613 hp without methanol
Discussion
I spent a pleasent afternoon with fellow Vetteheads, Pete and Paul at Brooklands College playing on their dyno.
This was the first opportunity to see what the pro-charger could do along with the Methanol injection. The previous unblown figures were showing around 433 hp- that was with the long tube headers and vararam system.
The Brooklands set up is very impressive with loads of state of the art kit there, plus some extremely knowledgable lecturers.
I left the methanol system on for the first full run and the engine pulled 532.2. not bad - about 32% improvement. However there was a very strong smell of unburnt methanol and fuel.
The second run was with the meths switched off. Wow, what a difference 613.1 hp !! with only 5 lbs of boost. Amazed, if slightly confused, I switch the meths back on and pulled "only" 532.2.
A look at the a/f ratio told the story. The car was overfueling and this was being excerbated by the meths which injects close to WOT.
The non meths run allowed the management system to lean the mixture and allow the engine to burn more fuel.
Although I was running a supercharger tune I've never altered it to suit the meths.
It was suggested to me that if I could lock off the blower dump valve for a short period(less than 10 seconds) and then inject the meths, that 613 hp could be exceeded. How long my pistons or transmission would last is a different question- I can't get the existing power on the road so why would I need more horsepower ? um, don't answer that.
Here's the preliminary chart.
This was the first opportunity to see what the pro-charger could do along with the Methanol injection. The previous unblown figures were showing around 433 hp- that was with the long tube headers and vararam system.
The Brooklands set up is very impressive with loads of state of the art kit there, plus some extremely knowledgable lecturers.
I left the methanol system on for the first full run and the engine pulled 532.2. not bad - about 32% improvement. However there was a very strong smell of unburnt methanol and fuel.
The second run was with the meths switched off. Wow, what a difference 613.1 hp !! with only 5 lbs of boost. Amazed, if slightly confused, I switch the meths back on and pulled "only" 532.2.
A look at the a/f ratio told the story. The car was overfueling and this was being excerbated by the meths which injects close to WOT.
The non meths run allowed the management system to lean the mixture and allow the engine to burn more fuel.
Although I was running a supercharger tune I've never altered it to suit the meths.
It was suggested to me that if I could lock off the blower dump valve for a short period(less than 10 seconds) and then inject the meths, that 613 hp could be exceeded. How long my pistons or transmission would last is a different question- I can't get the existing power on the road so why would I need more horsepower ? um, don't answer that.
Here's the preliminary chart.
michaelZ16 said:
How long my pistons or transmission would last is a different question- I can't get the existing power on the road so why would I need more horsepower ? um, don't answer that.
"In March 1923, in an interview with The New York Times, British mountaineer George Leigh Mallory was asked why he wanted to climb Mount Everest, and replied, 'Because it's there'....."Unfortunately poor old George died on Everest and used to think that using oxygen was "unsporting". Which has considerable relevance here (along with the vague analogy with forced air induction)as many of us push against the boundaries for no other reason than we don't like being constrained. Whilst melting a few pistons is hardly a direct comparison with losing your life on a mountain, the need for going one step further is a what makes us human. Something that our government have yet to realise and, if they do, will try to tax or ban.
This reads as if you are blaming the methanol for reducing power, which is not the case.
Its clearly down to the fact it is incorrectly tuned for the methanol. You also ignore the potential charge air tepmerature reduction the methanol gives, which helps add a large chunk of safety.
Retune fuel and ignition, even reduce the amount of methanol injected to make this easier, and not only will there be the potential for the same, or more power, but it will be far safer in terms of combustion temps, end resistance to detonation.
If you want to leave fuelling and timing where they are, then drastically reduce the amount of meth injected. It shouldnt cost any power worth talking about, but it will reduce charge air temps, and add safety.
Pure meth works best, although some would say 50/50, or other mixes of water/meth. I'd tend to favour as much meth as possible though in the mix...if the pump etc can handle it.
Its clearly down to the fact it is incorrectly tuned for the methanol. You also ignore the potential charge air tepmerature reduction the methanol gives, which helps add a large chunk of safety.
Retune fuel and ignition, even reduce the amount of methanol injected to make this easier, and not only will there be the potential for the same, or more power, but it will be far safer in terms of combustion temps, end resistance to detonation.
If you want to leave fuelling and timing where they are, then drastically reduce the amount of meth injected. It shouldnt cost any power worth talking about, but it will reduce charge air temps, and add safety.
Pure meth works best, although some would say 50/50, or other mixes of water/meth. I'd tend to favour as much meth as possible though in the mix...if the pump etc can handle it.
stevieturbo said:
This reads as if you are blaming the methanol for reducing power, which is not the case.
Its clearly down to the fact it is incorrectly tuned for the methanol. You also ignore the potential charge air tepmerature reduction the methanol gives, which helps add a large chunk of safety.
Retune fuel and ignition, even reduce the amount of methanol injected to make this easier, and not only will there be the potential for the same, or more power, but it will be far safer in terms of combustion temps, end resistance to detonation.
If you want to leave fuelling and timing where they are, then drastically reduce the amount of meth injected. It shouldnt cost any power worth talking about, but it will reduce charge air temps, and add safety.
Pure meth works best, although some would say 50/50, or other mixes of water/meth. I'd tend to favour as much meth as possible though in the mix...if the pump etc can handle it.
Hi Michael,Its clearly down to the fact it is incorrectly tuned for the methanol. You also ignore the potential charge air tepmerature reduction the methanol gives, which helps add a large chunk of safety.
Retune fuel and ignition, even reduce the amount of methanol injected to make this easier, and not only will there be the potential for the same, or more power, but it will be far safer in terms of combustion temps, end resistance to detonation.
If you want to leave fuelling and timing where they are, then drastically reduce the amount of meth injected. It shouldnt cost any power worth talking about, but it will reduce charge air temps, and add safety.
Pure meth works best, although some would say 50/50, or other mixes of water/meth. I'd tend to favour as much meth as possible though in the mix...if the pump etc can handle it.
Agree with Stevie T I had my car tuned with the Water / Meth and it added about 40 BHP.....but I am using the Motec M800 ECU so assuming you are still using the stock ECU you may have tuning issues especially if the water / meth injector is after the MAF sensor. Good numbers by the way!
Stevie, I agree with you. As I said in my post the tune was not designed for methanol injection - which was why when it was switched off the numbers were good. The injector is in front of the MAF sensor which is why I think it was fooling the ECU into increasing the fuel injected. Once I've got the full electronic data from the dyno I'll get the programme altered to allow for the injection and do more fine tuning back on the dyno.
After that it's just a matter of upping the boost, new clutch, new dif, new pistons, cam, crank.........
After that it's just a matter of upping the boost, new clutch, new dif, new pistons, cam, crank.........
vetteheadracer said:
Hi Michael,
Agree with Stevie T I had my car tuned with the Water / Meth and it added about 40 BHP.....but I am using the Motec M800 ECU so assuming you are still using the stock ECU you may have tuning issues especially if the water / meth injector is after the MAF sensor. Good numbers by the way!
What numbers are you getting out of your beast nowadays anyway Nigel? I always remember reading that the TT setup wasn't quite working 100% and wondering what it would produce when sorted.Agree with Stevie T I had my car tuned with the Water / Meth and it added about 40 BHP.....but I am using the Motec M800 ECU so assuming you are still using the stock ECU you may have tuning issues especially if the water / meth injector is after the MAF sensor. Good numbers by the way!
Cheers,
Chris
B15TT0 said:
vetteheadracer said:
Hi Michael,
Agree with Stevie T I had my car tuned with the Water / Meth and it added about 40 BHP.....but I am using the Motec M800 ECU so assuming you are still using the stock ECU you may have tuning issues especially if the water / meth injector is after the MAF sensor. Good numbers by the way!
What numbers are you getting out of your beast nowadays anyway Nigel? I always remember reading that the TT setup wasn't quite working 100% and wondering what it would produce when sorted.Agree with Stevie T I had my car tuned with the Water / Meth and it added about 40 BHP.....but I am using the Motec M800 ECU so assuming you are still using the stock ECU you may have tuning issues especially if the water / meth injector is after the MAF sensor. Good numbers by the way!
Cheers,
Chris
Had it dyno'd before and after fitting the water / meth kit last year and remember it added 40 BHP, just can't remember what the final results were!
Think it was about 650 BHP but that is with it still running at 8lbs boost. The guys at Raceshack in Tewkesbury got the Twin Turbo / Motec M800 tuning sorted a couple of years ago, since then it has just been having it re-tuned with the water / meth and other mods. Mine is easier to tune than a standard Vette as I have the Motec. vetteheadracer said:
Had it dyno'd before and after fitting the water / meth kit last year and remember it added 40 BHP, just can't remember what the final results were! Think it was about 650 BHP but that is with it still running at 8lbs boost. The guys at Raceshack in Tewkesbury got the Twin Turbo / Motec M800 tuning sorted a couple of years ago, since then it has just been having it re-tuned with the water / meth and other mods. Mine is easier to tune than a standard Vette as I have the Motec.
Awesome, thanks for letting me know. Think it was about 650 BHP but that is with it still running at 8lbs boost. The guys at Raceshack in Tewkesbury got the Twin Turbo / Motec M800 tuning sorted a couple of years ago, since then it has just been having it re-tuned with the water / meth and other mods. Mine is easier to tune than a standard Vette as I have the Motec. Have you published a feature on your Vette with more details about it all anywhere? I'd love to be able to read more about it, understand the performance figures it is now doing, and follow the tweaks and changes it continues to undergo.
Cheers,
Chris
B15TT0 said:
vetteheadracer said:
Had it dyno'd before and after fitting the water / meth kit last year and remember it added 40 BHP, just can't remember what the final results were! Think it was about 650 BHP but that is with it still running at 8lbs boost. The guys at Raceshack in Tewkesbury got the Twin Turbo / Motec M800 tuning sorted a couple of years ago, since then it has just been having it re-tuned with the water / meth and other mods. Mine is easier to tune than a standard Vette as I have the Motec.
Awesome, thanks for letting me know. Think it was about 650 BHP but that is with it still running at 8lbs boost. The guys at Raceshack in Tewkesbury got the Twin Turbo / Motec M800 tuning sorted a couple of years ago, since then it has just been having it re-tuned with the water / meth and other mods. Mine is easier to tune than a standard Vette as I have the Motec. Have you published a feature on your Vette with more details about it all anywhere? I'd love to be able to read more about it, understand the performance figures it is now doing, and follow the tweaks and changes it continues to undergo.
Cheers,
Chris
I did a couple of articles for the club magazine last year covering going from the stock 2003 C5 Z06 to the twin turbo setup. I ought to do another piece as I have added / am adding some new bits.
B15TT0 said:
vetteheadracer said:
Had it dyno'd before and after fitting the water / meth kit last year and remember it added 40 BHP, just can't remember what the final results were! Think it was about 650 BHP but that is with it still running at 8lbs boost. The guys at Raceshack in Tewkesbury got the Twin Turbo / Motec M800 tuning sorted a couple of years ago, since then it has just been having it re-tuned with the water / meth and other mods. Mine is easier to tune than a standard Vette as I have the Motec.
Awesome, thanks for letting me know. Think it was about 650 BHP but that is with it still running at 8lbs boost. The guys at Raceshack in Tewkesbury got the Twin Turbo / Motec M800 tuning sorted a couple of years ago, since then it has just been having it re-tuned with the water / meth and other mods. Mine is easier to tune than a standard Vette as I have the Motec. Have you published a feature on your Vette with more details about it all anywhere? I'd love to be able to read more about it, understand the performance figures it is now doing, and follow the tweaks and changes it continues to undergo.
Cheers,
Chris
I was considering writing a further article regarding the work I have done on my car. I did two last year which were published in the club magazine Vette News.
Edited by vetteheadracer on Tuesday 4th March 14:49
vetteheadracer said:
I was considering writing a further article regarding the work I have done on my car. I did two last year which were published in the club magazine Vette News.
You definitely should do more. Are the ones from last year available online anywhere?Edited by vetteheadracer on Tuesday 4th March 14:49
Chris
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