Discussion
Just a quickie to see if I'm being unreasonable or not.
I bought a Geodesy about five months ago. I was very impressed with both performance and service and have sung their praises loadly since then. However this morning I received a newsletter and an offer to upgrade to the new Geodesy plus. Not a bad thing I thought this must be the new LCD all bells and whistles unit to rival Origin Blue I'd heard was on its way. Errrrrr no its a software patch that gives a few tweeks and a few more adjustable features down the modem all for the bargin price of £50. Now these thing aren't cheap and after the first year the database subscription will be £50/year all that I can live with but shit just about every software manufacturer I've come across would do free patches and minor upgrades for the first year as part of the service and most if you subscribed to "maintenance" continue giving software upgrades for the life of the product. If it was new hardware with more features I'd happily pay a reduced upgrade cost as I'd get something visible for my money. Even bloody Microsoft give away upgrade patches.
Now the question is am I being unreasonable on this or is £50 fair for:
1. Speed Sensitivity. means the unit only alarms if you are breaking the speed limit.
2. Auto Ranging. adjust the distance it starts alarming dependant on you speed.
3. Awareness Beep. Menas it beeps when the first light comes on.
I bought a Geodesy about five months ago. I was very impressed with both performance and service and have sung their praises loadly since then. However this morning I received a newsletter and an offer to upgrade to the new Geodesy plus. Not a bad thing I thought this must be the new LCD all bells and whistles unit to rival Origin Blue I'd heard was on its way. Errrrrr no its a software patch that gives a few tweeks and a few more adjustable features down the modem all for the bargin price of £50. Now these thing aren't cheap and after the first year the database subscription will be £50/year all that I can live with but shit just about every software manufacturer I've come across would do free patches and minor upgrades for the first year as part of the service and most if you subscribed to "maintenance" continue giving software upgrades for the life of the product. If it was new hardware with more features I'd happily pay a reduced upgrade cost as I'd get something visible for my money. Even bloody Microsoft give away upgrade patches.
Now the question is am I being unreasonable on this or is £50 fair for:
1. Speed Sensitivity. means the unit only alarms if you are breaking the speed limit.
2. Auto Ranging. adjust the distance it starts alarming dependant on you speed.
3. Awareness Beep. Menas it beeps when the first light comes on.
Without wishing to make any negative comments about the unit, not having had the chance to try one first hand, I would be somewhat sceptical of relying on the in-built GPS unit to confirm my speed and not beep if it thought I wasn't speeding.
The satellites aren't always "visible" to the unit and sometimes position updates (and hence the speed calculation) are some way off. The speed is calculated by timing how long it takes to get from one position to the next - so if the first position is wrong (say it puts you 20m further up the road than you are) and the second one is also wrong (it puts you 20m back down the road) it will calculate your speed incorrectly and you may be that crucial one mile an hour over the point that triggers the camera.
Without a decent external aerial I wouldn't rely on a simple GPS set to accurately measure speed.
Edited by Nick M (nmilton) on Friday 16th November 10:57
The satellites aren't always "visible" to the unit and sometimes position updates (and hence the speed calculation) are some way off. The speed is calculated by timing how long it takes to get from one position to the next - so if the first position is wrong (say it puts you 20m further up the road than you are) and the second one is also wrong (it puts you 20m back down the road) it will calculate your speed incorrectly and you may be that crucial one mile an hour over the point that triggers the camera.
Without a decent external aerial I wouldn't rely on a simple GPS set to accurately measure speed.
Edited by Nick M (nmilton) on Friday 16th November 10:57
yeah agreed.
I got my mailshot the other day, and I thought that it didn't offer enough for the money, and I did not agree with the silent beeper mode at all !
We all have fast machines of some description, and (for example) I could be 100 yards from a Gatso, give it loads and break the speed limit BEFORE I remembered that the beeper was off.
And you're perfectly right, software upgrades are usually at cost + overheads. I know they have a business to run, but 30 quid would have been steep.
rgd..
I got my mailshot the other day, and I thought that it didn't offer enough for the money, and I did not agree with the silent beeper mode at all !
We all have fast machines of some description, and (for example) I could be 100 yards from a Gatso, give it loads and break the speed limit BEFORE I remembered that the beeper was off.
And you're perfectly right, software upgrades are usually at cost + overheads. I know they have a business to run, but 30 quid would have been steep.
rgd..
Trueish Nick, the Geodesy actually has a light when it loses the satalite which is not that often, it regains contact very quickly and accurately. Also since the US took off the NATO encription that used to reduce GPS accuracy they are now incredible accurate. (remember EVO used GPS to speed test the Tuscan before they broke it)
One other point that you have just reminded of though during the Gulf war the GPS signal was deliberatly scrambled and all coalition forces GPS units had software to read the scrambled signal. Hmmmmmmmm may be relevant today ! always remember the satelites are owned by the US military and they can do with them what they want !
One other point that you have just reminded of though during the Gulf war the GPS signal was deliberatly scrambled and all coalition forces GPS units had software to read the scrambled signal. Hmmmmmmmm may be relevant today ! always remember the satelites are owned by the US military and they can do with them what they want !
quote:
the Geodesy actually has a light when it loses the satalite which is not that often, it regains contact very quickly and accurately
Still relies on line of sight and depending on what software they use it may be able to "guess" where a satellite should be to keep on giving a position (albeit based on maybe 3 satellites instead of 4 or 5).
quote:
Also since the US took off the NATO encription that used to reduce GPS accuracy they are now incredible accurate. (remember EVO used GPS to speed test the Tuscan before they broke it)
Depends on the GPS set and the aeriel - I don't trust GPS to give an accurate speed reading to be honest as it is only a calculated as opposed to a measured value. The two GPS sets on dad's boat can vary by as much as 2 knots (10%) when they're both running at the same time. The speed also fluctuates, sometimes by as much as a knot, even though the speed through the water is constant.
There is still an element of error simply because of the time it takes the signals to get from the satellites to the aerial and for it to be decoded by the GPS set. Yes, they're better than they used to be, but they're no better than 10m accuracy.
quote:
One other point that you have just reminded of though during the Gulf war the GPS signal was deliberatly scrambled and all coalition forces GPS units had software to read the scrambled signal. Hmmmmmmmm may be relevant today ! always remember the satelites are owned by the US military and they can do with them what they want !
Actually the signal was deliberately scrambled before the Gulf war and they had to turn the encryption off because there weren't enough military GPS sets available for the RAF and some of the other allied tank units !! The RAF Jaguars were using civilian GPS sets for much of the Gulf war !!
I know we saw a marked improvement in the performance of GPS when the Gulf was was on as I was sailing around the world at the time and we spoke to some Australian surveyors who were re-surveying Tonga for the first time since Captain Cook did the original one. Even using differential GPS (pin-point accuracy) it wasn't drastically better than just using a normal GPS set for the simple reason that the encryption had been turned off.
Incidentally, to prove technology isn't the be all and end all, they biggest difference they could find when comparing the original survey, using sextants and other conventional surveying equipment, and their one using all the latest differential GPS gear was 10 metres !!
I agree with Nick.I'm a taxi driver in Northampton,(loads of Truvelos),and yes, very occasionally my Geodesy can be 'out' by 100 yards or so.Interestingly,it seems to happen mostly between 11.00 and midnight.I drive approx 150 miles per night in town(!) and know exactly when my lights should go on and off. Because mine was one of the first, my Geodesy unit has to go back for the update! In 2 weeks time I'll be in a 3 series Touring. Get your flame throwers out
Nick good points taken the only bit being at the time of the Gulf War I actually worked on a very small piss pot Island in the middle of the Indian Ocean which happened to have one of the earth stations GEODS for the GPS network. They used to produce signals that would actually say when the signal would be scrambled. The system was "generally downgraded" and all civilian users advised it should not be relied on for the duration. However very often they would scramble the signal totally i.e. it would be lost for several hours for stategic reasons or actually shifted by a set degree without notice. Good for military ops but bad for speed cameras !!!
Anyway back to the point is £50 reasonable.
Anyway back to the point is £50 reasonable.
Well I have to say that the system degradation didn't seem that bad - and there were certainly times when it was very good. I think we only lost the system twice, and both times we were in the middle of the ocean with no immediate danger of hitting anything !!
It was certainly very accurate when we came through the Torres straights on the north coast of Australia, one of the most treacherous bits of sea there is. Oh, and we came through at night, just to make things nice and simple for us
[irrelevant mode]
Where abouts were you based in the Indian ocean ? Quite appropriate, in a tenuous sort of way, that there was a ground station in that neck of the woods, seeing as Arthur C Clarke was one of the first to propose the basics of GPS and he lives in Sri Lanka...
[/irrelevant mode]
It was certainly very accurate when we came through the Torres straights on the north coast of Australia, one of the most treacherous bits of sea there is. Oh, and we came through at night, just to make things nice and simple for us
[irrelevant mode]
Where abouts were you based in the Indian ocean ? Quite appropriate, in a tenuous sort of way, that there was a ground station in that neck of the woods, seeing as Arthur C Clarke was one of the first to propose the basics of GPS and he lives in Sri Lanka...
[/irrelevant mode]
Mel has a pretty good point. Id be willing to bet that aswell as some fancy little extras some program patches will be included to make the unit more relieable. And thats not good to be charging your 'customers' for in any circumstance.
I wonder if the fact that I have found them 6+ cameras, told them about loads of falsies and corrected a GPS pos of a cam that was out by 200 m and I havent received a penny of them means I can have the upgrade for free!. Somehow i doubt it.
As regards to the GPS accuracy thing for those of you who can be arsed reading.
GPS is the US DoDs (so its nothing to do with NATO). There are two types of GPS signal SPS (Standard Positioning Service) and PPS (Precise Positioning Service) All none military receivers get the SPS signal (its a different freq and not encrypted) This is so it can simply be turned off if needed. SPS used have SA (Selective Availability) which is like an introduced offset which meant it could be out by a couply of 100 mtrs. But now that has been removed due to D-GPS (Differential) counteracting the SA. There GPS signal itself should always be perfect and the satelites are spread to make enough visible from any point on the planet.
I suspect the errors the geodesy has will be because of the algorithems and quality of the electronics used in the receiver. As Nick mentioned about the two sets on his dads boat. They will both have different electronics and use similar but different (i.e. more dps) math to get the result.
As for the speed calculated and the position measured. This is also untrue. Both position and speed have to be calculated from the timming data available. A lot of manufacturers dont have level of accuracy in the speed area because its not the main job of the unit just a handy tool.
Anyhow ive gone on far too long and I think it sucks that morpheous can try and charge for that sort of upgrade!
Marv
I wonder if the fact that I have found them 6+ cameras, told them about loads of falsies and corrected a GPS pos of a cam that was out by 200 m and I havent received a penny of them means I can have the upgrade for free!. Somehow i doubt it.
As regards to the GPS accuracy thing for those of you who can be arsed reading.
GPS is the US DoDs (so its nothing to do with NATO). There are two types of GPS signal SPS (Standard Positioning Service) and PPS (Precise Positioning Service) All none military receivers get the SPS signal (its a different freq and not encrypted) This is so it can simply be turned off if needed. SPS used have SA (Selective Availability) which is like an introduced offset which meant it could be out by a couply of 100 mtrs. But now that has been removed due to D-GPS (Differential) counteracting the SA. There GPS signal itself should always be perfect and the satelites are spread to make enough visible from any point on the planet.
I suspect the errors the geodesy has will be because of the algorithems and quality of the electronics used in the receiver. As Nick mentioned about the two sets on his dads boat. They will both have different electronics and use similar but different (i.e. more dps) math to get the result.
As for the speed calculated and the position measured. This is also untrue. Both position and speed have to be calculated from the timming data available. A lot of manufacturers dont have level of accuracy in the speed area because its not the main job of the unit just a handy tool.
Anyhow ive gone on far too long and I think it sucks that morpheous can try and charge for that sort of upgrade!
Marv
Back to the original question.
Its not worth £50 as i don't think the features are really that great, £50 for 1 beep, no beep if not speeding and a range auto-decrease.. whats the point?
Though saying that, is the re-radiating Antenna really worth £75? Is it not just an arial that picks up a signal from a different area of the car and the other end of the antenna sits on top of the Geo to give it signal? Surely a normal arial would do this? and could it be used with detectos? to increase their signal strength?
Its not worth £50 as i don't think the features are really that great, £50 for 1 beep, no beep if not speeding and a range auto-decrease.. whats the point?
Though saying that, is the re-radiating Antenna really worth £75? Is it not just an arial that picks up a signal from a different area of the car and the other end of the antenna sits on top of the Geo to give it signal? Surely a normal arial would do this? and could it be used with detectos? to increase their signal strength?
No a normal aerial wouldnt do this. The re-radiating antenna is an active device. It has a normal GPS aerial connected to an amplifier tunned to the GPS frequency (powered by a cig socket) then the output is simply sent to another aerial somewhere near the GEOD. Not only that it works for othere GPS devices.
The GPS signal is so weak that it only takes a few centimeters of water to totally block the signal...
As for being woth 75 nicker? well that depends how much you want to not have the unit on your dash
The GPS signal is so weak that it only takes a few centimeters of water to totally block the signal...
As for being woth 75 nicker? well that depends how much you want to not have the unit on your dash
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