Gettle[gives Senate the]finger
Discussion
Here's a theory - the strength of the UAW and ability to keep their wages where they are has hurt GM's profitability against the import market (to the US)?
Hasn't a significant issue to GM (and perhaps Ford as well) been covering costs of commitments they made a long time ago to healthcare of previous employees and their families? Noble idea, but perhaps a promise too far?
Hasn't a significant issue to GM (and perhaps Ford as well) been covering costs of commitments they made a long time ago to healthcare of previous employees and their families? Noble idea, but perhaps a promise too far?
Living the dream! I've been staggered by the lack of research & development in their home grown product, while their European satellites have looked to the future! Ford's F150 & Mustang are straight from the 60's, so very profitable, but perhaps necessary because of labour/pension costs etc?
No wonder the Japanese can march in and offer cheaper, better, more economical alternatives.
I remember standing underneath a ramp,at Michigan Proving Ground,with the new Mustang on top, and asking the nice man in white overalls; "why have you re-engineered it to take independent rear suspension with coilovers, but stuck a live axle back in"? He answered; "the American public ain't ready for it"! I thought, maybe they've just got a warehouse full of these axles somewhere, and they need to use them up!
I worry that a bailout is just delaying the pain,because there is no market. When they inevitably merge, or go to the wall, it will be a disaster, swallowing up public money.
No wonder the Japanese can march in and offer cheaper, better, more economical alternatives.
I remember standing underneath a ramp,at Michigan Proving Ground,with the new Mustang on top, and asking the nice man in white overalls; "why have you re-engineered it to take independent rear suspension with coilovers, but stuck a live axle back in"? He answered; "the American public ain't ready for it"! I thought, maybe they've just got a warehouse full of these axles somewhere, and they need to use them up!
I worry that a bailout is just delaying the pain,because there is no market. When they inevitably merge, or go to the wall, it will be a disaster, swallowing up public money.
I do think it's a little dangerous saying things like 'there is no market' or 'they just can't sell any cars any more' and so on. As a reminder GM sold 9,369,524 cars worldwide in 2007 so it's not as if they've only sold 10 in 2008. We're talking about right-sizing a company and its infra-structure to the market. The UAW need to realize that the can hold on to their pay structures if they wish but the result will be catastrophic. Lose a few to save the majority.
Fair comment Mitch, i was referring to a market for the dinosaur cars that they have stuck to producing in the States for home consumption! We all know that GM can get it right at home, i.e Corvette! But, for the everyday, bread & butter cars, they've got to look to their European products now, surely?
British Motorcycle Industry anyone ?
(albeit on a much grander scale)
Commerce abhors a vacuum and Americans DON'T WALK so the rest of the worlds' car makers will take up the slack.
The Americans will regroup and come back a lot leaner and have a much less insular attitude,thats when the rest of the world should watch out !
I'm not American nor really biased towards them,but they are ultimately winners,whatever the cost.
I think Corvette may get sold off but it will survive,maybe because of this.
(albeit on a much grander scale)
Commerce abhors a vacuum and Americans DON'T WALK so the rest of the worlds' car makers will take up the slack.
The Americans will regroup and come back a lot leaner and have a much less insular attitude,thats when the rest of the world should watch out !
I'm not American nor really biased towards them,but they are ultimately winners,whatever the cost.
I think Corvette may get sold off but it will survive,maybe because of this.
True!! Triumph came back with a vengeance, & i believe Norton are going to resurface.
Maybe when finance becomes available to buy cars again, the public might be a bit more choosy, thus dictating a direction for certain manufacturers.
Not being a dealer, maybe i look at it too naively! Just so long as Corvette keep going, there'll still be GT1 racing......
Maybe when finance becomes available to buy cars again, the public might be a bit more choosy, thus dictating a direction for certain manufacturers.
Not being a dealer, maybe i look at it too naively! Just so long as Corvette keep going, there'll still be GT1 racing......
As David says Corvette Racing are moving to GT2 after the 24 Hours de Mans in 2009.
As far as building antiquated dinosaurs, I don't think that paints a correct picture either. It's very easy for us to assume that the only bits of the U.S. worth talking about are the East and West Coasts which are, to some degree, recognisable to Europeans, however that doesn't even accomodate a quarter of the U.S. population. Fundamentally they are, by majority, a country of farmers and I don't care what anybody says they won't be seen dead driving Corsas. Big trucks and SUVs will for the forseeable future have a home in the U.S., but in the current economy your thrifty farmers aren't buying. The point is that GM, Ford et al should not be so dependent on sales of these vehicles, in fact a balanced portfolio shouldn't leave them exposed to any particular market segment.
I don't know of any motor manufacturers that are particularly thriving at the moment, so it can't just the Americans that are making all the mistakes.
GM has already taken its European product to the U.S. and badged it Saturn. It's failed miserably because they're just not interested. Don't be surprised if a restructure of GM leaves only Chevrolet and Cadillac in the U.S.
As far as building antiquated dinosaurs, I don't think that paints a correct picture either. It's very easy for us to assume that the only bits of the U.S. worth talking about are the East and West Coasts which are, to some degree, recognisable to Europeans, however that doesn't even accomodate a quarter of the U.S. population. Fundamentally they are, by majority, a country of farmers and I don't care what anybody says they won't be seen dead driving Corsas. Big trucks and SUVs will for the forseeable future have a home in the U.S., but in the current economy your thrifty farmers aren't buying. The point is that GM, Ford et al should not be so dependent on sales of these vehicles, in fact a balanced portfolio shouldn't leave them exposed to any particular market segment.
I don't know of any motor manufacturers that are particularly thriving at the moment, so it can't just the Americans that are making all the mistakes.
GM has already taken its European product to the U.S. and badged it Saturn. It's failed miserably because they're just not interested. Don't be surprised if a restructure of GM leaves only Chevrolet and Cadillac in the U.S.
Edited by mitch_ on Sunday 14th December 22:49
One of the fundamental problems is worldwide there is over production in the new vehicle market and all companies need to scale back production. The problem for GM is they cannot lay off staff and scale back production easily and as Mitch said in these times Americans are not buying new cars.
After last nights Top Gear perhaps hydrogen powered cars are the way to go!
After last nights Top Gear perhaps hydrogen powered cars are the way to go!
Um, I think all hydrogen does is give a storage method for energy produced elsewhere, perhaps best to think of hydrogen as 'more efficient battery technology' I'm guessing the business end will be a combination of renewables (hydropower, windpower, biomass) with a (fair) bit of nuclear and fossil fuel power.
Alas I do think TG skimmed over it with 2 minutes on it, and left most people thinking it'd fix everything overnight.
Alas I do think TG skimmed over it with 2 minutes on it, and left most people thinking it'd fix everything overnight.
Liquid hydrogen production would be extremely expensive and currently it is less fuel efficient than burning fossil fuel. However I have seen working hydrogen fuel cells which are powered by electricity for an existing car engine and therefore make the car about 10-20% more fuel efficient and run on distilled water!
Here's some cars with on-board hydrogen producing power stations.... from seawater etc.
Not the prettiest, but it works.
http://www.celsias.com/article/japanese-company-un...
.... and from our corvette loving celebs on top gear, a quirky GM model
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AgWTU54SJbs
Not the prettiest, but it works.
http://www.celsias.com/article/japanese-company-un...
.... and from our corvette loving celebs on top gear, a quirky GM model
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AgWTU54SJbs
You need to put energy in to seperate the hydrogen and the oxygen, otherwise you have broken one of the golden rules and managed to make, effectively, a perpetual motion machine:
Water >> magics to >> hydrogen + oxygen >>create electricity in fuel cell (or) burn in hydrogen internal combustion engine >> useful work out + water
You start with water and finish with water - so no change in entropy or energy level, so where does the energy come from?
Sorry - bit of an anorak on these subjects - I read the comments too, whilst one theory is that those of us who are cynics are so because we were taught the old fashioned way, the otehr one of us 'just not embracing new thigns' is a bit too far to be believed. Unless I can add 30 hp to my car witht he addition of an eBay resistor...
Water >> magics to >> hydrogen + oxygen >>create electricity in fuel cell (or) burn in hydrogen internal combustion engine >> useful work out + water
You start with water and finish with water - so no change in entropy or energy level, so where does the energy come from?
Sorry - bit of an anorak on these subjects - I read the comments too, whilst one theory is that those of us who are cynics are so because we were taught the old fashioned way, the otehr one of us 'just not embracing new thigns' is a bit too far to be believed. Unless I can add 30 hp to my car witht he addition of an eBay resistor...
franv8 said:
You need to put energy in to seperate the hydrogen and the oxygen, otherwise you have broken one of the golden rules and managed to make, effectively, a perpetual motion machine:
Water >> magics to >> hydrogen + oxygen >>create electricity in fuel cell (or) burn in hydrogen internal combustion engine >> useful work out + water
You start with water and finish with water - so no change in entropy or energy level, so where does the energy come from?
Sorry - bit of an anorak on these subjects - I read the comments too, whilst one theory is that those of us who are cynics are so because we were taught the old fashioned way, the otehr one of us 'just not embracing new thigns' is a bit too far to be believed. Unless I can add 30 hp to my car witht he addition of an eBay resistor...
[confused]errr, right, yeah, now then, umm. I am not an anorak here[/confused]Water >> magics to >> hydrogen + oxygen >>create electricity in fuel cell (or) burn in hydrogen internal combustion engine >> useful work out + water
You start with water and finish with water - so no change in entropy or energy level, so where does the energy come from?
Sorry - bit of an anorak on these subjects - I read the comments too, whilst one theory is that those of us who are cynics are so because we were taught the old fashioned way, the otehr one of us 'just not embracing new thigns' is a bit too far to be believed. Unless I can add 30 hp to my car witht he addition of an eBay resistor...
I just posted the links as I was sure that I saw the Top Gear article when it was shown on TV, and also found the little Japanese thingy.
So, over to your theatre of expertise (not mine) I am guessing that perpetual motion means running in perpetuity with the original energy source only, plus anything that can be salvaged form the energy expended in doing so. That would appear to be very different to what the little Japanese car offers.
"The company says that this is made possible by a technology called ‘membrane electrode assembly (or MEA), which contains a material that is capable of breaking down water into hydrogen and oxygen through a chemical reaction.". So this is an outside factor producing a source capable of propelling the vehicle - hydrogen.
The emission water keeps dribbling out of the back of the exhaust, so at some stage, it will run out of gas.... or water in this case. So it is far from perpetual motion, as you have to keep throwing water into the tank.
I am no expert, but this does not seem to be a solution to perpetual motion as one has to keep adding water to the tank. It just seems to use a chemical reaction to split the components of the water, of which the Hydrogen component is fed into a tank to run the car. Keep adding energy / fuel (water) and it keeps going, very much like out petrol engined car of today, but with an on-board oil refinery.
I like the concept if it is not a wind-up.
Gassing Station | Corvettes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff