RE: Driving Force
Tuesday 26th February 2002
Driving Force
New charity aims to rid streets of joyriders. More left-wing madness or a damn good plan?
Discussion
quote:
.....ten free driving lessons...
provided they do nor re-offend they will be given the vehicle when they have passed their tests and have tax and insurance
I'm 17 been to almost every motorshow since I was 5, never stolen a thing, stand up for old ladys on the bus and now have to pay £21/hour for driving lessons and can't get a car because of the £thousands insurance (Mainly because of the little bastards on my estate who steal/crash cars every night) and they rub my face in it like this!
Where's the justice?????
Sorry if my grammers rubbish and I sound like a little tory but I'm very angry
Copy of message i've just e-mailed them
>>>
Just read about your idea, sounds great fun, how many cars do i need to steel to qualify!!!!!
Is this really sending the correct message out to young people.
I cannot believe that people still think rewarding the lower end of the food chain for stealing will make them better people..
how about a really radical idea. Reward people that dont steel cars, setup these centres that help to recoverdumped cars and repair them for banger racing or driving on the road.
give them cheap / free lessons, and the lectures as well...
but if you steal a car or break into one or are even a passenger, put them in jail, take their driving licence off them dont reward them for goodness sake.
On a message board i saw some comments about the scheme,
one is from a 17 year old lad, who in his words
"I I've never stolen a thing, stand up for old ladys on the bus and now have to pay £21/hour for driving lessons and can't get a car because of the £thousands insurance "
this is the sort of person you should be rewarding, not the person causing the trouble and making his insurance so high.
That is the kind of scheme i would activly and possibly financialy be interested in backing
I await your comments with interest.
Graham Walden
<<<<
One thing though how about we do try to organise somthing for kids that dont steal...
where would i start to get the ball rolling...
G
p.s. rpguk hope you dont mind being quoted...
>> Edited by Graham on Tuesday 26th February 22:32
>> Edited by Graham on Thursday 28th February 11:12
>>>
Just read about your idea, sounds great fun, how many cars do i need to steel to qualify!!!!!
Is this really sending the correct message out to young people.
I cannot believe that people still think rewarding the lower end of the food chain for stealing will make them better people..
how about a really radical idea. Reward people that dont steel cars, setup these centres that help to recoverdumped cars and repair them for banger racing or driving on the road.
give them cheap / free lessons, and the lectures as well...
but if you steal a car or break into one or are even a passenger, put them in jail, take their driving licence off them dont reward them for goodness sake.
On a message board i saw some comments about the scheme,
one is from a 17 year old lad, who in his words
"I I've never stolen a thing, stand up for old ladys on the bus and now have to pay £21/hour for driving lessons and can't get a car because of the £thousands insurance "
this is the sort of person you should be rewarding, not the person causing the trouble and making his insurance so high.
That is the kind of scheme i would activly and possibly financialy be interested in backing
I await your comments with interest.
Graham Walden
<<<<
One thing though how about we do try to organise somthing for kids that dont steal...
where would i start to get the ball rolling...
G
p.s. rpguk hope you dont mind being quoted...
>> Edited by Graham on Tuesday 26th February 22:32
>> Edited by Graham on Thursday 28th February 11:12
Im a X car thief and even i can see the crazyness in this one.
Now retired and a lot older.
at lesed when they nick the next one the will be able to drive it a bit better.
But I can tell you from experince.
yes a lot of young kids crash because the can drive what they nick and cause a lot of damaged.
But a hell of a lot of crashs are caused by the police.
that tend to push them too far when chaseing them.
they will often get far too close and cause them to panic an go in to a red mist situation.
the police know this but still do it.
aso the ordanary panda cars will often give chase
and they have no or little more training than the any other driver on the road.
having said that a Traffic car will have had much more
tranning.
problem is to many of young cops enjoy a high speed chaseas much as the kids and dont have much more skill
than the kids there chaseing
as the risk of lose of life go`s up 100 fold an soon a an office desides to give chase
non traffic cars without advanced trained drivers
should be baned from all high speed driving/chasesun less the have been trained.
and this would stop many podistrans bing hit a year by pada cars.
Now retired and a lot older.
at lesed when they nick the next one the will be able to drive it a bit better.
But I can tell you from experince.
yes a lot of young kids crash because the can drive what they nick and cause a lot of damaged.
But a hell of a lot of crashs are caused by the police.
that tend to push them too far when chaseing them.
they will often get far too close and cause them to panic an go in to a red mist situation.
the police know this but still do it.
aso the ordanary panda cars will often give chase
and they have no or little more training than the any other driver on the road.
having said that a Traffic car will have had much more
tranning.
problem is to many of young cops enjoy a high speed chaseas much as the kids and dont have much more skill
than the kids there chaseing
as the risk of lose of life go`s up 100 fold an soon a an office desides to give chase
non traffic cars without advanced trained drivers
should be baned from all high speed driving/chasesun less the have been trained.
and this would stop many podistrans bing hit a year by pada cars.
Their reply, not a bad effort any comment ?
>>>>>
Dear Graham,
You've missed the point. So called punishment doesn't work all the time.
Also the scheme is open to non-offenders too. The idea is to prevent
offending by means of A) shock tactics...have you been to an autopsy of an
RTA victim?. To a talk from a parent of a TWOCer who has died at the wheel
of a car who has said to his parent and his mates plus other TWOCers that he
won't have an accident as he is a 'good driver'. been to a burns unit and
seen victims, both drivers, passengers and pedestrians.
Think about it......lock em up......they learn from others in the 'prison'
how to do other crimes or easier ways of breaking into a car etc.....they
then re-offend...doesn't help much does it?
So! lets think a minute...if we can slow TWOCers from re-offending we may
save a life!.......is it more important to just lock em up?
next.....if they get some incentive whereby they attain NVQs in a subject
area close to their hearts, a full driving license and a safe and reliable
vehicle which would otherwise have been scrapped which
from next April will cost a minimum of another £100 over and above what they
already pay (varies between £25 and £35 for disposal) They all of a sudden
become a much more attractive proposition to an employer.
A young man with a full driving license, a reliable car, and NVQs in
subjects they love.
The alternative is lock em up, when they come out they have a 'chip' on
their shoulder, no skills.....who's gonna employ them.
Think about it and decide what is better for society. Do you really wanna
keep paying out nearly £1000 a week to keep someone locked up?
The bottom line is do you address the problem and cause or slap em down and
pay out for the rest of your life(through taxes).......If that' the way you
wanna go fine... what will you say to the next person who says to you that
maybe, just maybe if you hadn't of thought that way maybe my daughter, son.
mother, father etc would still be alive.
I do understand how you feel but from my experience (some 53 years)
hammering people for their actions doesn't always solve the problem. It
often makes it worse.
Perhaps by looking at it from another direction it will become clear.
If someone goes out and shoplifts because they are short of money, or
doesn't pay something because of a shortage of money the way to address the
problem is not to fine them.......i.e. take money from them thereby
exacerbating the problem. they then are even shorter of money so they go out
and do it again to pay the fine.
Lat year Nottingham County Council spent £13 million on removing dumped cars
etc.....thats all in including, police costs, Fire and rescue service costs,
ambulance, doctors and nurses etc. The fire service have to send out two
crews as one crew has to watch the back of the other as they get stoned and
even have firebombs thrown at them whilst putting out fires.
When you lock these kids up it costs nearly a £1000 a week....... thats
costing you!
How many other crimes are ignored? cyclists break every road rule in the
book, go through lights. ride without lights, they use the roads free(i.e.
no insurance, no tax etc. yet if a pushbike ran over your throat you'd
probably die! we provide bike lanes.....yet don'y charge em for it......and
half the time they ride on the pavement. Horses weigh close to a ton, have
metal shoes, that rip up roads and unlike dogs they can shit massive piles
how they like and guess what..their owners aren't fined.....the list goes
on......I'm not saying they should be penalised I'm just pointing out that
they aren't. The law says dog owners must pick up their shit.......but how
often do they!
We all break the law in some way....yes some more than others....Now I'm not
in anyway religious but the bible says let him without sin cast the first
stone........who's right.....what is best..we can only do what we think is
best/right etc......Nuff said.....
In short, it isn't just for those caught stealing cars/joyriding it is for
all young people and the NVQ training is for any age. Mebbe help them get a
job, or if on low income maintain their cars themselves rather than pay £30
an hour or more to a garage.
So Graham, I could go on (and on and on zzzzzzzzzz..lol) but I won't. If you
are interested in knowing more please get back in touch, I would like to
hear from you.
For now, all the best
Tom
<<<<
>>>>>
Dear Graham,
You've missed the point. So called punishment doesn't work all the time.
Also the scheme is open to non-offenders too. The idea is to prevent
offending by means of A) shock tactics...have you been to an autopsy of an
RTA victim?. To a talk from a parent of a TWOCer who has died at the wheel
of a car who has said to his parent and his mates plus other TWOCers that he
won't have an accident as he is a 'good driver'. been to a burns unit and
seen victims, both drivers, passengers and pedestrians.
Think about it......lock em up......they learn from others in the 'prison'
how to do other crimes or easier ways of breaking into a car etc.....they
then re-offend...doesn't help much does it?
So! lets think a minute...if we can slow TWOCers from re-offending we may
save a life!.......is it more important to just lock em up?
next.....if they get some incentive whereby they attain NVQs in a subject
area close to their hearts, a full driving license and a safe and reliable
vehicle which would otherwise have been scrapped which
from next April will cost a minimum of another £100 over and above what they
already pay (varies between £25 and £35 for disposal) They all of a sudden
become a much more attractive proposition to an employer.
A young man with a full driving license, a reliable car, and NVQs in
subjects they love.
The alternative is lock em up, when they come out they have a 'chip' on
their shoulder, no skills.....who's gonna employ them.
Think about it and decide what is better for society. Do you really wanna
keep paying out nearly £1000 a week to keep someone locked up?
The bottom line is do you address the problem and cause or slap em down and
pay out for the rest of your life(through taxes).......If that' the way you
wanna go fine... what will you say to the next person who says to you that
maybe, just maybe if you hadn't of thought that way maybe my daughter, son.
mother, father etc would still be alive.
I do understand how you feel but from my experience (some 53 years)
hammering people for their actions doesn't always solve the problem. It
often makes it worse.
Perhaps by looking at it from another direction it will become clear.
If someone goes out and shoplifts because they are short of money, or
doesn't pay something because of a shortage of money the way to address the
problem is not to fine them.......i.e. take money from them thereby
exacerbating the problem. they then are even shorter of money so they go out
and do it again to pay the fine.
Lat year Nottingham County Council spent £13 million on removing dumped cars
etc.....thats all in including, police costs, Fire and rescue service costs,
ambulance, doctors and nurses etc. The fire service have to send out two
crews as one crew has to watch the back of the other as they get stoned and
even have firebombs thrown at them whilst putting out fires.
When you lock these kids up it costs nearly a £1000 a week....... thats
costing you!
How many other crimes are ignored? cyclists break every road rule in the
book, go through lights. ride without lights, they use the roads free(i.e.
no insurance, no tax etc. yet if a pushbike ran over your throat you'd
probably die! we provide bike lanes.....yet don'y charge em for it......and
half the time they ride on the pavement. Horses weigh close to a ton, have
metal shoes, that rip up roads and unlike dogs they can shit massive piles
how they like and guess what..their owners aren't fined.....the list goes
on......I'm not saying they should be penalised I'm just pointing out that
they aren't. The law says dog owners must pick up their shit.......but how
often do they!
We all break the law in some way....yes some more than others....Now I'm not
in anyway religious but the bible says let him without sin cast the first
stone........who's right.....what is best..we can only do what we think is
best/right etc......Nuff said.....
In short, it isn't just for those caught stealing cars/joyriding it is for
all young people and the NVQ training is for any age. Mebbe help them get a
job, or if on low income maintain their cars themselves rather than pay £30
an hour or more to a garage.
So Graham, I could go on (and on and on zzzzzzzzzz..lol) but I won't. If you
are interested in knowing more please get back in touch, I would like to
hear from you.
For now, all the best
Tom
<<<<
This is a story from the Daily Mail [yuk] letters of Tuesday 22/01/2002.
Going to bed the other night I noticed people in my shed stealing things.
I phoned the police but was told no one was in the area to help. They said they would send someone over as soon as possible.
I hung up. A minute later I rang again. "Hello," I said "I called you a minute ago because there were people in my shed. You don't have to hurry now because I've shot them."
Within minutes there were half a dozen police cars in the area, plus helicopters and an armed response unit. They caught the burglars red handed.
One of the officers said "I thought you said you'd shot them."
To which I replied "I thought you said there was no one available."
So what's my point?
I phoned the police a few months back because for 2 Sunday mornings [2-3am] people were "joy-riding" in my road. I said to the police, "someone's doing do-nuts & driving recklessly in my road, come down & sort it out". The police said "we will only come if you either tell us the make & colour of the car or the reg num". There was no way I was going into the street so I said "you must be joking, that's your job, if you come out now you'll catch them at it". Needless to say, they never came. Mmm.
Maybe I should have tried the "I've shot them..." approach.
Going to bed the other night I noticed people in my shed stealing things.
I phoned the police but was told no one was in the area to help. They said they would send someone over as soon as possible.
I hung up. A minute later I rang again. "Hello," I said "I called you a minute ago because there were people in my shed. You don't have to hurry now because I've shot them."
Within minutes there were half a dozen police cars in the area, plus helicopters and an armed response unit. They caught the burglars red handed.
One of the officers said "I thought you said you'd shot them."
To which I replied "I thought you said there was no one available."
So what's my point?
I phoned the police a few months back because for 2 Sunday mornings [2-3am] people were "joy-riding" in my road. I said to the police, "someone's doing do-nuts & driving recklessly in my road, come down & sort it out". The police said "we will only come if you either tell us the make & colour of the car or the reg num". There was no way I was going into the street so I said "you must be joking, that's your job, if you come out now you'll catch them at it". Needless to say, they never came. Mmm.
Maybe I should have tried the "I've shot them..." approach.
[quote
...have to pay £21/hour for driving lessons and can't get a car because of the £thousands insurance (Mainly because of the little bastards on my estate who steal/crash cars every night) and they rub my face in it like this!
Where's the justice?????
Have to say I agree with your statement, I passed my test last Feb. had bout 25 lessons, I was paying £14 per lesson! £21 seems a tad high!!
As for insurance, stick out your first year on a pathetic wee astra, nova, metro, fiesta, with a 1.0/1.1/1.2 engine. Insured Thrid Party only and just don't hit anything!
In a years time, you'll have a lower policy because you'll be considered Experienced!
don't ask me why! Then with the NCB you've got as well, your premium will drop like a stone. last year I had a 1.4 astra Mk2, £1475 as a named driver TPFT. Destroyed the engine, oops. Bought a 1.2 Astra MK2. £909 Third party. Just bought a MK3 Orion LX 1.4. £800 TPFT. No NCB. Just a years experience! £675 discount. Trust me, it's worth it!!
As for this scheme. How many do you have to steal to be a reoffender?? And if I loose my licence, can I offend constantly and then be accepted into this scheme, get a car, insurance, tax, and a licence for just doing what I normally do??
...have to pay £21/hour for driving lessons and can't get a car because of the £thousands insurance (Mainly because of the little bastards on my estate who steal/crash cars every night) and they rub my face in it like this!
Where's the justice?????
Have to say I agree with your statement, I passed my test last Feb. had bout 25 lessons, I was paying £14 per lesson! £21 seems a tad high!!
As for insurance, stick out your first year on a pathetic wee astra, nova, metro, fiesta, with a 1.0/1.1/1.2 engine. Insured Thrid Party only and just don't hit anything!
In a years time, you'll have a lower policy because you'll be considered Experienced!
don't ask me why! Then with the NCB you've got as well, your premium will drop like a stone. last year I had a 1.4 astra Mk2, £1475 as a named driver TPFT. Destroyed the engine, oops. Bought a 1.2 Astra MK2. £909 Third party. Just bought a MK3 Orion LX 1.4. £800 TPFT. No NCB. Just a years experience! £675 discount. Trust me, it's worth it!! As for this scheme. How many do you have to steal to be a reoffender?? And if I loose my licence, can I offend constantly and then be accepted into this scheme, get a car, insurance, tax, and a licence for just doing what I normally do??
Driving Force's Tom wouldn't be associated with the Board of Carlisle F.C. would he?
How many times has this approach been tried for other types of offender/crime and what were the results? Anyone feeling bored enough to do some research?
>> Edited by octane junkie on Wednesday 27th February 11:54
How many times has this approach been tried for other types of offender/crime and what were the results? Anyone feeling bored enough to do some research?
>> Edited by octane junkie on Wednesday 27th February 11:54
I remember reading about a young offender who was sent on an African safari as part of his "rehabilitation"
.This was few years ago and it seems he is still getting locked up...so didn't work in his case.(Except he got a free holiday...along with his probation officers etc ....hmmmmm)
>> Edited by esselte on Wednesday 27th February 12:19
.This was few years ago and it seems he is still getting locked up...so didn't work in his case.(Except he got a free holiday...along with his probation officers etc ....hmmmmm) >> Edited by esselte on Wednesday 27th February 12:19
quote:
Does getting points mean you lose your NCB. I'm 19, never hit anything, but got 6 points within last 6 months. Seriously concerned I won't be able to afford insurance when renewal time comes. Any help greatly appreciated. Cheers
No you do not lose your NCB but the initial premium goes up so the end effect is the same.
Graham, did they *really* write all that.. or was some of it artistic license? I only wonder, after reading the comment about horse *shit* ???!!! 
This is a very tricky subject. How do those of us who pay our way, feel about people stealing. And then getting it for free?
Trouble is, we're onto a loser both ways. If they steal, we pay more insurance. If they get caught, we pay to keep them locked up. And now, we pay for them to have a car, in order not to steal ours !!!
I think execution would be a good solution for the 2nd offense.
But imagine if they put forward execution for speeding? hmmmm. Yet another "thin end of the wedge".
Keep talking!
Carl
This is a very tricky subject. How do those of us who pay our way, feel about people stealing. And then getting it for free?
Trouble is, we're onto a loser both ways. If they steal, we pay more insurance. If they get caught, we pay to keep them locked up. And now, we pay for them to have a car, in order not to steal ours !!!
I think execution would be a good solution for the 2nd offense.
But imagine if they put forward execution for speeding? hmmmm. Yet another "thin end of the wedge".
Keep talking!
Carl
yep that is his full response just cut and paste...
we've bounced a few e-mails today...
I think his idea is probably sound as long as the emphsis for the lessons doing up cars ect is put on people that havent offended and the twerps that do get the shock tactics to go alone with them( although personally i prefer shooting them and then billing the relatives for the bullet)
if it is mainly for the offenders then they can bugger off...
apparently if you steal a car whilst on the scheme you get bumped from it... ( yeah till the next time)
>> Edited by Graham on Wednesday 27th February 16:43
we've bounced a few e-mails today...
I think his idea is probably sound as long as the emphsis for the lessons doing up cars ect is put on people that havent offended and the twerps that do get the shock tactics to go alone with them( although personally i prefer shooting them and then billing the relatives for the bullet)
if it is mainly for the offenders then they can bugger off...
apparently if you steal a car whilst on the scheme you get bumped from it... ( yeah till the next time)
quote:
Graham, did they *really* write all that.. or was some of it artistic license? I only wonder, after reading the comment about horse *shit* ???!!!
This is a very tricky subject. How do those of us who pay our way, feel about people stealing. And then getting it for free?
Trouble is, we're onto a loser both ways. If they steal, we pay more insurance. If they get caught, we pay to keep them locked up. And now, we pay for them to have a car, in order not to steal ours !!!
I think execution would be a good solution for the 2nd offense.
But imagine if they put forward execution for speeding? hmmmm. Yet another "thin end of the wedge".
Keep talking!
Carl
>> Edited by Graham on Wednesday 27th February 16:43
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