PSV/Coach driver hours rules

[mjb1]

My son is going on a school trip in a few weeks, end of year fun trips that the school arrange through a tour operator. Just had the finalised itinerary through and it's changed somewhat from what was originally stated when son chose which trip to go on. The trip is to Alton Towers and Thorpe Park, spread across 3 days with one day at each park. We've now been told that they'll have to leave Alton Towers at 2pm because of the driver's hours regulations. Which seems pathetic to only get half a day there, given the cost of the trip is nearly £500 per child. And also leave Thorpe Park at 4pm (2hrs before closing). If they need a second driver to keep within the rules then I think that's what they should be doing. But I'm a bit surprised that a single driver isn't able to fit within driving rules given the journeys are spread over three days?

I've tried to have a read of the driving times rules, but can't fully get my head around it, and why this itinerary is necessary:

Mon day time drive to Alton Towers - 9am start, 275 miles, estimated arrival at Alton Towers hotel 4pm.
Tues Depart Alton Towers - 2pm, 160 miles to hotel near Thorpe Park.
Weds 10am - approx 5 miles from hotel to Thorpe Park.
Weds 4pm - depart Thorpe Park to drive home, 225 miles, 4.5hrs estimated.

So that's about 14 hours driving spread across 3 days/60 hour window. Are the driving hours regulations really that tight?

[mjb1]

119 said:

They can drive 9 hours per day so does seem a bit odd.

Unless of course it is actual overall time they are more concerned about.

Yes, I'd seen the 9 hours per day bit, but then they're allowed to do 10 hours 2 days a week. And also daily rest of 11 hours in any 24hr period, which can be reduced to 9 hours a couple of times per week. And I can't see how the itinerary would infringe on those rules, even if they stayed at both parks til closing time?

I suspect it's just been badly organised, but want to be sure of the regs before I complain. School have just shrugged it off saying it's nothing to do with them, said they put it out to a coach tour operator to organise it all. The original itinerary said they'd be driving to Alton Towers Monday morning for the day there (presumably a very early start), and then going to Thorpe Park on the Tuesday, with Weds just the drive home. Which seemed a much better plan. No explanation of why they changed it, but if they'd told us the final itinerary at the point of booking I'd never have agreed for son to go on the trip.

[mjb1]

LivLL said:

£500 each?

Yes, per child. Well the price to the coach/tour company is actually £450, but we were originally told this was inclusive of all meals. But now we've been told that it doesn't include lunches, so the kids will have to take extra cash to buy themselves lunch on all 3 days - Monday at motorway services, Tues and Weds within the theme parks. Teacher said £5 should cover lunch at Alton Towers! Now I've not been there myself in 20 years but I'm pretty sure you couldn't get lunch for £5 then, nevermind at current prices. So I'm expecting an extra £15 a day for lunch and drinks.

the-norseman said:

As above the driver wont start driving at 9am, probably 7am, including walk around checks.

Without looking do they have to do a 45 min break after 4.5 hours like HGV?

Yes, I realised after I posted that the driver will be doing more than just the actual journeys with the kids on. Still not sure it's enough to impede their hours though? I believe they do have to have 45 minute break for every 4.5hrs driving. Which should be fine as I expect there will be 45 minutes parked up waiting for the kids to board initially at the school meet, and they'll be stopping for lunch on the way. Pretty sure all the passengers will want to stretch their legs after 4.5 hours seated too.

[mjb1]

E-bmw said:

You seem to be very quick to presume here that the driver wants to work what is a very long & stressful day and is allowed to by his company.

Don't forget he is human and may not feel the need/want to do that just because you want a bit more time at a theme park.

No, I'm not blaming the driver, pretty sure he's not drawn up the itinerary himself either. All I know is that I feel we've paid top dollar for a trip and expected them to organise it for the best customer experience. Half a day at Alton Towers is frankly a waste of a trip. If that means they need to go back to the originally published itinerary or take a second driver, then that's what they should be doing, there should be plenty of profit margin for it. They've changed it from what was advertised to something that doesn't really work, and the only reason given so far has been the driver's hours. I'm trying to ascertain whether that's the real reason, so that I can formulate my complaint (to the tour company, not the coach driver) factually.

[mjb1]

Drumroll said:

Don't forget the coach driver will likely be working full time so you would need to know his driving pattern for 21 days to see what he could do on "your" trip.
He/she may need to fuel up whilst the kids are at Alton Park. It all adds to his driving time.

They could of course get a second driver, but someone would have have to pay for it. But you already think £500 is to much.

I for one would feel a lot happier, if I felt my child's coach driver wasn't pushing his driving hours just so my kid could have a couple of hours extra at an amusement park

Edited by Drumroll on Monday 1st July 16:41

I was ok with the price when it was advertised as two full days of theme parks. But they've changed the itinerary and now it's half a day and 3/4 of a day. I get that the transport, accommodation etc are essential ancillary costs to factor in, but the whole point of the trip is to visit the theme parks. Now it feels like what they're getting is almost a whistle stop glimpse of the theme parks for a lot of travelling and accommodation expense. Surely no one thinks that 4 hours at Alton Towers is good value?

There's 77 kids going on the trip, at £450 a head to the coach/tour operator. Assuming they've paid full retail price for everything (the park admissions, premier inn with evening meal and breakfast, and splash landings hotel), by my reckoning that would leave the coach company with about £15,000 to cover the transport costs, with the rest being their profit. However, I expect a tour operator is going to get a decent discount on park admissions and accommodation when they're booking for 80 people. So I suspect the coach company is getting at least £20,000 after the other expenses are taken. I do feel that it should be better organised for money they've taken.

Ultimately, I don't much care what the coach driver is doing for the rest of his 21 day pattern - that's for his employer to work out. If he needs rest days in between trips then that's just part of the overhead they should be factoring in. So far people have pointed out the extra things I wasn't aware of (part of my reason for asking), but no one appears to be saying that when taking those into account it would exceed the hours?

Anyway, it's now sounding like the driver's hours isn't actually the issue - the reason they need to leave alton towers at 2pm is to drive to the next hotel for the time that they've got the evening meal booked for. Again, if they'd stuck to the advertised itinerary the timings would have worked better. In fact they could even have had time for an extra day somewhere (a 2nd day at alton towers, or perhaps their water park).