Am I liable for this debt someone else has incurred?.
Discussion
Backgound:
I am (was) the person of contact for a now deceased friend for Equiniti Armed forces pensions. He lived abroad and was married abroad, never came back to the UK since 03.
He died last year but there were AFPS overpayments to his account of around £1800 due to a delay of notification by his widow.
Equiniti have said via a letter addressed to me:
"As previously explained, as payment of AFPS benefits are made from public funds and the payment is not part of the estate, EQ Paymaster are required to seek recovery from you,I must therefore ask that you arrange for the sum of £1800 to be repaid". (then goes on to list bank details).
This is the second letter I've had from them, I have already replied along the lines of I am not a relative and haven't spoken to him for almost a year before he died. I'm not the executor, and have never had a penny from Equiniti myself nor would I be entitled to any.
Any idea of how I should reply?. Would a call to them maybe clarify the situation - or am I liable?. (No idea as to why though).
I am (was) the person of contact for a now deceased friend for Equiniti Armed forces pensions. He lived abroad and was married abroad, never came back to the UK since 03.
He died last year but there were AFPS overpayments to his account of around £1800 due to a delay of notification by his widow.
Equiniti have said via a letter addressed to me:
"As previously explained, as payment of AFPS benefits are made from public funds and the payment is not part of the estate, EQ Paymaster are required to seek recovery from you,I must therefore ask that you arrange for the sum of £1800 to be repaid". (then goes on to list bank details).
This is the second letter I've had from them, I have already replied along the lines of I am not a relative and haven't spoken to him for almost a year before he died. I'm not the executor, and have never had a penny from Equiniti myself nor would I be entitled to any.
Any idea of how I should reply?. Would a call to them maybe clarify the situation - or am I liable?. (No idea as to why though).
Did you tell them you are not the executor/s, it's not clear from your post if you actually told them that.
I'd say the executors need to step up and deal with this, unless there is some sort of contract between you and the pension company that is implicit in the 'person of contact' relationship.
I'd say the executors need to step up and deal with this, unless there is some sort of contract between you and the pension company that is implicit in the 'person of contact' relationship.
GT9 said:
Did you tell them you are not the executor/s, it's not clear from your post if you actually told them that.
I'd say the executors need to step up and deal with this, unless there is some sort of contract between you and the pension company that is implicit in the 'person of contact' relationship.
sorry, yes, I've clearly explained to them I am not the executor of the estate, which has already been settled to his widow.I'd say the executors need to step up and deal with this, unless there is some sort of contract between you and the pension company that is implicit in the 'person of contact' relationship.
As for any contract, I've never signed or agreed anything with Equiniti apart from being named as point of contact for mailing preferences on his behalf - so letters concerning him are in my name and addressed to me.
A person of contact is what - literally someone he put down as a point of contact? You're not a relative, not had power of attorney, are not the executor and at not even a beneficiary of his will. Your only duty (using the term lightly) is to direct them to someone who can help them further.
Point them towards the executor, solicitor, his widow or other relevant person, and tell them it's nothing to do with you and to f
k off. Okay, not literally. Then be done.
ChatGPT is really helpful in drafting polite yet direct correspondence.
Point them towards the executor, solicitor, his widow or other relevant person, and tell them it's nothing to do with you and to f
k off. Okay, not literally. Then be done. ChatGPT is really helpful in drafting polite yet direct correspondence.
Thanks for the replies so far, for clarity I've never received any monies on his behalf, nor have I been a beneficiary of his estate, nor have I managed anything apart from sticking a letter or two into a jiffy bag and sending it abroad.
Maybe they think I'm next of kin or a beneficiary, but as a non relative and having never received the monies they're on about, I think they're just angling and having spent an hour or so searching AI and google, I am pretty sure I'm not liable at all. The over-payments went into his account direct from them.
I'll call them tomorrow as my letter which I sent in January probably didn't get read.
Maybe they think I'm next of kin or a beneficiary, but as a non relative and having never received the monies they're on about, I think they're just angling and having spent an hour or so searching AI and google, I am pretty sure I'm not liable at all. The over-payments went into his account direct from them.
I'll call them tomorrow as my letter which I sent in January probably didn't get read.
No, you have no legal requirement under any circumstance to pay anyhting.
I hope in saying you are not the executor you passed on the full details of who WAS the executor to them.
Any power of attorney anyone might have had ceases immediately upon death under UK law. No idea how it all works in other countries or what is their equivalent.
As he lived abroad and presumably had no UK assets obviously his estate and the due process in clearing it up and giving the monies to whom the will says, paying any tax due and so on are subject to the laws of that country and not the UK.... and to add I've no idea how debts not discovered or signaled to the executor in time or indeed anytime are dealt with in that country. Even more messy as they are, to the executor, foreign debts
In the Uk if there are no assets to pays the debts the debts vanish as the estate is insolvent. I know that in Japan beneficienary of an estate inherit the debts as well so if there are insufficient assets to pay the debts the beneficiary(s) end up paying!
I'd continue to respond as others have indicated. You are not the executor of the estate and that they should direct all their correspondence to ....and supply the name/address etc of the executor. If you do not know who was the executor then all you can do is supply the contact details of the widow while explaining much as you did in your question that this is the only point of contact you had for them.
When dealing with these matters as executor I always preferred written conversations so there was a record of who said what when rather than the highly deniable telephone conversation which one party at least misinterpreted....!
I hope in saying you are not the executor you passed on the full details of who WAS the executor to them.
Any power of attorney anyone might have had ceases immediately upon death under UK law. No idea how it all works in other countries or what is their equivalent.
As he lived abroad and presumably had no UK assets obviously his estate and the due process in clearing it up and giving the monies to whom the will says, paying any tax due and so on are subject to the laws of that country and not the UK.... and to add I've no idea how debts not discovered or signaled to the executor in time or indeed anytime are dealt with in that country. Even more messy as they are, to the executor, foreign debts
In the Uk if there are no assets to pays the debts the debts vanish as the estate is insolvent. I know that in Japan beneficienary of an estate inherit the debts as well so if there are insufficient assets to pay the debts the beneficiary(s) end up paying!
I'd continue to respond as others have indicated. You are not the executor of the estate and that they should direct all their correspondence to ....and supply the name/address etc of the executor. If you do not know who was the executor then all you can do is supply the contact details of the widow while explaining much as you did in your question that this is the only point of contact you had for them.
When dealing with these matters as executor I always preferred written conversations so there was a record of who said what when rather than the highly deniable telephone conversation which one party at least misinterpreted....!
U586 said:
In the Uk if there are no assets to pays the debts the debts vanish as the estate is insolvent.
Firstly “Top lurking”Only thing I’d question though is, this debt was incurred after the point of death, so does it form part of the estate?
I think they’re correct to ask for it back, however if it was me & I was not an executor with that responsibility, I’d be replying & saying “I was a mail forwarder for my friend, I sent his mail “here “ but as they’’ve now passed I can’t be sure what’s happening . (I wouldn’t be helping them with a contact detail to chase).
When my mother died a few years ago, I registered her death. The registrar explained about the 'Tell Us Once' process whereby all affected government bodies were informed. She also said that DWP were the first to be told. Well, a few weeks later, I got a letter from DWP, expressing sympathy, but stating that they had a responsibility to the tax payer to cover the (one week!) overpayment of pension.
The tone of the letter was more in hope than expectation. As I had informed the registrar within the legal time, I did not reply, but kept the letter, and later binned it.
The tone of the letter was more in hope than expectation. As I had informed the registrar within the legal time, I did not reply, but kept the letter, and later binned it.
On the face of it, I would suggest that you're not liable. Who is liable will depend on whether there was a will, whether that will named executors and whether they're still around. If no will, rules of intestacy apply in the UK, but if resident elsewhere, other rules might apply.
The situation might be further complicated if abroad because there might have been a UK will, and/or a foreign will. One might cancel the other, depending how/when written.
I would suggest writing to Equiniti (keeping a copy) by recorded delivery, stating that you're not an executor, have not applied for Letters of Administration, are not a beneficiary of the estate and are not responsible for dealing with the estate, simply a point of contact. Most likely his wife, or other relatives, will have responsibility for administering the estate. It might help to advise them of the contact details you had for wife and/or the forwarding address you had and that all enquiries should be sent to that address.
I wonder whether there is more to your friend's situation than meets the eye, ie keeping a UK-contact address for some reason. That's speculation on my part but might now be a complicating factor. It is right that Equiniti seek return of overpaid funds and normally it would be a fairly straightforward process.
Have you ever signed anything with Equiniti when being named as 'contact'? If so, that might change my opinion.
The situation might be further complicated if abroad because there might have been a UK will, and/or a foreign will. One might cancel the other, depending how/when written.
I would suggest writing to Equiniti (keeping a copy) by recorded delivery, stating that you're not an executor, have not applied for Letters of Administration, are not a beneficiary of the estate and are not responsible for dealing with the estate, simply a point of contact. Most likely his wife, or other relatives, will have responsibility for administering the estate. It might help to advise them of the contact details you had for wife and/or the forwarding address you had and that all enquiries should be sent to that address.
I wonder whether there is more to your friend's situation than meets the eye, ie keeping a UK-contact address for some reason. That's speculation on my part but might now be a complicating factor. It is right that Equiniti seek return of overpaid funds and normally it would be a fairly straightforward process.
Have you ever signed anything with Equiniti when being named as 'contact'? If so, that might change my opinion.
If you don’t want the hassle or time spent on a phone call try this email address.
veteransukpensions@equiniti.com.
As already answered you are not liable if you were neither previously POA / LPA ( both would be in effect cancelled in any case at death ) or Executor.
A point of contact is just that.
Just politely tell them that and if you do know who the Executor was I would include their contact details.
veteransukpensions@equiniti.com.
As already answered you are not liable if you were neither previously POA / LPA ( both would be in effect cancelled in any case at death ) or Executor.
A point of contact is just that.
Just politely tell them that and if you do know who the Executor was I would include their contact details.
So, many thanks everyone for your replies. by way of update, I had a phone call with Equiniti this morning to a very helpful person, but as she advised, I've also sent a recorded delivery letter to the effects of her and fellow PH member's advice.
It transpires that because I'm point of contact (POC), they assumed that I was the "informer" of my friend's passing. It also transpires that POC is a nomination process rather than an acceptance process, thus once nominated it's automatically assumed the person accepts or has accepted to act in such a role. No signature is required nor is any verification, it is (was at the time) taken upon the nominee that everything is in place.
It is also the default position for any "recovery" demands or emails - which in itself is also logical I guess ,when dealing with automated replies and positions.
NOTE: This is NOT a legal position, nor does it have or allow anyone who is nominated as POC to speak or act upon the behalf of the individual receiving the pension in any manner.
The current (automated) system assumes that the POC is also the informant in case of a person or member dying, which, on the face of it, is also logical.
I mentioned the two magic words, "liability" and "harassment", but doing so in a polite manner, as the lady was being really kind and helpful, and was on my side.
It was agreed that I am not liable for any debt, and I asked for it to be communicated in writing, but they could not at this point as she could not authorise such an instruction, however, it was a recorded phone call. The lady explained that I should take note of the time and date of the call, reference it in a written letter and explain my position which indemnifies me of the debts and gave me a case reference number to quote and also what she noted on the file.
She really couldn't have done much more for me, told me they are standard worded PC issued letters and at best, hopeful in getting a settlement. She has elevated it, and if I get any threatening letters to repeat, by writing , what I have already stated, because the system tends to dictate things rather than the individual.
as an aside , it was really nice to talk to someone so polite and helpful, understanding and willing to really put the effort in on my behalf , so Angela, if you;re reading this, the first bottle of Prosecco is on me
It transpires that because I'm point of contact (POC), they assumed that I was the "informer" of my friend's passing. It also transpires that POC is a nomination process rather than an acceptance process, thus once nominated it's automatically assumed the person accepts or has accepted to act in such a role. No signature is required nor is any verification, it is (was at the time) taken upon the nominee that everything is in place.
It is also the default position for any "recovery" demands or emails - which in itself is also logical I guess ,when dealing with automated replies and positions.
NOTE: This is NOT a legal position, nor does it have or allow anyone who is nominated as POC to speak or act upon the behalf of the individual receiving the pension in any manner.
The current (automated) system assumes that the POC is also the informant in case of a person or member dying, which, on the face of it, is also logical.
I mentioned the two magic words, "liability" and "harassment", but doing so in a polite manner, as the lady was being really kind and helpful, and was on my side.
It was agreed that I am not liable for any debt, and I asked for it to be communicated in writing, but they could not at this point as she could not authorise such an instruction, however, it was a recorded phone call. The lady explained that I should take note of the time and date of the call, reference it in a written letter and explain my position which indemnifies me of the debts and gave me a case reference number to quote and also what she noted on the file.
She really couldn't have done much more for me, told me they are standard worded PC issued letters and at best, hopeful in getting a settlement. She has elevated it, and if I get any threatening letters to repeat, by writing , what I have already stated, because the system tends to dictate things rather than the individual.
as an aside , it was really nice to talk to someone so polite and helpful, understanding and willing to really put the effort in on my behalf , so Angela, if you;re reading this, the first bottle of Prosecco is on me
Edited by texaxile on Thursday 12th March 21:01
Edited by texaxile on Thursday 12th March 21:06
A good result and thanks for updating.
It still might a while to finalise things as letters have a habit of crossing in the post, particularly when system-generated, but at least you now know where you stand. It makes a change to be able to speak with a real person, rather than navigating online bots
It still might a while to finalise things as letters have a habit of crossing in the post, particularly when system-generated, but at least you now know where you stand. It makes a change to be able to speak with a real person, rather than navigating online bots
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