RE: Police Chief Receives Summons
Sunday 16th December 2001
Police Chief Receives Summons
Driving without due care and attention?
Discussion
Surely his punishment should be much higher than for a Joe Public as he has the advanced police driving & observation skills and should have been even more aware of his actions.
He would also have been aware of the repercusions on both him and the police force for his stupidity/carelessness!
If I lose control in bad weather because I was going too fast then I an stupid and careless. If he does it he must have been going even faster to loose control as he is obviously a much better driver than me as he is a copper!
He would also have been aware of the repercusions on both him and the police force for his stupidity/carelessness!
If I lose control in bad weather because I was going too fast then I an stupid and careless. If he does it he must have been going even faster to loose control as he is obviously a much better driver than me as he is a copper!
quote:
Surely his punishment should be much higher than for a Joe Public as he has the advanced police driving & observation skills and should have been even more aware of his actions.
He would also have been aware of the repercusions on both him and the police force for his stupidity/carelessness!
If I lose control in bad weather because I was going too fast then I an stupid and careless. If he does it he must have been going even faster to loose control as he is obviously a much better driver than me as he is a copper!
B4 I start I'd just like to say I'm not defending him BUT why should his punishment be more because he has "advanced police driving"? Who knows if he even has police driver training? People who don't bother to take advanced driving lessons should IMHO be punished more. Its not as if there expensive. £26 joining fee, free lessons, £45 for the test.
Visit www.iam.org.uk
It really is worthwhile.
p.s. sorry about the shamless plug
Matt
Edited by mattjbatch on Tuesday 18th December 15:48
I hope the court takes a reasonable view of the case and, having reviewed all the evidence available decides on a fair and appropriate punishment. It's nothing less than we would want for ourselves under the circumstances.
Don't groan with dismay guys, I haven't gone soft with my views on Plod, but I do believe we should not allow ourselves to be drawn down to their vindictive motorist-persecuting level.
Two wrongs don't make a right when all is said and done.
Maybe this plod, having found out how easy it is to make an honest mistake will tell his guys on the beat to take a more rational view when it comes to dealing with us mere mortals.
Either way, his career is effectively over and few of us would actually have to face THAT level of punishment following a bump.
Sorry to be so reasonable
Andy
Don't groan with dismay guys, I haven't gone soft with my views on Plod, but I do believe we should not allow ourselves to be drawn down to their vindictive motorist-persecuting level.
Two wrongs don't make a right when all is said and done.
Maybe this plod, having found out how easy it is to make an honest mistake will tell his guys on the beat to take a more rational view when it comes to dealing with us mere mortals.
Either way, his career is effectively over and few of us would actually have to face THAT level of punishment following a bump.
Sorry to be so reasonable
Andy
why do people always go on and on about the IAM ? everyone I know who's been on one drives like a cretin before AND after.
No one comes back and tells me how good it was, and some of the things taught are laughable.
I challenge an IAM driver to tell PH readers ANYTHING that they did not already know about driving, that makes them;-
a) safer AND
b) smoother AND
c) faster
When you finally struggle to come up with something, I will definately know more than you do - 'cos I have a wealth of experience that means more than some eeejit insisting that "gears are for acceleration, brakes are for slowing".
If you use that particular policy whilst riding fast, you'll die.
C'mon IAM people, enlighten me with something USEFUL..? and if you beleive in all that, I know you won't be able to resist showing off your knowledge.
If you don't beleive in it, then I HAVE WON, and you only prove that the IAM is a load of crap.
Please read this carefully before replying, I don't wanna have to quote myself over and over.
Carl.
No one comes back and tells me how good it was, and some of the things taught are laughable.
I challenge an IAM driver to tell PH readers ANYTHING that they did not already know about driving, that makes them;-
a) safer AND
b) smoother AND
c) faster
When you finally struggle to come up with something, I will definately know more than you do - 'cos I have a wealth of experience that means more than some eeejit insisting that "gears are for acceleration, brakes are for slowing".
If you use that particular policy whilst riding fast, you'll die.
C'mon IAM people, enlighten me with something USEFUL..? and if you beleive in all that, I know you won't be able to resist showing off your knowledge.
If you don't beleive in it, then I HAVE WON, and you only prove that the IAM is a load of crap.
Please read this carefully before replying, I don't wanna have to quote myself over and over.
Carl.I think it is a little harsh Carl. I have applied but not been on any training. Whilst a I agree it may not change my driving I might learn one extra thing which may prove useful. My father did the IAM for bikes and he found that he knew most of it already and he has been riding a long long time. BUT as he said it did no harm in going and he did feel that some of it helped.
We often say in this forum that training is the key. The IAM is one form of that training it may not be the best and I may not use anything that I am taught but to say effectively "I'm already fantastic and I don't need to learn anything more" is really just fooling yourself. We all learn with more experience and if someone else gives a different point of view on your driving it may prove useful.
We often say in this forum that training is the key. The IAM is one form of that training it may not be the best and I may not use anything that I am taught but to say effectively "I'm already fantastic and I don't need to learn anything more" is really just fooling yourself. We all learn with more experience and if someone else gives a different point of view on your driving it may prove useful.
quote:
I challenge an IAM driver to tell PH readers ANYTHING that they did not already know about driving
I'm not an IAM driver, although I did go to the RoSPA equivalent for a while. I would say the main things you should gain from it are: (1) an improved attitude, acknowledging that you have something to learn is the first step to learning. If you think you are already the worlds best driver you are unlikely to improve. Your challenge to tell you something you don't know gives the impression that you feel you are beyond improvement, I'm sure that is not really the case. (2) Increased awareness of the things around you so you anticipate more and react less. As I get older my anticipation is getting better, hopefully making me safer to offset the slowing reactions. The main thing that put me off was the intensely prescriptive attitude to car control (ooh you kept your hand on the gear lever fractionally too long that time, oh dear you didn't do those things in the order they are on this list, changing down two gears at a time slapped wrist, braking and changing gear at the same time you were lucky the car didn't burst into flames). On the other hand I learned a lot, the instructor was noticing far more than I was, and paying attention to things he spotted rather than casually noticing them, and assessing potential hazards much earlier. Plus he taught me how to apply the vanishing point technique *correctly*. I had known about this for years and thought I was using it, but I wasn't. Done right this technique lets you judge how the corner is going to tighten or open up, letting you drive faster safer. Done right it is worth maybe 20 mph out of a corner with no loss of safety. The training made me a little faster and a lot safer, if I could have put up with the prescriptive approach and stuck with it I'm confident I would be a much safer driver by now.
Cheers,
Peter Humphries (and a green V8S)
Im thinking this is almost becoming a bit of a publicity stunt! Now dont get me wrong i not saying the accident or its outcome was intentional
As you have all mentioned 'i bet he gets off with it' etc is the general public response. But imagine a Chief Constable getting nicked by his own boys? surely it could of been swept under the rug?
But think. after he has been prosecuted or not, the fact that police have worked to the letter of the law (in this occasion) will surely look good for the commitment of his staff when dealing with the more trivial offences... result = police win again.
After all, how are a few points on his license really going to affect him.. If im right , Due care and attention is only a endorsable not criminal offence.
As you have all mentioned 'i bet he gets off with it' etc is the general public response. But imagine a Chief Constable getting nicked by his own boys? surely it could of been swept under the rug?
But think. after he has been prosecuted or not, the fact that police have worked to the letter of the law (in this occasion) will surely look good for the commitment of his staff when dealing with the more trivial offences... result = police win again.
After all, how are a few points on his license really going to affect him.. If im right , Due care and attention is only a endorsable not criminal offence.
Sorry, didn't mean to give the impression that I "think I know everything" because I would be the first to admit that I have a lot to learn.
I stand by my criticism of the IAM.
I want to learn new, relevant, and interesting stuff. My quest for new driving/riding technique never ends, and I read up whatever I can.
There is no end to what can be learnt.
But I beleive that the "IAM" can teach me NOTHING.
Sorry if you have a problem with this. Now if you told me to go to a "Rally school" or something similar, I would give this much respect.
Just feel that as an "average" driver, I have no need for "IAM".
Doesn't that make you feel better?
To restate, it wasn't my intent to wind up PH readers, but it was my intention to massively put down the IAM.
They have this annoying attitude that if you don't do it their way, you're doing it wrong !!! b*ll*cks to that, I'll take on any of my IAM work colleagues any day, and win.
Keep learning, Carl
I stand by my criticism of the IAM.
I want to learn new, relevant, and interesting stuff. My quest for new driving/riding technique never ends, and I read up whatever I can.
There is no end to what can be learnt.
But I beleive that the "IAM" can teach me NOTHING.
Sorry if you have a problem with this. Now if you told me to go to a "Rally school" or something similar, I would give this much respect.
Just feel that as an "average" driver, I have no need for "IAM".
Doesn't that make you feel better?
To restate, it wasn't my intent to wind up PH readers, but it was my intention to massively put down the IAM.
They have this annoying attitude that if you don't do it their way, you're doing it wrong !!! b*ll*cks to that, I'll take on any of my IAM work colleagues any day, and win.
Keep learning, Carl
PS:
Observation whilst driving - try riding a bike through a frosty winter, and you get to learn about road surfaces. Likewise summer riding and diesel spills/man hole covers/overbanding on road repairs.
Try going ballistic without getting caught (obviously on suitable roads), also sharpens up your skills a fair bit.
Next, when you're on something as small as a bike, and a Mini can kill you, you tend to develope a "6th sense" about other drivers doing something stupid. And they do, frequently.
Observation whilst driving - try riding a bike through a frosty winter, and you get to learn about road surfaces. Likewise summer riding and diesel spills/man hole covers/overbanding on road repairs.
Try going ballistic without getting caught (obviously on suitable roads), also sharpens up your skills a fair bit.
Next, when you're on something as small as a bike, and a Mini can kill you, you tend to develope a "6th sense" about other drivers doing something stupid. And they do, frequently.
Hertsbiker
You ride bikes, you're not dead yet, therefore you know more already than any IAM member who doesn't/hasn't.
I have to agree than your average IAM member does have a pompous holier than thou attitude. And many of the "proper" ways of doing things are hopelessly antiquated ,and in some cases just plain wrong. Same applies to Roadcraft.
Did you know Jean Alesi drives with both hands at the 12 o clock position. What the hell would IAM or Roadcraft make of this? Are they going to claim Jean is not an advanced and extremely capable driver, in full control of his vehicle?
Arse!
Phil
You ride bikes, you're not dead yet, therefore you know more already than any IAM member who doesn't/hasn't.
I have to agree than your average IAM member does have a pompous holier than thou attitude. And many of the "proper" ways of doing things are hopelessly antiquated ,and in some cases just plain wrong. Same applies to Roadcraft.
Did you know Jean Alesi drives with both hands at the 12 o clock position. What the hell would IAM or Roadcraft make of this? Are they going to claim Jean is not an advanced and extremely capable driver, in full control of his vehicle?
Arse! Phil
hertsbiker.
I'm going through the IAM training at the moment.
Yes the "System Of Car Control" is a prescriptive method and some members can have a "superior" attitude - BUT I have learned things of value.
For the most part my car control was fine before (if not the "System") - OK - but the observation training was very useful and I have definitley improved since starting the programme.
Concrete example: Observation "Links". e.g. Empty bus stop == possible bus ahead. Bins out == possible bin lorry around corner and so on.
Sure - you may have magnificent vehicle control and astonishing powers of observation. *Most* of us can improve these things...especially if we're interested in doing so. Some PH readers may well be - and some will not.
I'm going through the IAM training at the moment.
Yes the "System Of Car Control" is a prescriptive method and some members can have a "superior" attitude - BUT I have learned things of value.
For the most part my car control was fine before (if not the "System") - OK - but the observation training was very useful and I have definitley improved since starting the programme.
Concrete example: Observation "Links". e.g. Empty bus stop == possible bus ahead. Bins out == possible bin lorry around corner and so on.
Sure - you may have magnificent vehicle control and astonishing powers of observation. *Most* of us can improve these things...especially if we're interested in doing so. Some PH readers may well be - and some will not.
quote:
hertsbiker.
I'm going through the IAM training at the moment.
Yes the "System Of Car Control" is a prescriptive method and some members can have a "superior" attitude - BUT I have learned things of value.
For the most part my car control was fine before (if not the "System") - OK - but the observation training was very useful and I have definitley improved since starting the programme.
Concrete example: Observation "Links". e.g. Empty bus stop == possible bus ahead. Bins out == possible bin lorry around corner and so on.
Sure - you may have magnificent vehicle control and astonishing powers of observation. *Most* of us can improve these things...especially if we're interested in doing so. Some PH readers may well be - and some will not.
hi !
like I said, I didn't want to offend the majority.
Observation is 90% of driving. I feel certain that for MOST of PH readers, this comes naturally.
Survival of the fittest applies in cars too, and as most of you have hi-po motors, I deduce that you are very competant people !
BTW I already know all of the observation points that the "A" category gives.
A little known by obvious fact;-
Did you know that ground temperature changes very slowly compared to air - so a sunny day may still have icy roads?
Another:-
Exposed areas, such as ON TOP of bridges can have ice, even when other areas don't.
And another;-
Did you know that water collects in the joins in the road - the thick black lines of pitch, and are very deadly to the biker?
Something for the bikers here;-
Did you know that dependant on the angle of lean of your machine, the overall gearing changes due to the profile of the rear tyre? This can be utilised to gain or lose corner speed.
I could go on. But won't for fear of boring you.
Just wanted to say that I am not a mindless driver like most of them out there!!!
rgds, Carl
PS expect everyone else to do the unexpected, and you won't be disappointed. I therefore routinely consider every other road user to be an idiot, and most of the time it's true!
Edited by hertsbiker on Wednesday 19th December 13:34
The problem with prescriptive methods - and they are everywhere now in business - is they have a dumbing down effect. Its a lowest common denominator thing.
As I tell my clients, if you want to be no better than everyone else then do what everyone else does. To excel you need to differentiate.
Yes, the IAM may turn poor driver into a better one. But adherance to presciptive methods could just as easily turn a good driver into a worse one.
It the view that the IAM will improve everyones driving that gets up peoples noses. People who have managed for a good number of years driving performance vehicles, and more often than not driving without accident, who get more than a little pissed at do-gooders claiming a stint with the IAM will make them better drivers.
Is Shuie an IAM member? Colin McCrae?
Phil
As I tell my clients, if you want to be no better than everyone else then do what everyone else does. To excel you need to differentiate.
Yes, the IAM may turn poor driver into a better one. But adherance to presciptive methods could just as easily turn a good driver into a worse one.
It the view that the IAM will improve everyones driving that gets up peoples noses. People who have managed for a good number of years driving performance vehicles, and more often than not driving without accident, who get more than a little pissed at do-gooders claiming a stint with the IAM will make them better drivers.
Is Shuie an IAM member? Colin McCrae?
Phil
Hertsbiker
heres another - tree lined country lanes in Autumn will be slippy, slippier still on a windy day.
and another - shadows left by trees in Autumn will hold ice late into the morning.
There's probably hundreds more that you don't even think about any more. That's the benefit of experience - provided you learn from it!
Phil
heres another - tree lined country lanes in Autumn will be slippy, slippier still on a windy day.
and another - shadows left by trees in Autumn will hold ice late into the morning.
There's probably hundreds more that you don't even think about any more. That's the benefit of experience - provided you learn from it!
Phil
quote:
Hertsbiker
heres another - tree lined country lanes in Autumn will be slippy, slippier still on a windy day.
and another - shadows left by trees in Autumn will hold ice late into the morning.
There's probably hundreds more that you don't even think about any more. That's the benefit of experience - provided you learn from it!
Phil
Aye !!! this is the point. I haven't done "IAM", but I *know* this stuff already ! sounds like you do too.
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