex-owner of a lovely black RS2000 Escort, I long for a new decent, affordable RWD car in the same vein as the mk1 or mk2 RS Escort, or even the later Sierra, Sapphire and Escort RS Cosworths.
A car that motorsport enthusiasts can buy and tune, knowing that the hardware they are buying is effectively a detuned version of the rally/race cars they see driven by their heroes. (The Corvette Z06 ticks these boxes, properly)
The new RS Focus is front wheel drive, and shares no mechanicals with the WRC car. It may well turn out to be a well developed road car, but it certainly doesn't follow the RS tradition of giving the public with what is effectively a homologated rally/race car with all the right bits.
FWD was invented to reduce production costs (fewer parts, and simpler production lines) and also to create interior space since there is no longer a transmission tunnel and rear axle to deal with. It certainly was not invented to make cars go faster or round corners better, because FWD does neither of these things better than if the same car had have been designed with RWD from the outset.
Ford have really missed a huge opportunity here, and since the market they are pitching the RS at is clearly road car buyers who are very unlikely to compete the car in a motorsport event (other than a RWYB drag race) then Ford will struggle as the >£25k price tag in this current credit crisis. Ordinary road car people who are not mototivated by Motorsport to get one at all costs just want a nice road car that EVO gives a glowing review about so they can boast at the pub it is better than some other hideous hatchback like the Megane R26R or Peugeot 207. As such, I guess they will like the RS, I just feel that the ST is there for those people, the RS should have been 4WD or RWD and aimed at the club motorsport market. That is why RS became so popular in the first place, nowadays with this cynical marketing use of the RS badge they are killing their most excellent brand.
May I just say that as an RS fan and ex-owner of a lovely black RS2000 Escort, I long for a new decent, affordable RWD car in the same vein as the mk1 or mk2 RS Escort, or even the later Sierra, Sapphire and Escort RS Cosworths.
A car that motorsport enthusiasts can buy and tune, knowing that the hardware they are buying is effectively a detuned version of the rally/race cars they see driven by their heroes. (The Corvette Z06 ticks these boxes, properly)
The new RS Focus is front wheel drive, and shares no mechanicals with the WRC car. It may well turn out to be a well developed road car, but it certainly doesn't follow the RS tradition of giving the public with what is effectively a homologated rally/race car with all the right bits.
FWD was invented to reduce production costs (fewer parts, and simpler production lines) and also to create interior space since there is no longer a transmission tunnel and rear axle to deal with. It certainly was not invented to make cars go faster or round corners better, because FWD does neither of these things better than if the same car had have been designed with RWD from the outset.
Ford have really missed a huge opportunity here, and since the market they are pitching the RS at is clearly road car buyers who are very unlikely to compete the car in a motorsport event (other than a RWYB drag race) then Ford will struggle as the >£25k price tag in this current credit crisis. Ordinary road car people who are not mototivated by Motorsport to get one at all costs just want a nice road car that EVO gives a glowing review about so they can boast at the pub it is better than some other hideous hatchback like the Megane R26R or Peugeot 207. As such, I guess they will like the RS, I just feel that the ST is there for those people, the RS should have been 4WD or RWD and aimed at the club motorsport market. That is why RS became so popular in the first place, nowadays with this cynical marketing use of the RS badge they are killing their most excellent brand.
Isn't the next Corvette going to be front-wheel drive?
Or do I mean mid-engined?
Joking aside, it's hardly an RS2000, is it?
"RS brand" apparently "the legend returns"
www.rs2.co.uk/ guff
Or do I mean mid-engined?
Joking aside, it's hardly an RS2000, is it?
"RS brand" apparently "the legend returns"
www.rs2.co.uk/ guff
I'm sorry - I think you're living in fantasy land on this one, on so many levels:
Ford is a mass producer of cars, only exception to this would be something like the GT40 (although as supercar production runs go, it's still one of the larger ones). Ford is there to make money too, especially right now when they're not exactly winning that fight either.
If you go back to the roots of anything RS in Fords historical catalogue, then you'll find every one, from teh Escort RS's, Capri 3100's etc. were all very close to the other models in the range, I don't belive there has been any special dispensation to produce anything driving the other pair or more pairs of wheels than the standard range (exception I think is the, I think, Mk V? RS2000 Escort and building on this the Cosworth Escort, but then they did have the 4X4 Sierra floorpan to stick the Escort body on).
They're not going to sell enough RWD RS's to cover the costs over the thousands they'll sell anyway, it wouldn't be quick enough over the ST. I think what you're asking for is more like the modern equivalent of the Gartrac Escorts.
Knocking FWD is also a bit extreme. Sometime ago someone said there was a limit around 200 Hp through the front wheels, yes it can get scary above this (original Focus RS had a few semi clever things along side some bodges to manage this, like low boost etc.), but it is done a lot today and tuned up cars running 300 hp don't seem to be the ditch seeking missiles they once might have been. FWD frees up cabin space, and can be used to good effect to allow the designers some freedom in packaging. And there are some brilliantly handling, and entertaining to drive FWD motors out there. I did used to subscribe to 'anything FWD is for girls' but have since found this is an old fashioned view, there is plenty of FWD things out there that can mix it with RWD and FWD.
Also, with the packaging of the Focus, how would you propose to get anywhere a decent front/rear weight distribution? Move the dashboard right back (which you'd probably need to do to get the engine in longitudinally, that's before we mention any underbonnet clearances to suit pedestrian crash protection regs)? It just ends up seeming too much trouble to please a few that feel it should be the spiritual successor to the Mk 1 or 2 Escort.
The world's moved on - it'll corner great, be great fun to drive, take the shopping, have a warranty, start more times than it won't, probably have a good stereo and it probably won't down fuel like a pair of Webers either - welcome to modern motoring.
Ford is a mass producer of cars, only exception to this would be something like the GT40 (although as supercar production runs go, it's still one of the larger ones). Ford is there to make money too, especially right now when they're not exactly winning that fight either.
If you go back to the roots of anything RS in Fords historical catalogue, then you'll find every one, from teh Escort RS's, Capri 3100's etc. were all very close to the other models in the range, I don't belive there has been any special dispensation to produce anything driving the other pair or more pairs of wheels than the standard range (exception I think is the, I think, Mk V? RS2000 Escort and building on this the Cosworth Escort, but then they did have the 4X4 Sierra floorpan to stick the Escort body on).
They're not going to sell enough RWD RS's to cover the costs over the thousands they'll sell anyway, it wouldn't be quick enough over the ST. I think what you're asking for is more like the modern equivalent of the Gartrac Escorts.
Knocking FWD is also a bit extreme. Sometime ago someone said there was a limit around 200 Hp through the front wheels, yes it can get scary above this (original Focus RS had a few semi clever things along side some bodges to manage this, like low boost etc.), but it is done a lot today and tuned up cars running 300 hp don't seem to be the ditch seeking missiles they once might have been. FWD frees up cabin space, and can be used to good effect to allow the designers some freedom in packaging. And there are some brilliantly handling, and entertaining to drive FWD motors out there. I did used to subscribe to 'anything FWD is for girls' but have since found this is an old fashioned view, there is plenty of FWD things out there that can mix it with RWD and FWD.
Also, with the packaging of the Focus, how would you propose to get anywhere a decent front/rear weight distribution? Move the dashboard right back (which you'd probably need to do to get the engine in longitudinally, that's before we mention any underbonnet clearances to suit pedestrian crash protection regs)? It just ends up seeming too much trouble to please a few that feel it should be the spiritual successor to the Mk 1 or 2 Escort.
The world's moved on - it'll corner great, be great fun to drive, take the shopping, have a warranty, start more times than it won't, probably have a good stereo and it probably won't down fuel like a pair of Webers either - welcome to modern motoring.
JenkinsComp said:
A car that motorsport enthusiasts can buy and tune, knowing that the hardware they are buying is effectively a detuned version of the rally/race cars they see driven by their heroes. (The Corvette Z06 ticks these boxes, properly)
Barking up the wrong tree - it's not Ford, it's the WRC regs.In the past you had to produced homologation versions of the car - now, the rules mean you don't need to produce a 4WD car to go rallying.
Why would a company who lost $14bn last year want to produce anything other than a mainstream vehicle?
Podie - jsut looked at your cars - my fiance has the Fabia vRS too - cracking way to silly fuel economy! She wanted the blue, but it wasn't available in late '06 - but happy that we got the xenon's, heated seats and xenon options. (Sadly no leather - so it's got the special white interior designed to get me in trouble if I go anywhere near it in less than semiconductor clean room cleanliness)
franv8 said:
Ford is a mass producer of cars, only exception to this would be something like the GT40 (although as supercar production runs go, it's still one of the larger ones). Ford is there to make money too, especially right now when they're not exactly winning that fight either.
BMW and Mercedes do pretty well mass producing Rwd cars, as Ford used to until they canned the Granada. The Falcon from Australia could easily be sold here, as could the Mustang. There was even a Focus RWD Conversion kit available from Ford Racing in the USA, enabling a 5 litre V8 transplant.
franv8 said:
If you go back to the roots of anything RS in Fords historical catalogue, then you'll find every one, from teh Escort RS's, Capri 3100's etc. were all very close to the other models in the range, I don't belive there has been any special dispensation to produce anything driving the other pair or more pairs of wheels than the standard range (exception I think is the, I think, Mk V? RS2000 Escort and building on this the Cosworth Escort, but then they did have the 4X4 Sierra floorpan to stick the Escort body on).
You're right that earlier RS Fords were very similar to the regular models, but then again so were the race versions. Nowadays, Ford build us a FWD Focus RS, but race a 4WD. The race stuff is way too far removed from the road cars, which threatens to create a disconnect, and kind of makes the argument that development from race cars drips down to road cars less meaningful.
franv8 said:
They're not going to sell enough RWD RS's to cover the costs over the thousands they'll sell anyway, it wouldn't be quick enough over the ST. I think what you're asking for is more like the modern equivalent of the Gartrac Escorts.
Gartrac Escorts, yeah I wish!!! :-) They were awesome weren't they?franv8 said:
Knocking FWD is also a bit extreme. Sometime ago someone said there was a limit around 200 Hp through the front wheels, yes it can get scary above this (original Focus RS had a few semi clever things along side some bodges to manage this, like low boost etc.), but it is done a lot today and tuned up cars running 300 hp don't seem to be the ditch seeking missiles they once might have been. FWD frees up cabin space, and can be used to good effect to allow the designers some freedom in packaging. And there are some brilliantly handling, and entertaining to drive FWD motors out there. I did used to subscribe to 'anything FWD is for girls' but have since found this is an old fashioned view, there is plenty of FWD things out there that can mix it with RWD and FWD.
I never mentioned anything about being a limit with FWD, or it not being useful. Indeed, the original Mini was a fantastically packaged car, while FWD Drag racing cars have run 6 second passes at over 200mph, with quite a lot more than 300bhp! GMs FWD Ecotec powered Bonneville Racers have reached tremendous speeds and set records with around 1000bhp. I just wish the Focus RS could be 4WD or at least RWD. Or indeed the whole Focus range! I guess that they felt the cost of developing the RevoKnuckle was OK to spread across however many RSs they sell, but transplanting the same basic drivetrain that Malcolm Wilson has on the shelf wasn't. Shame, even if the FWD end result is OK for the majority who don't care about these things. franv8 said:
Also, with the packaging of the Focus, how would you propose to get anywhere a decent front/rear weight distribution? Move the dashboard right back (which you'd probably need to do to get the engine in longitudinally, that's before we mention any underbonnet clearances to suit pedestrian crash protection regs)? It just ends up seeming too much trouble to please a few that feel it should be the spiritual successor to the Mk 1 or 2 Escort.
Rather like the R26R Megane, if you removed the rear seats and filled the car with a cage you could quite easily move the engine and dash back. I'd welcome a proper design feature in an RS like engine set back and RWD, than FWD for instance. You'd know they'd thought about weight distribution and done something about it. As it is, the car is nose heavy. Sadly, you are right about it being too much trouble nowadays with regs etc. franv8 said:
The world's moved on - it'll corner great, be great fun to drive, take the shopping, have a warranty, start more times than it won't, probably have a good stereo and it probably won't down fuel like a pair of Webers either - welcome to modern motoring.
Agreed...though I certainly won't be chopping in the Z06 for an RS. It averages 24mpg for a start, 31 or more on the motorway!
Hooray for fuel injection!
JenkinsComp said:
BMW and Mercedes do pretty well mass producing Rwd cars, as Ford used to until they canned the Granada.
The Falcon from Australia could easily be sold here, as could the Mustang. There was even a Focus RWD Conversion kit available from Ford Racing in the USA, enabling a 5 litre V8 transplant.
The Granada was awful. The Falcon from Australia could easily be sold here, as could the Mustang. There was even a Focus RWD Conversion kit available from Ford Racing in the USA, enabling a 5 litre V8 transplant.
Have a guess at how many RWD Focus kits were sold....
JenkinsComp said:
You're right that earlier RS Fords were very similar to the regular models, but then again so were the race versions.
Nowadays, Ford build us a FWD Focus RS, but race a 4WD. The race stuff is way too far removed from the road cars, which threatens to create a disconnect, and kind of makes the argument that development from race cars drips down to road cars less meaningful.
As I stated before - the regs have changed. THAT is the primary cause.Nowadays, Ford build us a FWD Focus RS, but race a 4WD. The race stuff is way too far removed from the road cars, which threatens to create a disconnect, and kind of makes the argument that development from race cars drips down to road cars less meaningful.
JenkinsComp said:
I just wish the Focus RS could be 4WD or at least RWD. Or indeed the whole Focus range! I guess that they felt the cost of developing the RevoKnuckle was OK to spread across however many RSs they sell, but transplanting the same basic drivetrain that Malcolm Wilson has on the shelf wasn't. Shame, even if the FWD end result is OK for the majority who don't care about these things.
So little of the WRC cars is carried over from the road cars it's laughable. The transmission alone costs more than a Focus RS!What makes you think that RWD and 4WD weren't reviewed and dismissed...?
franv8 said:
Podie - jsut looked at your cars - my fiance has the Fabia vRS too - cracking way to silly fuel economy! She wanted the blue, but it wasn't available in late '06 - but happy that we got the xenon's, heated seats and xenon options. (Sadly no leather - so it's got the special white interior designed to get me in trouble if I go anywhere near it in less than semiconductor clean room cleanliness)
Fabia has been great. LE came in blue with leather. We're down on the xenons but had heated seats retro fitted.Think the missus has recorded 74mpg on the M1 from Northants to Derby...!!
JenkinsComp said:
Podie said:
Why would a company who lost $14bn last year want to produce anything other than a mainstream vehicle?
Well they do make the Mustang...Podie said:
JenkinsComp said:
Podie said:
Why would a company who lost $14bn last year want to produce anything other than a mainstream vehicle?
Well they do make the Mustang...JenkinsComp said:
Podie said:
JenkinsComp said:
Podie said:
Why would a company who lost $14bn last year want to produce anything other than a mainstream vehicle?
Well they do make the Mustang...
Nice to have a sensible discussion about the RS though... it'll only be time before the thread degenerates
Podie said:
As I stated before - the regs have changed. THAT is the primary cause.
So little of the WRC cars is carried over from the road cars it's laughable. The transmission alone costs more than a Focus RS!
What makes you think that RWD and 4WD weren't reviewed and dismissed...?
The WRC regs were developed to reflect what the manufacturers were currently building, rather than the other way around. So little of the WRC cars is carried over from the road cars it's laughable. The transmission alone costs more than a Focus RS!
What makes you think that RWD and 4WD weren't reviewed and dismissed...?
4WD must have been considered, maybe RWD, and both dismissed on grounds of cost. Shame, as I'd pay a premium for a factory Ford product like a RWD RS Focus, but I wouldn't buy a FWD RS at all. I guess that their marketing people probably don't care about people like me either.
It is telling of the current state of the WRC that in Autosport last week I saw that Malcolm Wilson and Miko Hirvonen are building a Mk2 Escort up from a bare shell, in which to go Historic Rallying. How come they are not satisied with their all singing all dancing Focus WRC, and feel the need to build a simple, quick RWD Escort? Colin McRae (RIP) built himself one to play in too I seem to remember. Too much technology?
Hmm, looking at the prices of performance these days (supper dirt cheap imho) - wouldn't anything for homologation have an exotic, out of place price tag these days?
Anorak mode selected - Podie, the vRS actually has a homologation role, it has bigger more protruding bumpers to give it more length, I think to allow it to be used in WRC classes (same rules apply - there will be a sum total of 2 parts that are common between road and WRC car... the WRC isn't diesle for a start!)
I think there was something about using the US Focus for the similar reasons, the bigger bumpers. MAY have been to suit aerodynamics, at a total guess, maybe regs said no wing could protrude beyond the extents of the car?
I managed 72.9 MPG doing a steady 65 from Blackburn to back down South, although now we're trying to work out why 50 mpg now seems a chore for it.
Anorak mode selected - Podie, the vRS actually has a homologation role, it has bigger more protruding bumpers to give it more length, I think to allow it to be used in WRC classes (same rules apply - there will be a sum total of 2 parts that are common between road and WRC car... the WRC isn't diesle for a start!)
I think there was something about using the US Focus for the similar reasons, the bigger bumpers. MAY have been to suit aerodynamics, at a total guess, maybe regs said no wing could protrude beyond the extents of the car?
I managed 72.9 MPG doing a steady 65 from Blackburn to back down South, although now we're trying to work out why 50 mpg now seems a chore for it.
I remember running a Ford Fiesta RS Turbo some years ago and compared to the Lotus Sunbeam which it replaced it handled appallingly. My daily driver now is an '06 Alfa Spider with the last of the Alfa 3.2 V6's up front with around 250 bhp through the front wheels. Apart from a Q2 Torsen diff it is bog standard and it handles at least as well (on the road) as my C5 ZO6, well round corners anyway. Progress I guess. Still a rear wheel drive man for serious driving though. 
franv8 said:
Hmm, looking at the prices of performance these days (supper dirt cheap imho) - wouldn't anything for homologation have an exotic, out of place price tag these days?
Anorak mode selected - Podie, the vRS actually has a homologation role, it has bigger more protruding bumpers to give it more length, I think to allow it to be used in WRC classes (same rules apply - there will be a sum total of 2 parts that are common between road and WRC car... the WRC isn't diesle for a start!)
I think there was something about using the US Focus for the similar reasons, the bigger bumpers. MAY have been to suit aerodynamics, at a total guess, maybe regs said no wing could protrude beyond the extents of the car?
I managed 72.9 MPG doing a steady 65 from Blackburn to back down South, although now we're trying to work out why 50 mpg now seems a chore for it.
Yes, manufacturers use it to meet rules where applicable.Anorak mode selected - Podie, the vRS actually has a homologation role, it has bigger more protruding bumpers to give it more length, I think to allow it to be used in WRC classes (same rules apply - there will be a sum total of 2 parts that are common between road and WRC car... the WRC isn't diesle for a start!)
I think there was something about using the US Focus for the similar reasons, the bigger bumpers. MAY have been to suit aerodynamics, at a total guess, maybe regs said no wing could protrude beyond the extents of the car?
I managed 72.9 MPG doing a steady 65 from Blackburn to back down South, although now we're trying to work out why 50 mpg now seems a chore for it.
Skoda did it with the vRS, Peugeot with the 206, and yes, Ford used the US spec Focus bumper to meet the minimum length requirements.
However, if they don't need to spend money on a 4x4 drivetrain and appropriate tooling - why would you? Relatively speaking, bumpers are cheap.
Agree with that, and I think turbos and 4X4's aren't the only answer for a road car, in fact, going back to the original point of this, it was about making a car with the engaging character of RWD, I've always felt that 4X4's and turbos actually blunted the 'real' driving experience to some extent, yes they will be quicker in many situations, but always carry a bit more weight than a 2WD car, and have less response than an NA equipped car, possibly also less manners if laggy.
10 years ago there was a huge gap in performance between everything else and the 4X4 turbo option, now I think there are plenty of contenders to pick up the challenge of some of the closer road going rally-esque cars, like the Imprezza and the Evos.
10 years ago there was a huge gap in performance between everything else and the 4X4 turbo option, now I think there are plenty of contenders to pick up the challenge of some of the closer road going rally-esque cars, like the Imprezza and the Evos.
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